First, I would like to thank everyone for their responses to my previous posting entitled "DC or DCC".
Based on all of your thoughts, I have dicided that DCC is the route to go. I am told that this will eliminate about 90% of the wiring snafu's.
Now, here is my new problem. The choices for the seem endless and some what confusing. Digitrax, NEC, MR, EasyDCC and so on. I have visited a few clubs and there are opinions all over the board.
Question: Which DCC product is recommended to begin with that is expandable and allows for teethed or hands free cab controlls?
All of you have previously posed some interest questions and I have found that I did not provide enought info about what i have in mind. So here goes:
1. My current layout was a 4x8 with 2 unconnected ovals and 2 trains. It was simple DC with no trunouts. But it also had a 1967 version Aurora Model Motoreing slot car set going thru it. It was very simple, but that is how my projects always start.
2. I am building this layout in my home and I am a "lone wolf" on this project. I envision the with the family I will utilmately end up with 2 or 3 operators.
3. My layout calls for a U-shaped table that will fill part of the L-shaped dowstairs family room; approximate size or room = 11 ft by 15 ft.. The layout has been designed for an industrial area( Red Wing Mill, ADM Grainery, etc.), trasition into a town setting and moving to a country setting. It is somewhat of a large undertaking and I have aready built most of the benchwork as I have alot of 3/4" plywood and 2x4's laying around the garage.
4. Scale = HO
5. I want sound and lights
6. I am planning to start with 2 trains, but plan on expanding to at least 4 trains.
Sorry, I meant wireless, not hands free controls, it just proves that I am very confused!
NCE might be a good start.
I'm faced with a similar problem.
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/193014.aspx
Jim Murray The San Juan Southern RR
The 'size' if the layout really is not the issue. The number of trains/engines running on the layout is what draws the current and you need to size the system with that in mind.
Both Digitrax and NCE have very good starter systems that can be expanded(more throttles/boosters/wireless/etc). MRC also has a starter system, but the expansion is more limited and comes at a price.
Wireless throttles and the receivers can be added to the above system. Wireless in not cheap, and you will spend as much on the wireless throttles/receives as you have in the system. But they are very nice!
One item that both of the above systems support is the addition of adding a computer interface. You may not think that is too important now, but 6 months from now you will understand how easy programming decoders with you computer can be. Both NCE and Digitrax support JMRI Decoder Pro software(free download). MRC has a proprietary interface and you have to use their own software. Decoder Pro is updated often and has support for the newest decoders. You do not need a powerful PC to run this stuff. I had used a dedicated 600 MHz/Pentium III unit that is a little slow, I bought a 'Walmart Special' computer for under $300 to replace it and that old one is still running down at our club's layout - It just refuses to die.
Myself; I have a Digitrax DCS100 wireless Chief system and a booster - More power than my home layout needs. But there was no NCE Procab, MRC Prodigy Express or Digitrax Zephyr when I bought it. If I had to start over, I would buy a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra - 3.5 amps of power, ability to run 22 trains/engines, and lots of 'big system' features. It includes a built-in throttle and you can add wireless throttles/computer interface/etc.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
HudsonRR6. I am planning to start with 2 trains, but plan on expanding to at least 4 trains.
Well, that pretty much rules out the low-end NCE offering. The "stock" PowerCab only allows for two throttles, and if you add the SB3A booster (another $130 or so), you'll bump that up to four. But if you add their USB adapter, or a mini-panel, well, those take throttle addresses as well.
I'd go with the Zephyr Xtra, which can handle 20 active throttles at once, doesn't count additional devices against that limit, and has a computer interface ability that doesn't have the NCE USB adapter's limitations.
Dear Friends
I can't decide between MTH's DCS system, which is supposed to be mostly compatible with DCC, and a Digitrax DCC system for my future HO layout. My son and I probably will run only up to two trains at a time.
And even with Google I cannot find a list of what DCS offers that DCC doesn't.
