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Keep Alive Devices.

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, December 6, 2014 12:59 PM

Multiple ideas in one paragraph

1. The CurrentKeeper likely implements a resistor and diode inrush limiters, like the TCS KeepAlive and like shown on Marcus' site

2. The stock capacitor on Tsunami does not have inrush protection (reason for the ...)

3. And that one - meaning the stock capacitor - is only for the sound and does nothing for the motor.

           --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by woodone on Saturday, December 6, 2014 12:57 PM

Talking about Keep-Alives. I have a Lenz Silver-Mini-W decoder that I need to add a Keep-Alive to. Anyone know where I might find some information on doing that? L9ooking for the grond on the decoder.  Hope I did not hijack the thread. 

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Posted by NP2626 on Saturday, December 6, 2014 12:44 PM

Randy,  Reading your post over for the third time, it still seems to me that you are stating the Current Keeper will only continue the sound, if power is lost. Obviously that isn't what you meant; so, thanks for clarifying.

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, December 6, 2014 10:36 AM

 You misread what I said. The CurrentKeeper runs the whole thing - motor and sounds. The small capacitor that comes with the Tsunami only runs the sound. The connection for the CurrentKeeper is made to the decoder like the DIY version shown on Marcus' site. The stock capacitor is only connected to the sound processor.

                  --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by NP2626 on Saturday, December 6, 2014 8:54 AM

rrinker

The CurrentKeeper, like the TCS KeepAlive, probably has the same diode/resistor arrangement shown on Marcus' site which limits the current going in to the caps but allows free flow out when the decoder needs to draw power. Now the stock capacitor that is included with the Tsunami, on the other hand... and that one only serves to power the sound system, not provide motor power.

                  --Randy

Randy, You should probably take a look at the You-Tube video for the 810149 Current Keeper on the website for this product at: http://www.soundtraxx.com/access/wiring.php  

It certainly looks like the loco in the video keeps on chugging along. 

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by rrinker on Friday, December 5, 2014 6:59 AM

The CurrentKeeper, like the TCS KeepAlive, probably has the same diode/resistor arrangement shown on Marcus' site which limits the current going in to the caps but allows free flow out when the decoder needs to draw power. Now the stock capacitor that is included with the Tsunami, on the other hand... and that one only serves to power the sound system, not provide motor power.

                  --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by NP2626 on Friday, December 5, 2014 5:42 AM

I asked George Bogatiuk of Soundtraxx if Soundtraxx's "Current Keeper" required extra power while programing their Tsunami Sound Decoders and he said: "No. Processor needs same amount.  Keeper has slow-charge circuitry to help minimize its impact on power supplies..."  However, to program a Tsunami  decoder on the Program Track, I do need Soundtraxx's PTB-100, Program Track Booster!

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, December 4, 2014 4:32 PM

 An interview with Matt Herman from ESU in the latest issue of that free online magazine explains a lot - mainly that Loksound decoders switch off the audio amplifier when on the program track so they don't need any power boosters to program.

               --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by NP2626 on Thursday, December 4, 2014 10:34 AM

Glad your NCE DCC equipment works well for you. 

My Digitrax has always worked well for me; too, until I bought a loco with a Tsunami sound decoder that I guess needs the extra power in the form of Soundtraxx's PTB-100 Program Track Booster.  I can't fault Digitrax for not considering that some sound decoders in the future would need extra programing track power.

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, December 4, 2014 10:00 AM

Same here. My Power Cab always does the job.

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by NP2626 on Thursday, December 4, 2014 6:57 AM

Marty C

One other thing I failed to mention. Unlike some of the commenters I have never had a problem programming decoders with keep alives either on the programming track with decoder pro or on the main. I am using an NCE system with a Power Cab on the programming track and an Sb5 and ProCab on the layout.

Marty C

 

Thanks Marty, this is what I was looking for!

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by Marty C on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:44 PM

One other thing I failed to mention. Unlike some of the commenters I have never had a problem programming decoders with keep alives either on the programming track with decoder pro or on the main. I am using an NCE system with a Power Cab on the programming track and an Sb5 and ProCab on the layout.

Marty C

  • Member since
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Posted by Marty C on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:40 PM

I have installed TCS KA1'sand 2's and Tsunami circuit keepers in Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain and Kato engines with Tsunami's, Atlas factory installed decoders and loksound decoders with great results. As mentioned before they are not a cure all for bad track work or really, really dirty track but for balky frogs and switch points they work miracles. Most installations are simple and Marcus Amman is the guru with info on his website. Google keep alive installs and you will get a number of you tube videos and more info than you probably want about the different kinds. I have been putting them in all my engines for awhile and the biggest challenge is finding room in the shell on smaller Geeps.

 

Marty C

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Posted by NP2626 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 4:09 PM

I only run my layout during the winter months, so a good track cleaning in the fall is a must.  I go after it with a bright boy and then run a train that has four track cleaning cars in it for a couple hours.  Sp, my track is pretty clean when I operate.  It is some dead frogs, frogs that should be powered but the contacts on teh relay are bad and pint rails that for whatever reason loose continuity at the pivot rivets.

