The advantage of direct radio control is that it can be added as desired. DCC has got us thinking that all our DC locomotives need to be converted to run on the DCC layout. Actually, direct radio locomotives like RailPro have been reported to run well on DCC layouts. With battery power, direct radio will run on any track power or no power on the rails at all.
It would be most cost effective to start with the traditional 2 cab DC system and add a few direct radio battery power locomotive as you go. There is also the Rail-Lynx infra-red system that is less expensive than direct radio and should be able to operate on battery power. Rail-Lynx is a proprietary system that has been around for many years and is still in business.
Inboard battery power is well established among garden railroaders. NCE has a GWire system and CVP has the AirWire 900 system. This is how two major DCC suppliers handle garden railroads... not with heavy DCC decoders but with battery power. MRC has a direct radio feature that is supplied with some Athearn steam locomotives and can be added to the Walthers GP-15. So make that three DCC suppliers that are into direct radio. Anyway, the choice for garden railroading is DC,DCC, or direct radio. We are starting to see this three way choice in HO. And remember... direct radio can be added without changing any wiring.
Dcc to run trains,dc to test engines & ac to power the transformers.
Good thread.
Regarding sound. I agree that too many sound units with the volume "turned up" can be downright annoying. I understand the facet of sound not scaling. However, imho, there are a number of scenarios where sound adds that "special touch" to a layout.
As a teen I often visited SCL's Uceta Yard where there was a locomotive service shop (and polite railfans were welcome). I was always fascinated with seeing and hearing locomotives with their prime movers idling for long stretches of time as they awaited assignments or movement by a hosler. GE's with their "chug" music, 2nd generation EMDs with their turbo-whines. While idling, the sounds of air "pop-offs" occurred sporadically. Whenever units were throttled up, I'd get a tingle up my spine as those sounds bounced off the yard buildings.
Although the bass won't be as deep as the "1:1", I'm happy that these types of scenes can be recreated with the onboard sound available today. Point is that the simpler sounds not often mentioned can be just as enjoyable as listening to a 5 chime Nathan horn or a brass bell.
So for me, sound is something I enjoy and plan on installing in the majority of my units.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Soo Line fan Burlington Northern #24I have very little to none electrical knowledge. which is why I'm not sure if I'll be able to build a DC layout with blocks. When you are ready, post a request for a diagram. I have a couple of good ones to share. Very simple and a good way to develop basic electrical skills
Burlington Northern #24I have very little to none electrical knowledge. which is why I'm not sure if I'll be able to build a DC layout with blocks.
When you are ready, post a request for a diagram. I have a couple of good ones to share. Very simple and a good way to develop basic electrical skills
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell I personally find the sound to be fantastic, that being said, if you have more than one sound engine going at once it kinda wrecks the illusion and having only one engine with sound running while others that are running have no sound is not good either. That is because some things just do not scale. As far as not being able to get what you need, what do you want???? In the last month I have seen most of the bygone systems come up on e-bay, even saw some Zero-one stuff. I just scored a radio control system for a backup for arround $60 out the door. Are these comments directed at or in responser to me? With eight locos going at once, on a multi level layout, sound is just too noisy, on top of the poor sound quality. "As far as not being able to get what you need, what do you want????" What does this mean? I did not say anything about not neing able to get something? Sheldon
rrebell I personally find the sound to be fantastic, that being said, if you have more than one sound engine going at once it kinda wrecks the illusion and having only one engine with sound running while others that are running have no sound is not good either. That is because some things just do not scale. As far as not being able to get what you need, what do you want???? In the last month I have seen most of the bygone systems come up on e-bay, even saw some Zero-one stuff. I just scored a radio control system for a backup for arround $60 out the door.
I personally find the sound to be fantastic, that being said, if you have more than one sound engine going at once it kinda wrecks the illusion and having only one engine with sound running while others that are running have no sound is not good either. That is because some things just do not scale. As far as not being able to get what you need, what do you want???? In the last month I have seen most of the bygone systems come up on e-bay, even saw some Zero-one stuff. I just scored a radio control system for a backup for arround $60 out the door.
Are these comments directed at or in responser to me?
With eight locos going at once, on a multi level layout, sound is just too noisy, on top of the poor sound quality.
"As far as not being able to get what you need, what do you want????"
