Out of all my steam engines I have, I almost always have the speaker face the coal load. Only exception was the B&O EM-1 I have. There are holes in the tender floor for the speaker. I drilled small enough holes in the coal load to not be noticeable at all. Sounds great!
BumpyJack68 Another source for cardboard rolls is the roll aluminium foil comes on. 25mm id. 28mm od. $.02
Another source for cardboard rolls is the roll aluminium foil comes on. 25mm id. 28mm od. $.02
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
emman Rich, Before I attempted my first steam locomotive sound installation, I read a lot of forums, boards, etc., and watched videos on where to mount the speaker. I tried to put a 28mm high bass speaker in the smokebox of an IHC 4-8-2 so the sound would come from where it would be generated. After quite a few tries, I couldn't get it to go, so I went with putting it in the tender along with the TSU-1000. For an enclosure, I used a cardboard tube from a Press and Seal roll. It's much smaller than the ones for paper towels or TP and fits a 28mm speaker without fairings or other modifications. I cut the tube to a length that would fit in the tender and just used masking tape to attach the speaker to the end closest to the rear of the tender. The speaker points into the tube. The open end of the tube is pointed toward the front of the tender. The sound exits only through the small opening where the tender pickup wires had a two wire quick connector to the motor in the boiler. The volume is great and the tone deep. Possibly an option to consider. And...no coal loads or tender floors were harmed in the process of this installation. This is my first attempt a posting pictures, so let's hope it works. Emman https://www.flickr.com/photos/128969588@N03/16110132760/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/128969588@N03/16111354619/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/128969588@N03/15675085214/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/128969588@N03/16271562676/
Rich,
Before I attempted my first steam locomotive sound installation, I read a lot of forums, boards, etc., and watched videos on where to mount the speaker. I tried to put a 28mm high bass speaker in the smokebox of an IHC 4-8-2 so the sound would come from where it would be generated. After quite a few tries, I couldn't get it to go, so I went with putting it in the tender along with the TSU-1000. For an enclosure, I used a cardboard tube from a Press and Seal roll. It's much smaller than the ones for paper towels or TP and fits a 28mm speaker without fairings or other modifications. I cut the tube to a length that would fit in the tender and just used masking tape to attach the speaker to the end closest to the rear of the tender. The speaker points into the tube. The open end of the tube is pointed toward the front of the tender. The sound exits only through the small opening where the tender pickup wires had a two wire quick connector to the motor in the boiler. The volume is great and the tone deep. Possibly an option to consider. And...no coal loads or tender floors were harmed in the process of this installation.
This is my first attempt a posting pictures, so let's hope it works.
Emman
This is an unusual install but looks like it may work for my Rivarossi Big Boy. I installed a Tsunami decoder in the tender (not easy to get tender front panel off?) and wound up drilling holes in the tender front end panel and mounted the high bass speaker to the back of the end panel. The tender floor has steel plates riveted to it for weight and I didn't want to drill holes through both metal and plastic. It sounds OK but doesn't have the deep bass sound I was hoping for. I think I may try your method with a cardboard tube and see if it doesn't improve the sound.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
snjroySorry, i forgot about this thread.. Sound from an opening in front of the tender works fine for me. But there are a lot of factors here, including which decoder you are using... Simon
Hi Snjroy!
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Mark R.
Over sensative hearing is not my problem! Two years in the U.S. ARMY running large generators out in the field, 35 years in the machine trades (Metal Stamping) with the first 4 years before hearing protection was recommended/required and a family history of hearing loss, that is not and will not be my problem.
I do like to have clue what I'm doing, when I do something and the instructions for the decoder I'm installing are very lacking in information on the enclosure/baffle.
Mark R. I've always been a bigger / bester / faster kind of person and my OCD tends to kick in with anything I start playing with. Sorry for getting all involved - it's just what I do .... Mark.
