I am returning to Model Railroading, the Brandy and Benedictine (fondly the Betty and Bob) RR, after many years hiatus. Military, school, too much work and not enough time or space, etc. This is 18060-1900 steam freight, mining, timber, and passenger.
Now that I have the time and inclination, I am returning and find that I have many options, not the least of which is DC or DCC. I am looking for reasons to do both. Neither seems superior to the other for small one person layouts.
I am used to DC, as that is what we used in 1968 when I left for other places and had little time to operate my trains. I look at DCC and see some interesting things, but still do not see advantages or disadvantages. So I am looking for comments on both sides of the discussion.
I am sorry if this question causes angst in this group but would really like to understand better so I can spend my funds wisely.
Thank you in advance for you sage advice.
Hi and a big fat to you!
Now there are two strong staunch stands on electrification of a layout, and never the twian shall meet, except for the ones who have converted to DCC from DC. Each will shouts it's virtues,and condemn the other! The DC supports will say "nuts" to the DCC, adn the DCC people will say "nuts" to the DC people.
I built a 3.5 foot by 5.1 foot HO scale small layout.
I used DC in an N scale mini layout in my teens, so I was familiar with DC too. But I kept reading about this new-fangled thing called "DCC" and decided I liked the idea better! Not having any HO stuff this time around when I got back into the hobby 6 years ago, I started off with some DC locos, but quickly converted to DCC OnBoard Locos.
Here is why:
>I liked the idea of controlling each individual LOCO, NOT the track electricity to move locos. Seems more like real RRs.
>I have 2 interconnected loops with an internal 4 spur yard and an internal 2 spur engine storage/servicing facilty {yes all within a 3.5 foot x 5.1 foot HO scale layout}. With DCC and My Bachmann EZ Command DCC system, I can run 2 locos/trains on each of the loops, AND play with a loco in the yard or servicing facility ALL at the SAME TIME with DCC!!!
>Also. as small as my layout is, I can run those 3 trains with just TWO WIRES connected to the track in just ONE spot! {there are no reversing loops or wyes or anything that would cause shorts to be wired differently}. No need for extra wiring. Now, I did add some feeders to the layout to insure conductivity furthest from the 2 wire connection, but I got away without them for a while.
>DCC wiring is also easier than DC, less complicated Remember I could run my layout with just the 2 wires connected !}.
Here are some helpful things to read about DCC:Tony's Tips | Tony's Train Exchange.
Hope you make up your mind BEFORE spending on new locos!.
{ also any old locos you have CAN be converted if you want to keep them for sentimental reasons}
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
lah4 I am sorry if this question causes angst in this group
I am sorry if this question causes angst in this group
Alton Junction
Good morning and welcome back!!
I was a staunch user of DC for many years. About 3 years ago I began to think about converting to DCC so I investigated various options and went in that direction. I totally removed all the DC wiring saving only certain track feeders, built new control panels and installed a Digitrax system. For me it was a very good decision.
My 'sage' advice would be visit some layouts that use DCC and try it out. Also, your LHS may have something available that you could try. Buy a couple of books - Kalmbach publishes a couple and read about its capabilities. Armed with some info it may be a easier to make a decision.
I will be honest, even the most basic systems aren't cheap and you are also looking at the cost of decoders. But what you get in realism and capabilities are worth the investment.
Finally, you will find there are strong opinions both ways - many of which have been expressed here and that's okay. So take some of the discussion with a grain of salt and do what is going to be best for you.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
DCC is about running your trains and not running your track. I can run two or three trains at the same time and not have to flip toggle switches to do so. Without a doubt, it is far more realistic than DC. My layout is 22 feet by 8 and I run it with a Digitrax Zephyr ($169.00 from Modeltrainstuff) and almost all the decoders I have installed myself, have cost right around $20.00 each.