What does this mean? I did not say anything about not neing able to get something?
Sheldon
This has been by far the most fair and balanced discussion of this topic we have ever had on here.
Earlier I offered a few thoughts on both sides, now I will explain my own personal choice.
I am still DC, but have given DCC very serious consideration several times over the last 8-10 years.
At this point , I do not see DCC in my future, for the following reasons:
I have no interest in onboard sound in HO scale, the sound quality is simply not to my liking and the $50 to $100 cost per loco is just too high for such poor quality. There are additional complex acoustic issues with onboard sound in small scale trains, I have explained my views before, I will not repeat that information here - but onboard sound is not for me.
Signaling and CTC operation of the mainline is a top priority for my modeling. Signaling requires a lot of wiring with DCC or DC, not really much difference. No advantage to having DCC for this feature.
I model the early 1950's, before ditch lights and before universal regulations about daylight headlight use. So controlling lighting is a non issue for me, something I would simply rather not have to do.
Again, as a modeler of the early 50's, and a protolance modeler at that, most all the multiple unit diesels I run are matched sets, that all run fine together on DC, without any speed matching, CV adjustments or other extra work.
And, just as others have done for years, a large percentage of my steam fleet will double head with each other and with the diesels with no problem. again avoiding all the extra work of speed matching and CV adjustments.
The Advanced Cab Control system I use is something I started using back in the 1980's, and I have refined and expanded its features beyond those developed by its original creator. It integrates track power routing, signaling, CTC and turnout control into one system that provides a number of advanced features.
Basically, think of it this way, I built an advanced signal system, and turnout control system, and got an easy to use track power routing system for free in the deal.
Actually my turnout control system, and my signaling and CTC system, would work equally as well with DCC, individually or together.
I have easy to use wireless radio throttles that provide great speed control and low speed operation. None of the user interfaces offered in DCC really impress me, many are down right hard to use.
By not having DCC I do give up a few little things, mainly in the operation of the engine terminal, but out on the mainline, or switching the industrial areas, my layout is designed in such a way that operation is very nearly the same experience for an "engineer" as on a DCC layout.
My layout, still under construction, is large, but not really complex for its size. This is another reason this type of DC system works well for me. There is plenty of room. Industrial areas and yeard are off the mainline and are worked as separate areas. The mainline is long and signal blocks (and control blocks or "track sections" as Paul Mallery and I prefer) are long, to allow for long trains.
DCC would ad considerable expense to this layout, and would add only a few small features, considering my lack of interest in sound. It would also add considerable work in installing and speed matching some 130 decoders.
For most of you DCC is likely a perfect match, but for my modeling goals it would just be more work and a $4000 plus expense for just a few small features.
LAH4,I'll tell you the reason that convinced me to go with DCC over DC: it is an NMRA Standard. Pre-DCC, I was always concerned that in the old analog command control days that if the supplier went out of business, then you were completely sunk. One would be out the cost of everything and one would have to re-install all new receivers for a different system. Bernard Lenz changed all that when he donated his digital system to the NMRA and they made it their Standard. It means that all DCC decoders are compatible at the rail head. I can run Lenz, NCE, Digitrax, Zimo, or any other brand's DCC-equipped locos on any DCC layout no matter who's "brain" is running it.
That's not to say it wouldn't stink if my DCC company went out of business, but all I'd have to do is buy new throttles and a new "brain" (even boosters are cross-compatible). Everthing else would work, including stationary decoders, block detection...even certain kinds of signalling. To me, that made it worth the risk because the NMRA doesn't change it's Standards all that often.
BTW, I would be remiss not to point out that there are also three other options besides straight DC or DCC. There's MTH's DCS system (Digital Command System) which is based on their O-scale technology. Their HO system is not the same as the O-scale one, but being that it's a later technology than DCC (DCC is well over 20 years old, really), it has more advanced features that some may find appealing. There is also Aristo-Craft's radio & battery system. This is interesting, but it suffers from the high cost of the onboard receiver & battery and finding room to mount it. Then there's the latest thing, the impressive Ring Engineering "RailPro" system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk0WLpqwfO0), which is not DCC although it will run on it (or DC, for that matter). It's direct radio control but still powered by the rails. It's kinda pricy per loco, but they all have sound. RailPro is very advanced, using a touch screen throttle and has some very nice features. However, it, as well as the other two, all have the "lone-supplier" problem. If any of these companies go out of business, one's investment goes out the window (for the most part).