I've always been a bigger / bester / faster kind of person and my OCD tends to kick in with anything I start playing with. Sorry for getting all involved - it's just what I do ....
Mark.
Rich
Alton Junction
Mark:
I wasn't aiming my comment at anyone in particular, and certainly not at you. I was simply trying to convey to NP 2626 that he didn't need to worry about getting things exact, except maybe making sure the enclosure is air tight.
Sorry if my comment came out the wrong way.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter I think Mike has hit the nail on the head: No need to overthink things. Dave
I think Mike has hit the nail on the head: No need to overthink things.
Lotsa room in this hobby for all of us ! While I have installed literally hundreds of decoders for my clients, I only have one of my own that I use as a test bed.
I'm still looking for that silver bullet that will give me sound that I really like. The decoders have the potential (ever play one through an amplified 8 inch speaker ?), I'm just not fully satisfied with my designs just yet. Currently playing with some wave tubes. I think they have a lot of potential (think Bose Wave Radio), but tuning the tube is a real head-ache.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I've taken the little bit of information I gleaned from these discussions, made an incloser from wood and I guess we'll just see what it sounds like, when I get done.
mlehman Mark R. While these ARE all facts in good speaker / enclosure design, will YOU hear the difference ? .... maybe .... maybe not. Yeah, that's really is the bottom line with this issue. If it makes a difference to you, then it's worth it to pursue a difficult install. On the other hand, you often get decent sound with just the simplest of solutions. Then it's just not worth the trouble to overthink there things. In many cases, slap a speaker in and go. You can always upgrade later if it doesn't please once you've got the rest of the bugs chased down.
Mark R. While these ARE all facts in good speaker / enclosure design, will YOU hear the difference ? .... maybe .... maybe not.
Yeah, that's really is the bottom line with this issue. If it makes a difference to you, then it's worth it to pursue a difficult install. On the other hand, you often get decent sound with just the simplest of solutions. Then it's just not worth the trouble to overthink there things. In many cases, slap a speaker in and go. You can always upgrade later if it doesn't please once you've got the rest of the bugs chased down.
And that's a problem I have personally .... over-sensitive hearing. I can hear a lot of things most people can't.
I once had a car with one of the first digital dashboards and I could hear the display "singing" - drove me nuts. Nobody at the dealership could hear what I was hearing. Ended up getting rid of the car because I couldn't tolerate the noise.
So, I guess I'm on the high end of the scale when it comes to being overly fussy about sound.
Mark R.While these ARE all facts in good speaker / enclosure design, will YOU hear the difference ? .... maybe .... maybe not.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
There is such a thing as too big of an enclosure as well. The speaker needs to build a back pressure in the enclose - that's why it needs to be sealed air tight. If there is too much volume of air, the tiny speaker can't compress anything. If the speaker enclosure is too small, these tiny speakers don't have enough power to compress what little air there is. The real trick is finding that sweet spot.
The theory behind it all, simply put, is that when the speaker receives a negative throw, it pulls inward, compressing the air in the enclosure. When the speaker releases and pushes outward the compressed air in the enclosure helps to push the speaker cone outward improving the efficiency of the speaker.
Without this compression, the speaker is relying solely on the stiffness of the cone itself to push the sound waves forward.
There are SO many variables, it's almost impossible to calculate the precise volume of the enclosure without knowing the very specifics of the speker in question .... which we don't have. The material the cone is made of, the material the cone surround (if any) is made of, the shape of the speaker and the flexibility of the cone all play into how much air the cone can move. The more air it can move, the larger the enclosure "can" be.
Round speakers will always be more efficient than a rectangular speaker because the movement of the cone surface is equal around the entire perimeter. The cone on a rectangular speaker is tighter on the sides than it is lengthwise, so the sound will be slightly distorted. Two 16mm round speakers are much more efficient than a single 16mm X 32mm speaker in the same enclosure.