Would any of you know what DCS offers that DCC doesn't, or vice versa?
--Jaddie
If you only want to run MTH DCS locomotives then get DCS. If you have the slightest interest in running DCC locos from other manutacturers, or in installing your own decoders, get a DCC system. DCS is not DCC. It is proprietary to MTH and has very limited DCC compatibility. Basically if you want to run DCC with DCS you have to get a DCC system to connect to the DCS so it can pass through the DCC commands. MTH DCS locos will work on DCC. Personally, i can't fathom why anyone in HO would get a DCS command station.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Dear Simon & Friends
MTH claims full DCC compatibility with its Proto-Sound 3 decoders.
Quoted from Version 3 of MTH's 2010 HO catalog:
DCC Features
Proto-Sound 3.0-equipped locomotives can be controlled in command mode with any DCC-compliant command control system. While you won’t have access to all of the incredible features of Proto-Sound 3.0, you will have full DCC command control. This means you can use your existing DCC controller to independently control your other DCC-equipped locomotives in addition to your Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotives on the same track at the same time.
When using a DCC controller, the following Proto- Sound 3.0 steam locomotive features are accessible:
Steam Features*
• Headlight on/off • Bell on/off • Whistle/Horn on/off • Start-up/Shut-down • PFA initiate and
advance • Cab Light on/off • Engine Sounds on/off • Volume low, med,
high, off • Smoke on/off • Forward Signal Sound • Reverse Signal Sound • Coupler Slack Sound • Grade Crossing • One-Shot Doppler
on/off
Diesel Features*
• Headlight • Bell • Whistle/Horn • Start Up/Shut Down • Rear Coupler • Front Coupler • Engine Sounds On/Off • Sound Volume • Ditch Lights Auto/On/
Off • Forward Signal • Reverse Signal • Grade Crossing Signal • Cab Light On/Off • Extended Start Up • Extended Shut Down
• Extended Start Up • Extended Shut Down • Labor Chuff • Drift Chuff • Smoke Volume • Single short whistle toot • Coupler Close • Feature Reset • Idle Sequence 1 • Idle Sequence 2 • Idle Sequence 3 • Idle Sequence 4 • Brakes auto/off • Cab Chatter auto/off • Clickety-Clack auto/off
• Rev Up • Rev Down • Coupler Slack Sound • Coupler Close • One-Shot Doppler • Feature Reset • Idle Sequence 1 • Idle Sequence 2 • Idle Sequence 3 • Ditch Lights Auto/On/
Off • Brakes Auto/Off • Cab Chatter Auto/Off • Clickety-Clack Auto/Off • Coupler Slack Sound
* Check your DCC Controller’s manual to see how many features it can access.
Stevert HudsonRR: 6. I am planning to start with 2 trains, but plan on expanding to at least 4 trains. Well, that pretty much rules out the low-end NCE offering. The "stock" PowerCab only allows for two throttles, and if you add the SB3A booster (another $130 or so), you'll bump that up to four. But if you add their USB adapter, or a mini-panel, well, those take throttle addresses as well. I'd go with the Zephyr Xtra, which can handle 20 active throttles at once, doesn't count additional devices against that limit, and has a computer interface ability that doesn't have the NCE USB adapter's limitations.
HudsonRR: 6. I am planning to start with 2 trains, but plan on expanding to at least 4 trains.
Ouch!
Thanks for bring this up. I hadn't noticed this "cab" limitation yet (And I might not have.) But it certainly could be an issue.
If you take the next step up and get an NCE Power Pro instead of the Power Cab, you can have up to 63 cabs, a 5 Amp system, and you also have a serial computer interface.
cacole If you take the next step up and get an NCE Power Pro instead of the Power Cab, you can have up to 63 cabs, a 5 Amp system, and you also have a serial computer interface.
$400 - $500, depending on whether you go for wireless or not?