Paul A. Cutler III
Jim
Not hard to do, all you need to do is insulate a track and run a DPDT with center off (you could get by without the center off but it makes things run smoother. Run a set of wires to the track and on one side run one power source and on the other another.
DC or DCC, I use DC just because I'm very basic and still pretty new to the hobby. DCC has lots of things that DC doesn't sound, consisting, etc. I'd join in on DCC but I have way too many non DCC ready locos, I have very little to none electrical knowledge. which is why I'm not sure if I'll be able to build a DC layout with blocks.
Why DCC?
Well, here are a few reasons that attracted me:
- Sound! Sound is great ONCE you learn how to set the volumes correctly.
- Control! I am currently building a railtruck similar to a Gallopping Goose from an old kit. First time out with the decoder and it wouldn't move at speed step 1, only made some minor buzzing noises at speed step 2, and then went like a scared rabbit at speed step 3. Applied a little DCC adjustment and WOW! I can actually control it! Nice slow start, nice crawl and nice low speed operation. ( I don't think they ever went very fast).
- Fear! I am a real clutz. I still have trouble telling my right side from my left despite several years (a long time ago) with the Royal Canadian Air Cadets. (I actually made it to Squadron Warrant Officer - fooled them didn't I). For me, figuring out when to flick a toggle switch or two (or four, or seventeen) would be a major challenge. I'd rather risk a cornfield meet with DCC, but then I do tend to hover over the red 'stop' button just in case!
- Modeling fun! Figuring out how to get a sound decoder into some of my older diesel switchers has been a challenge which I have really enjoyed, despite the occasional setback.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrebell My layout can run DCC and while it is still under construction, the slightest amount of dust in the air and an engine will stutter and stop, while a DC engine will just keep going till it gets too bad, radio battery control dosn't care if you paint the track!!!!!!!!
My layout can run DCC and while it is still under construction, the slightest amount of dust in the air and an engine will stutter and stop, while a DC engine will just keep going till it gets too bad, radio battery control dosn't care if you paint the track!!!!!!!!
Good point. That seems like a good reason for battery technology to move forward and take some hold. There are probably others.
Its why forums are a good place to discuss these things.
And the OP started this thread basically asking for information about the popular choices today. I hope he has found some information here worthwhile.
....I've said all I've got to say.........
- Douglas
Regarding DCC:
Imho, for those of us that enjoy sound and lighting effects...DCC provides a prototype style added dimension that has not been mentioned. I've stated this on other threads:
1. The ability to turn locomotive headlights, passenger car, caboose, etc. lights on and off at will. Special effects lighting control, such as Mars, Gyra, and Ditch lights.
2. Freedom to move locomotives anywhere on a layout without restrictions. The fact that collisions are possible forces you to be alert..............just like the prototypes! ( I've mentioned before that on my first DCC demo years ago, I managed to smash a BLI GG1 into an Athearn or Kato SD40-2 on the same track! )
3. Ability to "tune" locomotives to where units from different manufacturers can run well coupled together without playing "tug-of-war" with each other as some do in "DC" mode (like when you run a Kato SD45 coupled with an old run P2K GP7 at low speed)
4. Variable momentum; from zero to "extreme"! I was very impressed with this on the NCE system at the Suncoast Model Railroader's Club. For longer, "heavier" trains, it was enjoyable and challenging selecting the momentum to a higher setting (#8 or #9) then trying to stop the train realistically to the exact spot desired. Had I been a prototype engineer, the division superintendent would have probably climbed into the locomotive and tossed me out the cab!
4. More features on sound equipped units work in DCC mode.
Although I'm not a DCC expert, I understand that in the case of layouts with quite a bit of trackage (even smaller layouts with multi-tracked yards and plenty of sidings) feeder wires are a good idea.
High Greens
lah4 I am sorry if this question causes angst in this group.
I am sorry if this question causes angst in this group.