Then there is the shape of the enclosure. A rectangular enclosure is more efficient than a square or round one. A round speaker in a rectangular enclosure will work better than a round speaker in a square or round enclosure.
While these ARE all facts in good speaker / enclosure design, will YOU hear the difference ? .... maybe .... maybe not. Everyones hearing is different and what sounds good to you may not to me. To some people, if it makes sound, they are happy. Others can hear if it is tinny, or has an odd frequency caused by the material the enclosure is made of. Like tuning in the radio station on an old transistor radio - you can just tell when it is right.
I have added all different types of speakers and enclosures to my brass fleet. Most of my locos are small ho scale locos with relatively small areas in the tenders for the following items: decoder, keep alive, speaker and maybe an enclosure. As far as what sounds best, I have found that the bigger speakers with an enclosure win hands down but….there are a large number of variables when installing speakers in a tender that can make identical speaker set ups sound very different in different locos. I usually mount the speaker facing down. In most installs you won’t have room to make a lot of adjustments. About 1/3 of my installs use the tender shell as the enclosure due to lack of space for an enclosure, and honestly, some of them sound better than the installs with enclosures.I have mounted four speakers in non-downward facing positions. One was an old PFM side ported speaker (looks like a metal matchbox). It sounded great with holes in the bottom of the tender but the speaker port was facing horizontally. The other two installs were facing up. One was in a Spectrum shay. I improved the sound by placing a piece of plastic directly over the speaker grille and left an 1/8” space for the sound to escape to the side. Another install in a Spectrum 4-6-0 tender (the bigger tender) was done the same way as the shay with lots of holes in the tender side. It sounds very good.To those of you looking into what kind of enclosure to build – there are lots of commercially available enclosures designed to fit the speakers being sold for this purpose – very easy call Tony’s and ask. As for how big to build it, as big as you can make fit – that is trickier than it looks. I ordered a variety of sizes that I thought might fit and choose the speaker depending on the space available in the specific tender (small brass-not much). As you do your installs, don’t forget that the wires from the decoder and the routing and soldered/shrink coated connections will take up more space than you think…
These two photos show an install into a PFM 2-6-2 brass tender shell. The top shows the components Speaker/enclosure, tsu 750 and a keep alive, the bottom shows the install. Would a larger speaker sound better? Yes. Will it fit?? Probably not.
This photo shows a TSU install in a Spectrum 2-8-0 vandy tender. Speaker is un-baffled facing sideways into the square box. Holes were drilled in the side and bottom of the box – this one sounds OK. This photo was taken before I crammed a keep alive into the tender.You will have to improvise and adapt things to fit…That is part of the fun and also why you couldn’t pay me enough to do this work for someone else :-0
Have fun,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Dave, thanks very much. However, I already have the speaker for the installation I'm working on at present. So I'm just interested in how big to make my wood enclosure for this set-up.
The honest to gosh truth is, like everything in todays world, I'm finding the technology to be passing me by so quickly that all I end up being, is confused! I have two steamers that I will install sound into and then I think I'm done attempting to install sound in anything and will buy sound equipped locos thereafter.
NP 2626:
From what I have read from the supposed experts, when you are dealing with a standard cone style speaker bigger is better both in terms of speaker size and enclosure size. Of course you are limited by the available space, but I have seen installations where the whole shell, or most thereof, was used as an enclosure. If you want to build your own enclosures for round speakers I have found that the bottom end of an appropriately sized pill bottle works very well. Square speaker enclosures can be made with simple styrene sheet.
However times have changed and there are a few newer developments which should be considered. For one, bass reflex speakers are available for HO installations. Here is one example from Zimo:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Zimo-Bassreflex-Speaker-p/zmo-ls2040v.htm
I haven't tried one as of yet. Maybe somebody who has will chime in.