My layout was set-up for DC block control and run that way for 10 years before I bought my Zephyr system. When I bought it, I simply removed one of my Tech II power packs and installed the Zephyr in it's stead. I did not change my feeder wires to 12 gage wire and I find my system works flawlessly. Later, I also installed a small Digitrax UT-4 double throttle and I can now run three trains at once, if I desired.
I have experience in both DC and DCC and I would not go back to DC as I like what DCC has to offer. I don't own 40-60 locomotives and am not a locomotive collector. I do however have 8 steam locomotives and 9 diesals. All diesals are decoder equipped and most of the steam have also been equipped with decoders. I am considering sound, which will be an added expense.
Certainly, block control is a part of prototype operations and so I understand staying with DC operation, if that is what you like and I think this hobby is about making your own choices! So, in reality, the OP's question shouldn't cause contention; but, we all know that simply will not be the case!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
HI !
Welcome to the Forum and back to the hobby.
I started in HO in 1960, had various layouts, with all of them DC - UNTIL the latest one, started in 2008.
Its 11x15, one operator, two levels, and the result of a lot of planning.
The decision to go to DCC was not easy. I'm not all that electronics minded, but understand electricity and the components of DC operation and wiring fairly well. Soo, I would definitely have a learning curve.
Also, the move to DCC would be expensive, and in fact with decoders and all the goodies, I spent over $2k. While one can get into DCC for a lot less, I wanted to do it "right".
To make a long story short, I bit the bullet and jumped in with both feet. I had my share of newbie problems and questions - but the good folks on this forum bailed me out each and every time. I am extremely happy with the result, and consider it the best change on the RR I've ever made.
That being said, I'm not putting down DC. For folks that are happy with it and/or don't want to get into the DCC pond, that is great. All I really recommend, is that we each ENJOY !!!!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Welcome to the Forum.
i switched from DC to DCC a few months ago and I am very happy I did. Like others said, it's mainly about controlling trains, not electrical blocks. I also like to be able to control headlights as I wish. As I wrote before in this forum, I waited too long to cross the river. Nothing against DC though.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
I have a relatively small one person layout and it is DCC all the way. I've been building model railroads for over 30 years. The difference between DCC and the old way of running trains is remarkable if you are going to do anything more than run trains around in circles.
I have operating on a very large, extremely well done famous model railroad that has been featured in all of the magazines. It duplicates a specific railroad and time. The first time it was DC. It was fun but it wasn't like running a real railroad. The owner gave all of the standard reasons why he was never converting to DCC. You will shortly be hearing the same arguments on this thread. A few years later I returned to operate in his layout and he had converted to DCC. The difference was absolutely remarkable. It now functioned much more like the real thing. The owner admitted that he wished he had converted before.
If you are serious about model railroading and plan on operations and switching then go with DCC from the start. If you are just dabbling and planning on building a small 4x8 to watch trains run then it won't matter.
Here's a handy DCC primer from Tony's Train Exchange:
DCC for Beginners
You can either read it online or download it onto your computer as a .pdf file. It should answer most of your questions...and even some you haven't even thought of yet.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
"The difference between DCC and the old way of running trains is remarkable if you are going to do anything more than run trains around in circles."
There are obviously things a DCC system can do that one can't in DC but to make untrue statements like this is why the battle continues to rage. Does anyone beyond this poster really believe all model railroaders were doing for decades prior to DCC is running trains in circles?
I choose to stay with DC for it's simplicity, economy and because it causes the operator as well as young observers to use their imaginations; something modern technology is robbing from our children. I can still stage trains, perform switching, load and deliver products, operate multiple trains and operate a control panel that is a whole lot more than just "watching trains."
Make your decision on what you like, your budget and who will be watching and operating you layout in addition to you but not on untrue and absolute statements found on this or other forums.
The biggest advantage to DCC is that you can run two or more locomotives on the same track, at the same time, at different speeds, in different directions, without the use of block switches. Because of this they can actually have collisions just as a real train can.
If you decide to use DCC, the system that you pick should be inexpensive but not cheap, and should be expandable. You should also pick one that can be connected to a computer and use the JMRI suite of free programs. Why? If you decide that DCC is not for you, that system will bring a higher resale price because it is more versatile.