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:21 PM
I have about seven keep-alive equipped locos (so far).  I have installed TCS and Soundtraxx devices mostly in small brass locos with roughly the same results from both brands.  All locos are Tsunami equipped.  The difference in performance between non-keep alive equipped locos and ones with the devices installed is dramatic.  If you are having problems with stalls or momentary hiccups, these will go away with the keep alive.  Not a magic bullet for horrendously dirty track or locos with poor power pick-up.  These problems won't be fixed by the keep alive.  I think they are good enough that I will be putting them in all of my small brass and other plastic where they will fit. 
One interesting issue comes up with keep alive equipped locos.  I recently ran through a turnout thrown the wrong way and the loco ran through the short and kept rolling on its own power, putting more of the train on the ground.  This was while it was out of contact due to booster shutdown and reset for the short.….IMHO Small price to pay for the improvement in performance.  It is also a bit unnerving to remove a loco from the track and have it be live for up to 20 seconds just sitting on the bench.  Ditto with shutting off layout power, I now wait for about 20 seconds before leaving the layout room to be sure the beasts are asleep.
One other operating quirk I have noticed:  If you drain the capacitor (Dirty track…who me???) it takes around 30 seconds or more to recharge.  So if you hit a patch of super dirty track, it will still make the engine stall when the cap loses its charge and it won't immediately offer extra voltage to the decoder until it recharges.
No doubt in my mind that these devices improve the operating experience for those of us who like to run trains and operate at slow speeds with small equipment.  Try one and see for yourself...I'm guessing you will soon be trying to figure out how to install them in everything.
My two cents,
 
Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by richg1998 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 9:24 AM

I have used the old school method. An electrolytic cap, diode and resistor.

Today the Stay Alive is a series of super caps with resistor and diode. Each DCC decoder company sells them with instructions. Go to the website for each company.

Each has a different name for their stay alive.

Below is a link to a fellow who started using the stay alive a few years ago. He gives a very clear description. A picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/mainnorth/alive.htm

Rich

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

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Posted by NP2626 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 9:22 AM

rrinker

 Do you have sound? Do you have hiccups in the sound going over certain sections of track or turnout frogs? If so, keep-alive may be for you. It absolutely works, though some will say it's a band-aid for poor trackwork.

 The other mag - the free internet one, the editorial in this month's issue actually is on keep-alive vs powering frogs.

 Before I participate in the next club show, I intend to add keep-alive to the locos I run their - our older modules use fitter track pieces between sections so there are always dead spots which menas all trains must have at least 2 diesels just so one always stays powered to get past the dead spots, or a steam loco with all wheel pickup on the engine and tender to it can span the dead spots.

 There are 2 kinds of keep-alive, the simple 2 wire lots of capacitors type, which you almost always have to disconnect to program the loco on a low current program track, and the more sophisticated (and expensive) 3-wire type which allow the decoder to turn off the keep alive when programming - Loksound decoders do this, they can use either a 2 wire or 3 wire keep-alive, with a 3-wire version it cuts power to the capacitors to allow program track readback.

                --Randy

 

My Atlas Custom Line turn out frogs and point rails give me problems and have been that way almost from the beginnings!  So that triggered my interest in these devices.

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 7:27 AM

I was at the Springfield show a couple of years back, and TCS was demonstrating their keep-alive devices.  The guy in the booth had an engine running around a loop.  He picked it up and put it down on the plywood base, and it ran for about 5 seconds without track.  I was impressed.

As much as I try to have perfect trackwork and clean wheels, there are still occasional hiccups that show up with smaller engines.  One of these days, I'm putting a TCS keep-alive decoder in Old Number 6.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by rrinker on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 7:22 AM

 Do you have sound? Do you have hiccups in the sound going over certain sections of track or turnout frogs? If so, keep-alive may be for you. It absolutely works, though some will say it's a band-aid for poor trackwork.

 The other mag - the free internet one, the editorial in this month's issue actually is on keep-alive vs powering frogs.

 Before I participate in the next club show, I intend to add keep-alive to the locos I run their - our older modules use fitter track pieces between sections so there are always dead spots which menas all trains must have at least 2 diesels just so one always stays powered to get past the dead spots, or a steam loco with all wheel pickup on the engine and tender to it can span the dead spots.

 There are 2 kinds of keep-alive, the simple 2 wire lots of capacitors type, which you almost always have to disconnect to program the loco on a low current program track, and the more sophisticated (and expensive) 3-wire type which allow the decoder to turn off the keep alive when programming - Loksound decoders do this, they can use either a 2 wire or 3 wire keep-alive, with a 3-wire version it cuts power to the capacitors to allow program track readback.

                --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
    December 2011
  • From: Northern Minnesota
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Keep Alive Devices.
Posted by NP2626 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 6:29 AM

Although my layout is DCC equipped, I have never paid much attention to the DCC Column in Model Railroader.  Has anyone noted any information contained in this column on Keep Alive Devices for DCC locos?

Does anyone have any experience with these devices and do you have an opinion on their worth?

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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