Another change is the introduction of sugar cube or iPhone5 speakers. I have shifted to using them in pairs, wired in parallel to create 4 ohms impedance, with Loksound Select decoders. I am very pleased with the performance and their size makes them easy to fit in. Streamlined Backshop has done some research with them. Their conclusions were that having no enclosure was a non-starter, but smaller enclosures seemed to work as well as somewhat larger enclosures. The trick seems to be to have the enclosure sealed as tightly to the speaker frame as possible. Any sort of flexible gasket seems to interfere with sound quality. Here is the link to their speaker infornation. You can get an idea of enclosure sizing from the pics.
http://sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html
http://sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/wiringmultispeakers.html
Hope this helps a bit.
At any rate, I need to know how much, if any room should be provide in the enclosure (Baffle?) once again.
I suspect that given the longer relative wavelengths for low frequency sounds and the very small internal measurements of the typical HO scale speaker system porting the enclosure will offer very minor if any gain. Porting likely works better when things are bigger.
If you loook inside the speaker cabinet, that's not just a hole. There's a complex path between the rear of the speaker and that hole.
There are two schools of thought with speakers, one that says everything should be sealed up tight, and another that says the bass port type are better. My subwoofer with my TV has a port, the center speakers are sealed. Without doing a lot of math, my gut says the port is superior for low frequency reproduction because otherwise you have a lot of air compression on the back side of the spekaer cone, which makes it harder to move to full extension - and equally a vacuum when it travels in the opposite direction. Adding the complex path to a port allows air movement without directly allowing 180 degree out of phase sounds to come out and cancel the speaker's sounds.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
So, is it important to have some room in the speaker enclosure; or, should there be a minimum amount of room.
Maybe unrelated to this line of thought and possibly old technology, my stereo speakers which were new in 1971 have a base reflex hole in them, true the hole is on the face of the speaker. However, I should think this would letting "out of phase sound" out of the speaker. A base reflex hole would be contrary to the thinking for speaker enclosures for sound systems on model locomotives!
At any rate, I need to know how much if any room should be provide in the enclosure (Baffle?).
hon30critter FWIW: I have installed speakers in two tenders where I drilled a large number of small holes (#68 or so) through the coal load so the speakers faced out the top. Maybe my eyes are no good, but I have a hard time spotting the holes even when the locomotive is standing still. I think the trick is to drill the holes in the crevices between the 'chunks' of coal so they are hidden in the shadows and masked by the glint of the coal. ... Dave
FWIW:
I have installed speakers in two tenders where I drilled a large number of small holes (#68 or so) through the coal load so the speakers faced out the top. Maybe my eyes are no good, but I have a hard time spotting the holes even when the locomotive is standing still. I think the trick is to drill the holes in the crevices between the 'chunks' of coal so they are hidden in the shadows and masked by the glint of the coal.
...
This. Worked well for me.
I am talking about plastic locos and tenders, and I agree with you that the installation of the sound decoder will add to the resale value. My only point is that any drilling into the tender will deface it somewhat, so one better not be a hacker or klutz.
richhotrain Wherever you drill those holes in the tender, you are "damaging" the loco in the sense that you have altered its appearance. So, it better be done in a way that it does not adversely affect resale value if you ever plan to sell your locomotive. Rich
Wherever you drill those holes in the tender, you are "damaging" the loco in the sense that you have altered its appearance. So, it better be done in a way that it does not adversely affect resale value if you ever plan to sell your locomotive.
Round holes in the bottom of the tender weaken the tender’s structure very slightly. If you’re a hacker and can’t get a drill to drill round holes; or a klutz at using tools, possibly it could affect the loco’s value. However, the sound system should significantly add value to the loco, when it’s time to sell.
I don’t see holes in the bottom of the tender as a problem. However, even if they do detract from its’ value, it’s my loco and I will do what I want with them and I will value a sound equipped locomotive as having greater value (to me) than one which doesn't.
gmpullman Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall... Lennon-McCartney Ed
Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall...
Lennon-McCartney
Ed
Well, it IS a Hall class...