Anyone's DCC decoders can be used with anyone's DCC system. So you can use decoders from almost any manufacturer on any DCC system. There are decoder manufacturers out there that only make decoders and not DCC systems. Some of them are better than the decoders the DCC system manufacturers make.
There are many DCC systems available, but the two best ones are from NCE and Digitrax, both have entry level systems, and both are made in the USA.
MRC is a good system for DC but not DCC, so my advice would be to stay away from it.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Like many we were staunch DC users, having invested in DC walk around tech, etc. But went to DCC for a few reasons.
1. Drive the locos, not the track. MUing very easy, not as many blocks, etc.
2. Better performance in slow speed. DC voltage at slow speed is low. With DCC the voltage remains the same. This helps with lighting in cars/locos a lot. I saw my 4-4-0 Bachmann perform a LOT better with DCC TCS chip. However it is true that DCC will not make up for a bad loco, especially one needing mechanical help and not all decoders are equal in performance!
3. Good sound decoder availability came later, but has made the switch fun.
4. Easy wireless with many throttles
5. Computer interface with JMRI, smartphones, etc.
Richard
Thanks to all for the GOOD Advice....
Lot's to learn and relearn.
Lot's to buy.
Sounds like some fun stuff to try.
Lou
Almost all DCC manufacturers have their manuals available on line at their web sites. That may help you. And when (if) you buy a DCC system and get it hooked up and running per the quick start instructions, be sure to go back and thoroughly read the complete manual. Many do not and come here asking questions that are clearly answered by the manual. (My pet peeve.)
Welcome Back
I took a long break too but i went with the DC option i felt that sinking alot of money for my 6 X 10 layout for me was not cost effective. DCC is nice if you can sink that much expense in it. I am running cab control and my wiring took one afternoon to do. anyway its your decision. You get what you feel will suit your RR
I to returned to the hobby from my youth about 5 years ago. i was in the same situation of trying to decide which way to go. I bought a book and quickly became convinced that DCC was the way to go. I am not a electrician and the idea of 2 wires was very appealing to me. I use a Digitrax system and with with the availability of stationary decoders and auto reversing circuits well I decided it was the next best thing!
DCC for me was alot like cycling shorts and cleats for my pedals. Why did I wait so long before I got them?....
Modeling a railroad hypothetically set in time.
Buy engines that are DCC ready and go DC at first. If you you go with the busswire method, most (not all) the wiring is the same. You need to run extra wires for reverse loops and such. I like DC on my very large layout because it is just me. If I get to the point I need DCC, I can change over in one min. ! Also, an extra thought, if you want sound then DCC is a much better choice!
lah4Neither seems superior to the other for small one person layouts.
I don't think there could be a statement more in error than the above. Having built several small, single operator layouts over the years, I have always been amazed at how frustrating operating them with DC has been. The last DC powered layout I built was just large enough for me to actually run two trains at once. However, there was one section of track shared by both major routes that constantly had to be switched back and forth between cabs. Add in the desire to change routes and it seemed all I did was throw toggle switches instead of enjoying the trains.
When I first looked into DCC, many people argued that it was only worthwhile on very large layouts. However, a handful of operators expressed their surprise at how incredibly handy it was on small layouts, eliminating the need to throw toggle switches all the time and simply running your trains where and when you wanted to. I found out that it was mainly the surprised few that really had any first hand experience with DCC while most of the nay-sayers had no real experience with DCC at all!
After a bit more recearch, I installed a DCC system on a small 6' by 6' layout I had suspended from the ceiling of my son's bedroom. Wow! What a difference! DCC delivered on every promise the manufacturers claimed. It is so much more rewarding to drive my trains instead of managing track blocks that I would never even consider returning to DC cab control. DCC also offers so many additional features all accessible from a handheld throttle that DC just pales in comparison.