Hmmmmm,
Alton Junction
Doughless rrebell How true. And now we have direct radio control to battery run in HO coming, will that eventually kill DCC, no but it could put a big dent in it, imagine, no track wiring at all!!!!! That seems to be on the horizon. But really, what would motivate someone who has an established DCC layout from wanting to go through the hassle of tearing out the layout's wiring and scrapping/selling the DCC system and installing batteries in all of their locomotives? The end result would be to have basically what they have now, independent control of trains. And they would still need to press some button during ops to assign the throttle to whichever locomotive, unless I'm missing something. I could see if a person was moving, or building a new layout, or just starting out., they might make the plunge.
rrebell How true. And now we have direct radio control to battery run in HO coming, will that eventually kill DCC, no but it could put a big dent in it, imagine, no track wiring at all!!!!!
How true. And now we have direct radio control to battery run in HO coming, will that eventually kill DCC, no but it could put a big dent in it, imagine, no track wiring at all!!!!!
That seems to be on the horizon.
But really, what would motivate someone who has an established DCC layout from wanting to go through the hassle of tearing out the layout's wiring and scrapping/selling the DCC system and installing batteries in all of their locomotives? The end result would be to have basically what they have now, independent control of trains. And they would still need to press some button during ops to assign the throttle to whichever locomotive, unless I'm missing something.
I could see if a person was moving, or building a new layout, or just starting out., they might make the plunge.
You mean just like "why would someone with a perfectly good fully signaled Advanced Cab Control DC system with wireless radio throttles scrap it for DCC?" They likely would not do that either - but I get told every time it comes up that I should do just that.
As for independent control of trains, I have that. Eight wireless throttles, eight operators, a dispatcher and a yard master, and eight trains all start and stop at different times, go in opposite directions, run at different speeds. And operators know when to stop and start them based on the CTC signals.
The future of direct radio is no different than the future of DCC was 20 years ago. First, a few adventurous types will try it, then product offerings will improve, then it will become a viable choice for new modelers or those starting new layouts.
The biggest advantages to direct radio are no dirty track signal issues, and greatly reduced under layout infrastructure. With batteries, a whole new world of even simpler layout wiring, even with signals, would be on the horizon.
LIONS like encouragement. But then LIONS are never discouraged. LIONS do as they Please, at the moment... I think I'll just take a rest.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BrianinBuffalo Where would a Lion find a camera for his trains? A mighty smart Lion - I must say! - I guess thats why he is King.
Where would a Lion find a camera for his trains? A mighty smart Lion - I must say! - I guess thats why he is King.
B+H Photo. This is the unit that I bought, obviously, I am using it without the waterproof case or any of the other attachments. I use Scotch Tacky Putty to hold it to the front of the subway car. They actually have a smaller one, which is what I wanted, but was out of stock when I was in New York. You would look under 'surveillance cameras'.
ROAR
Well, all the usual comments have been made in favor of DCC, and many of the usual incorrect assumptions made about DC.
So here are a few thoughts - some in favor of DCC, some in favor of DC.
If you like and want onboard sound - go for DCC.
Running more than one train?
Personally, the ONLY way I want to run more than one train without a separate operator for each train is if each train is on a dedicated loop of track - or, if one train is "display" running on a loop, and I am "operating" the other train in a yard or industrial area..
DC can do that just as well with only minimal wiring and simple cab control.
On a small layout DCC wiring is likely simpler - but since the components of DC wiring are inexpensive, DCC will cost more - and will drive up loco costs - maybe only a little - but it will.
Many people are quick to assume others want to do what they are doing - not necessarily so. Others may be very happy only running one train art a time, or not having sound.
Some others like me find features like signaling more necessary than sound.
IF, there is a desire to have more than one operator working separate trains on a small layout - you need DCC. BUT, if you have a big space and maybe want a simple layout concept for longer trains, more scenery, you might be surprised at how effective DC can be.
There are a number of DC control schemes that eliminate or reduce the dreaded "toggle flipping" - again it depends greatly on the goals of the user.
And then there is the idea of not using DCC or track controlled DC, but using some other command control system like Rail Pro - or other direct radio system.
Don't encourage him!
LION uses DC. LION has no use for DCC.
LION runs 8 trains at once, but him has only one head (and one tail) and even with four paws cannot run 9 trains. LION uses 10.5V regulated DC, him build automation right into the railroad tracks. Trains run by themselves, LION operates the Switch Tower with its replica of a GRS model-5 interlocking plant. Trains run on a five minute headway and take 20 minutes to run the 9 mile layout.