Jaddie Dear Friends I can't decide between MTH's DCS system, which is supposed to be mostly compatible with DCC, and a Digitrax DCC system for my future HO layout. My son and I probably will run only up to two trains at a time. And even with Google I cannot find a list of what DCS offers that DCC doesn't. Would any of you know what DCS offers that DCC doesn't, or vice versa? --Jaddie
Unless I am mistaking, it is possible to run a MTH decoder on a DCC system. However a DCS system will only run MTH locos. It is impossible to run your DCC locos on a DCS system.
Jack W.
Thanks for all of your input. While I stll feel like I am swimming in alpha-numeric soup, but the clouds are starting to part. Howerver:
1. On the NCE systems, is 10amps better than 5 amps from the get go if expansion is a possibility?
2. Sounds like there are a number of Digitrax Zypher Extra supports and oppisition in this discussion. However, I have picked up rumors that the origiator of Digitrax was the head of the group that set the DCC conventions and that undue pressure may have been broght on that group to conform to the Digitrax technology, at the expense of other. Is that basis clouding opions? You know old memory die hard.
3. I am learning that it all comes down to support and who will support me when I get into an quagmire. I live in Southeastern Micigan, that being said I am an MSU fan, as long ans the MSU is my alumni, Montana State University. Any suggestions as to which DCC manufacture has the stronger support system in the neck of the woods?
4. I would rater spend the extra $$ up front and get the correct DCC system, instead of throwing more $$ after a bad decision. I have learned by experience that going the cheap route can be very costly in the long run. I will not rush this decision, but will committ wholehartedly once the decision is made. Again, who should I be consultin in the SE Michigan and Norther Ohio region for advice?
I need all the help I can get, because I gave up golf for this new passion. This is like trading one addiction for another! Has any one ever tried to pick out an new set of club at your local Pro shop? It is mind boggeling!
Has any one ever tried to pick out an new set of club at your local Pro shop? It is mind boggeling!
That's why I gave up golf for model railroading.
1) It depends on what you mean by "expansion". If you mean adding more locos to the layout, to the point that 5 amps isn't enough, then yes, 10 amps would be "better". If you mean adding more capability to your DCC system in terms of accessories/functionality, amps don't really matter (except of course in the case of track-powered accessories).
2) Actually, although AJ may have been on the original DCC working group (I don't know if he was or not), it's my understanding that it was actually the Lenz spec that was pretty much adopted as the DCC standard by the NMRA.
3) See what local clubs use, and the local hobby shops stock. If you're looking for local support, that's where you'll find it.
4) See #3.
Many years ago I had a Keller Onboard DCC system. It was good for its day but as children came along the trains had to go.
Recently I purchased a NCE starter set and some Blackstone Loco's. So far the NEC does pretty much what I need for now and can be expanded as needed. It's simple to program (to me) and does the job. There is a support group if you have questions that need answers so I think thats helpful. I'm sure most other systerms have groups too.
Jaddie Dear Simon & Friends MTH claims full DCC compatibility with its Proto-Sound 3 decoders. Quoted from Version 3 of MTH's 2010 HO catalog: Blah Blah Blah --Jaddie
Blah Blah Blah
Jaddie indeed the MTH DCS decoders will run on a DCC system. What I was explaining was that you CAN NOT run DCC decoder equiped locos on the MTH DCS command station. Unless you only want to run MTH locos don't get the MTH DCS command station. By all means run MTH locos with a DCC command station.
Dear Simon & Hal
Thank you very much. I had MTH's handheld set with its track interface unit and accessory interface unit in the budget, but have now replaced those items with the Zephyr. My budget and I thank you.
I have owned an NCE PowerHouse Pro 5 amp system for 8 years, and it has always performed flawlessly, never a problem. Moreover, their customer service is outstanding.
I started with a tethered throttle, then eventually added a second one. Recently, I went wireless by purchasing an NCE RB02 wireless base station and antenna. Customer service is converting each tethered throttle to a wireless throttle for a small fee. Following conversion, the throttles can operated as wireless or as tethered, lots of flexibility.