I went through a similar experience when computer aided drafting software became available for personal computers. The "old guard" acted as though CAD was Voodoo while younger architects and draftsmen eagerly dove into CAD. Today you'd be hard pressed to find an architect that still uses paper and pencil to prepare plans. CAD is soooooo much faster, accurate and organized than hand drawn plans that pencil and paper is just a big waste of time today.
I wouldn't trust some of the old DC power packs I own due to their age anyway. Go DCC and enjoy running your trains!
Hornblower
gandydancer19 The biggest advantage to DCC is that you can run two or more locomotives on the same track, at the same time, at different speeds, in different directions, without the use of block switches.
The biggest advantage to DCC is that you can run two or more locomotives on the same track, at the same time, at different speeds, in different directions, without the use of block switches.
Yep. This is the part of the argument that gets glossed over. This one factor alone is the reason DCC is superior to straight DC. I ran DC block systems for years on other layouts and very sophisticated AC block systems on my layouts. When DCC came out I jumped on it and didn't look back....
If you are returning to the hobby give DCC a try - you just might be impressed
Not looking to argue with DC guys, not telling anyone how to run a railroad, just my opinion
BTW: DCC is great for small layouts as has been pointed out earlier.......
My two cents,
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
One asumes there are blocks or that the layout is large enough to run more than one train at a time.
Also don't let the decoders scare you.. Most engines now are plug and play or are already DCC'ed (mostly sound engines). After you have installed a couple, it will take longer to get the shell off than to put the decoder in. And thanks the NMRA the CV's- or function codes for the chip- are standardized. So the CV to control speed or light functions should be the same no matter what brand you get.
Whether or not there is a great advantage to either depends upon your layout and how you plan to operate it. I can only speak from my experience.....
My layout operates like a big train set that's spread out along 35 feet of a basement wall. DC wireless throttle allows me to walk with the train, and simple on/off toggle switches installed in the feeder wires to the staging spurs and engine service spurs (need feeders there anyway) allow me to park a train or a locomotive while I run the other. I only run one at a time, much like a short line or a branch line of a class 1 railroad would do. I swap out sets of locomotives when I want to change eras or paint schemes and such.
I have a DCC system to allow me to run onboard sound equipped locomotives too. I toggle between the DC and DCC system depending upon which system I want to run. Basically, when I want to here the noises of the locomotive, horns, and bells, I run the DCC locomotive sets.
If I wanted to run more than one locomotive on the same powered track as another, like handing off a train from one locomotive to another, I would go DCC totally (although, like the prototype, I would hand off the same train at the same point on the track, over and over again, so a DC block set up would be easy as pie)
If I were to run two trains at a time, I would have a separate mainline that allowed me to switch a yard or industries while another train circled. A separate DC circuit and throttles, basically like two separate train sets scenicked together, would seem like an easy way to do it.
A larger, club style layout, with multiple trains running at the same time over the same powered mainline would seem to be much more efficient with DCC for MOST people.
The only real disadvantage of DCC, that I am discovering to be more of a hassle than I thought it would be, is the need to have decoders installed in other nonsound locomotives that I want to run in a set with the onboard sound locomotives.
I believe nowdays, the only locomotives that you can buy that will run right out of the box on a DCC layout is one equipped with sound. The price of those is around $200 for most models, excepting Bachmann which eliminates some features that the other brands have.
You can install nonsound decoders into a DC/ DCC ready locomotive yourself, decoders that allow motor and light control only, 4 function or 6 function decoders, for about 20 bucks. But, you may also have to play with the commands that control the motor to ensure that you get the proper slow speed operation, if that is important to you.
My thoughts
- Douglas
lah4 I am returning and find that I have many options, not the least of which is DC or DCC. I am looking for reasons to do both. Neither seems superior to the other for small one person layouts.
I am used to DC, as that is what we used in 1968
I've been using command control since 1979. That was back when it was expensive and decoders were the size of Rhode Island. Through the years and considering all the people I've helped with their electrical work and problems on their layouts, I have never doubted for a minute that command control is the way to go. So now that DCC is cheap and decoders tiny I have a hard time recommend anything else. Even the "value" vendors are getting into DCC.