Believe me: Scraping the Wall on the Broadway Local is just as boring in 1:87 scale as it is in 1:1 scale. The tower is where the action is. The heck with the trains.
orBBrctww c
Texas Zepher If one has and only will ever have one locomotive moving on the layout at a time, and if there will only and ever be exactly one person operating the layout then DC is probably the way to go. In that situation the only advantage of DCC is all the frilly accessory things like controlling headlamps, beacons, ditchlamps, etc. As soon as one wishes to have two trains moving independently and simultaniously the advantage of command control becomes apparent.
If one has and only will ever have one locomotive moving on the layout at a time, and if there will only and ever be exactly one person operating the layout then DC is probably the way to go. In that situation the only advantage of DCC is all the frilly accessory things like controlling headlamps, beacons, ditchlamps, etc. As soon as one wishes to have two trains moving independently and simultaniously the advantage of command control becomes apparent.
That sums it up pretty well.
A person could just buy DCC right away and could have either operating plan they wanted. They just need to be aware that every locomotive they may want to run has to have a decoder installed.
Personally, I have never wanted to run more than one train. My layout doesn't support it. Its a single track main line and the two runarounds at either end are used during the switching moves. No place for a second train to go while another is moving. That's not a DC or DCC issue, that's a congestion issue.
lah4 I am returning and find that I have many options, not the least of which is DC or DCC. I am looking for reasons to do both. Neither seems superior to the other for small one person layouts.
I am used to DC, as that is what we used in 1968
I've been using command control since 1979. That was back when it was expensive and decoders were the size of Rhode Island. Through the years and considering all the people I've helped with their electrical work and problems on their layouts, I have never doubted for a minute that command control is the way to go. So now that DCC is cheap and decoders tiny I have a hard time recommend anything else. Even the "value" vendors are getting into DCC.
Whether or not there is a great advantage to either depends upon your layout and how you plan to operate it. I can only speak from my experience.....
My layout operates like a big train set that's spread out along 35 feet of a basement wall. DC wireless throttle allows me to walk with the train, and simple on/off toggle switches installed in the feeder wires to the staging spurs and engine service spurs (need feeders there anyway) allow me to park a train or a locomotive while I run the other. I only run one at a time, much like a short line or a branch line of a class 1 railroad would do. I swap out sets of locomotives when I want to change eras or paint schemes and such.
I have a DCC system to allow me to run onboard sound equipped locomotives too. I toggle between the DC and DCC system depending upon which system I want to run. Basically, when I want to here the noises of the locomotive, horns, and bells, I run the DCC locomotive sets.
If I wanted to run more than one locomotive on the same powered track as another, like handing off a train from one locomotive to another, I would go DCC totally (although, like the prototype, I would hand off the same train at the same point on the track, over and over again, so a DC block set up would be easy as pie)
If I were to run two trains at a time, I would have a separate mainline that allowed me to switch a yard or industries while another train circled. A separate DC circuit and throttles, basically like two separate train sets scenicked together, would seem like an easy way to do it.
A larger, club style layout, with multiple trains running at the same time over the same powered mainline would seem to be much more efficient with DCC for MOST people.
The only real disadvantage of DCC, that I am discovering to be more of a hassle than I thought it would be, is the need to have decoders installed in other nonsound locomotives that I want to run in a set with the onboard sound locomotives.
I believe nowdays, the only locomotives that you can buy that will run right out of the box on a DCC layout is one equipped with sound. The price of those is around $200 for most models, excepting Bachmann which eliminates some features that the other brands have.
You can install nonsound decoders into a DC/ DCC ready locomotive yourself, decoders that allow motor and light control only, 4 function or 6 function decoders, for about 20 bucks. But, you may also have to play with the commands that control the motor to ensure that you get the proper slow speed operation, if that is important to you.
My thoughts
Also don't let the decoders scare you.. Most engines now are plug and play or are already DCC'ed (mostly sound engines). After you have installed a couple, it will take longer to get the shell off than to put the decoder in. And thanks the NMRA the CV's- or function codes for the chip- are standardized. So the CV to control speed or light functions should be the same no matter what brand you get.