I strongly recommend the NCE system. It operates flawlessly and can be expanded as your needs grow.
Rich
Alton Junction
HudsonRR Based on all of your thoughts, I have dicided that DCC is the route to go. I am told that this will eliminate about 90% of the wiring snafu's.
Now there is a statement guaranteed to upset the DC proponents out there! But seriously, care and attention needs to be applied to the wiring task for a DCC system as well. The issues are a bit different, in that DC block control needs careful design, but DCC wiring needs to be done in a way to ensure good connection so that the DCC signals can get through. There have been many examples of folks on here that took short cuts with feeders on a DCC system and ended up with poor performance. So please make sure you do a good job with this aspect. It is entirely possible to create wiring snafus with DCC!
Regarding choice of systems, well indeed there are some excellent choices out there. If you lived in Europe the choice would be even greater as there are several brands of DCC there that are not so common here in the US. However, choice is a good thing!!
Starting from the premise that none of them are fundamentally bad, in all likelihood you are going to be happy with whichever you choose just so long as it actually meets your needs.
Based on you current stated needs almost all but the basic Bachmann system will accomodate what you have stated, either in their base state or with added optional items.
NCE PowerCab. Single user out of the box with tethered control. Can not move the tethered control otherwise layout shuts down. Can add a 2nd throttle. With the addition of the Smartbooster, number of throttles goes up as does the power and the ability to move around by unplugging and replugging the tethered throttle. Able to be converted to wireless. With a radio conversion and the addition of a PC interface you could well reach the limits of expansion for this system with regards to the number of users at one time. Also, considering the cost of the expansion options you may be better off looking at the PowerHouse, the next step up. NCE makes great equipment and you will be very happy with it.
Digitrax Zephyr Xtra. Out of the box it is not even a tethered throttle. Very quickly you will want to add a walk around throttle to the system. It can accept far more than you are going to need. Throttles can be tethered, or you can get wireless throttles and panels. My old Z (not Xtra) has an additional 2 wireless throttles (Duplex radio) and a tethered throttle and a PC interface for using Decoder Pro. Layout size is similar to yours. I have some very young kids that come to run trains on occasions and I find the ability to have a basic DC power pack as an additional throttle attached to the Zephyr to be a great and safe way to put train control into a small kids hands. IMO the Zephyr is far and away the most expandable system with regards to an entry level unit. Like NCE, Digitrax make excellent systems and you won't be disappointed.
There are indeed several others out there, MRC, Lenz, Bachmann Dynamis, CVP Easy DCC, all of which warrant consideration for one reason or another. If I were you, start to browse the web sites, narrow down the choices and then see if you can't view systems in action at the hobby shop or friends layout. Enjoy the experience, because you are going to be happy at the end!
Before buying a DCC system, you should at least find somewhere that will let you physically hold the throttles in your hand. The throttle is your interface to the whole system. You should be happy with the feel of the unit. How is the display? Will you be operating in the dark, so you need one that's back-lit or self-illuminating?
I was sold on the Lenz throttle, because I like the big buttons. Others prefer the Digitrax throttles with more buttons, although the buttons themselves are smaller. This is one of those personal-preference things, and nobody can say what's "best" but you.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Jaddie Thank you very much. I had MTH's handheld set with its track interface unit and accessory interface unit in the budget, but have now replaced those items with the Zephyr. My budget and I thank you.
I think that's the right decision. MTH has some good products, but they still haven't come over to full DCC interchangeability with their DCS systems.
MTH also does not sell their decoders separately. So, you can't go out and buy a DC engine and then install a DCS decoder in it. I find this to be a baffling marketing strategy, as users are limited to MTH-produced engines only.