Texas Zepher If one has and only will ever have one locomotive moving on the layout at a time, and if there will only and ever be exactly one person operating the layout then DC is probably the way to go. In that situation the only advantage of DCC is all the frilly accessory things like controlling headlamps, beacons, ditchlamps, etc. As soon as one wishes to have two trains moving independently and simultaniously the advantage of command control becomes apparent.
If one has and only will ever have one locomotive moving on the layout at a time, and if there will only and ever be exactly one person operating the layout then DC is probably the way to go. In that situation the only advantage of DCC is all the frilly accessory things like controlling headlamps, beacons, ditchlamps, etc. As soon as one wishes to have two trains moving independently and simultaniously the advantage of command control becomes apparent.
That sums it up pretty well.
A person could just buy DCC right away and could have either operating plan they wanted. They just need to be aware that every locomotive they may want to run has to have a decoder installed.
Personally, I have never wanted to run more than one train. My layout doesn't support it. Its a single track main line and the two runarounds at either end are used during the switching moves. No place for a second train to go while another is moving. That's not a DC or DCC issue, that's a congestion issue.
LION uses DC. LION has no use for DCC.
LION runs 8 trains at once, but him has only one head (and one tail) and even with four paws cannot run 9 trains. LION uses 10.5V regulated DC, him build automation right into the railroad tracks. Trains run by themselves, LION operates the Switch Tower with its replica of a GRS model-5 interlocking plant. Trains run on a five minute headway and take 20 minutes to run the 9 mile layout.
Believe me: Scraping the Wall on the Broadway Local is just as boring in 1:87 scale as it is in 1:1 scale. The tower is where the action is. The heck with the trains.
orBBrctww c
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Don't encourage him!
Well, all the usual comments have been made in favor of DCC, and many of the usual incorrect assumptions made about DC.
So here are a few thoughts - some in favor of DCC, some in favor of DC.
If you like and want onboard sound - go for DCC.
Running more than one train?
Personally, the ONLY way I want to run more than one train without a separate operator for each train is if each train is on a dedicated loop of track - or, if one train is "display" running on a loop, and I am "operating" the other train in a yard or industrial area..
DC can do that just as well with only minimal wiring and simple cab control.
On a small layout DCC wiring is likely simpler - but since the components of DC wiring are inexpensive, DCC will cost more - and will drive up loco costs - maybe only a little - but it will.
Many people are quick to assume others want to do what they are doing - not necessarily so. Others may be very happy only running one train art a time, or not having sound.
Some others like me find features like signaling more necessary than sound.
IF, there is a desire to have more than one operator working separate trains on a small layout - you need DCC. BUT, if you have a big space and maybe want a simple layout concept for longer trains, more scenery, you might be surprised at how effective DC can be.
There are a number of DC control schemes that eliminate or reduce the dreaded "toggle flipping" - again it depends greatly on the goals of the user.
And then there is the idea of not using DCC or track controlled DC, but using some other command control system like Rail Pro - or other direct radio system.
Sheldon
How true. And now we have direct radio control to battery run in HO coming, will that eventually kill DCC, no but it could put a big dent in it, imagine, no track wiring at all!!!!!
BrianinBuffalo Where would a Lion find a camera for his trains? A mighty smart Lion - I must say! - I guess thats why he is King.
Where would a Lion find a camera for his trains? A mighty smart Lion - I must say! - I guess thats why he is King.
B+H Photo. This is the unit that I bought, obviously, I am using it without the waterproof case or any of the other attachments. I use Scotch Tacky Putty to hold it to the front of the subway car. They actually have a smaller one, which is what I wanted, but was out of stock when I was in New York. You would look under 'surveillance cameras'.
ROAR
LIONS like encouragement. But then LIONS are never discouraged. LIONS do as they Please, at the moment... I think I'll just take a rest.