Once again thanks for the input. There was a suggestion that "hands on" experience, prior to purchase is hightly recommended. The feel of the throttle, button size, etc. seems to be a bit personalized. I live in Hudson, Michigan which is a bit off the beaten track and would like to find model railroaders in the area that would be able to provide a "hand on" experience. Also, I have been in touch with the Blissfield Club and they have been very helpful. Any offers?
I would start a new topic asking if anyone lives in your area that you can go and see & talk to them about their DCC system. Not everyone is going to be following this topic.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
HudsonRR Once again thanks for the input. There was a suggestion that "hands on" experience, prior to purchase is hightly recommended. The feel of the throttle, button size, etc. seems to be a bit personalized. I live in Hudson, Michigan which is a bit off the beaten track and would like to find model railroaders in the area that would be able to provide a "hand on" experience. Also, I have been in touch with the Blissfield Club and they have been very helpful. Any offers?
Well, I can't offer an invite, because I'm nowhere near Hudson, but I can provide you with some possible leads.
The NMRA's Nation Convention, the Great Lakes Express 2007, was held in Detroit, well, in 2007. I was going to point you to their Web site for a list of layouts on tour, but it looks like that site doesn't exist any more.
So, here's the next best thing: A link to the WayBack machine's archived copy of that Web site/layout list. It doesn't have contact info per se, but it does have layout owner names and towns listed, along with layout descriptions that often mention the brand of DCC system, if any, that's in use.
That should give you something to start with.
Yes, the basic DCC spec came from Lenz, but it was US based members of the working group that pushed for things like 28 and 128 speed steps (Lenz only did 14) and full utilization of the address space (Lenz only did, and stillonly does, 0-99 even though there were 7 bits to play with - good for 0-127) and the added long address feature.
As for the unexpanded PowerCab - keep in mind that 2 cab limit includes the computer iterface, so the out of the box PowerCab plus the USB interface so you cna use JMRI uses up both cab addresses right there. No other cabs can be connected without adding the SB3A Smart Booster, or goign to a full PowerPro system
No cab addresses to worry about with Digitrax, buy a new cab, plug in, and go. Nothing to set. No reserved addresses for radio, etc.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker As for the unexpanded PowerCab - keep in mind that 2 cab limit includes the computer iterface, so the out of the box PowerCab plus the USB interface so you cna use JMRI uses up both cab addresses right there. No other cabs can be connected without adding the SB3A Smart Booster, or goign to a full PowerPro system
Another reason to go the 5amp NCE Powerpro to start , you will never outgrow it (unless you become a model rr tycoon) it will never let u down, (at least mine hasn't ) great support and back-up ( someone always answers the phone) and has easy to use features.
I just went to DCC after being out of the hobby for almost 20 years. I wanted something reliable and easy to use and understand. I went with the Digitrax Zephr Xtra. It's very easy to hook up and the manual is simple to read. The way my layout is set up I can only at this time run 3 to 4 locos at a time without enlarging and adding more track. Good Luck with whatever you choose.
UPdiesel rrinker: As for the unexpanded PowerCab - keep in mind that 2 cab limit includes the computer iterface, so the out of the box PowerCab plus the USB interface so you cna use JMRI uses up both cab addresses right there. No other cabs can be connected without adding the SB3A Smart Booster, or goign to a full PowerPro system Another reason to go the 5amp NCE Powerpro to start , you will never outgrow it (unless you become a model rr tycoon) it will never let u down, (at least mine hasn't ) great support and back-up ( someone always answers the phone) and has easy to use features.
rrinker: As for the unexpanded PowerCab - keep in mind that 2 cab limit includes the computer iterface, so the out of the box PowerCab plus the USB interface so you cna use JMRI uses up both cab addresses right there. No other cabs can be connected without adding the SB3A Smart Booster, or goign to a full PowerPro system
Or the Zephyr, since it handles 20 throttles out of the box, and does everythign Digitrax's top of the line system does except store routes in the command station and be a fast clock source. Both of which are better handled externally anyway - JMRI can be a fast clock source and is more accurate than the simple processor in the command station anyway.