Hey guys i just purchased the psx-ar picked it up from my local hobby shop and took it home. I have a reverse loop on both ends of my layout one up and one down. I installed the psx-ar just like it showed on the manual. For the time being i just want to use it as a autoreversing unit. I put a train on the tracks ran it through the loops both ways and it seemed to work fabulous. Then a little later ran it through and it started shorting out my track until both loco wheels fully entered the loop or exited whch ever. the bottom of my layout i have a buss line but no feeders yet would that effect the psx ar or what could be the problem i just cant figure out this reverse stuff. im all in dcc zepher 2.5amp system. the top loop is the whole upper layer with feeders about every 10-15 feet. what do i need to do to get this working properly? Do i need some other unit with it or more power. The most locos i have had on it when i was testing it was 4 or 5 one being with sound.help help help???/? Thanks
Yes, it could be caused by the lack of feeders. Have you done the quarter test at all points on your layout?
An auto-reverser works sorta like the overload protection in a booster, except that when it senses a short it reverses the output polarity instead of shutting it off.
So the same way that the track resistance will prevent a booster from shutting down in the case of a short, it can also prevent the auto-reverser from properly flipping the polarity.
But all that said, I seem to recall hearing about the PSX-AR having a problem with lower-power boosters such as the Zephyr and the PowerCab. I believe there's a certain setting that needs to be used. After you do the quarter test and remedy any feeder issues, you may want to check into that as well.
I would start by simplifying the test. Get all the locos off the layout, and use a screwdriver to short just one rail going into the loop. That's all it should take. Obviously only one end of the loop will be out of phase.
There are trip current settings that can be adjusted, but I expect it is ok out of the box. Mine throws with the original Prodigy, which is as low current as it gets.
Lack of feeders could be the problem.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Reading into your post, it seems that you have one PSX-AR but two loops. Are you using the same reverser for both loops?
This should work, but with one important restriction. You can only cross one insulated joint at a time. If you've got a train entering or leaving both loops simultaneously, the PSX-AR can't resolve the issue and will short out.
These units support several amps, and should have plenty of power for 4-5 engines.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Greetings,
It would be greatly helpful if you could post a picture/drawing of your reverse loop. If there are two reverse loops then post a picture of both loops with the track in between.
You also need to set the Autoreverser to a 2.5 amp limit. The better way to do this would be through setting CV49 = 2 on the PSX-AR. But if you can't or don't want to do this, you can apply jumpers across J6 pins 1 & 2 for a 1.27 amp setting.
-D
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I installed all the feeders on the bottom part of the layout and did the quarter test it came out perfect. Then i did the quarter test on the upper level which is the whole loop and the zepher would show a short but not continue flashing the numbers like it did on the bottom. Does this mean i need more feeders or have dirty track or what? I can run an engine around the loop pretty flawless but it does seem to have a little hesitation here and there. Also the psx-ar is shorting everytime a wheel of an engine or car passes the insulated gap. any more thoughts?
My thoughts are still to simplify, get rid of the locomotives, and test the operation of the reverser.
Hesitation could well be to lack of feeders, which will also effect the operation of the reverser.
As I said before
Please supply drawing of your track layout. If you don't know how to do this, ask, and we can show you how.
Sorry to report the way you have it stated really does NOT help in explaining your wiring. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
what is the best way to post a picture of my layout on this forum? I appreciate the help
bnsf0823 what is the best way to post a picture of my layout on this forum? I appreciate the help
bnsf0823,
You need to create a graphic file of your layout drawing (e.g., a JPG or a GIF file) and then upload it to a third party server like Photobucket. Once uploaded, you need to provide a link to that uploaded file in a post on this forum. When you post the link to the graphic file uploaded on Photobucket, the other members of the forum will be able to see your drawing.
If that sounds too complicated, email the graphic file of the drawing of your layout and we will post it for you.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich: I am going to ask for your help one more time. Could you take the time to explain how to actually create a JPG or GIF file from a program like 3rdPlanIt. I am a computer dinosaur (as I suspect are many others). Basic step by step instructions written with the assumption that we haven't got a clue about what we are doing would help very much.
Thanks AGAIN!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
If you have 3rd PlanIt, maximize your screen and zoom so that you can see the entire layout. Of if it's a really large layout, you can make two pictures, one of each half. Under the File menu there is Export, under there is View to a File. This will allow you to save whatever appears in the drawing windows to a JPG file. That's all there is to it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Rich explained it pretty well. I'll elaborate a bit more.
To post pictures:
1. Go to www.photobucket.com and create an account.
2. Upload a photo by clicking the button top center that says "upload" I circled it in green for you in the picture in the next post.
3. On the next screen select the picture file you created. Hit "Save an continue to album" when it's done uploading. (It will tell you when it's done)
4. This will take you back to your main screen. Rest your mouse over the image you are interested in. A box should show up with some options/text inside it. Click inside the "img code" It will look something like," [img|s42.photobucket.com/albums/g20/my_account/myimage.jpg|/img]"(I circled it in red for you) Type Ctrl+a then Ctrl+c. This will copy the text inside the box for you.
5. Inside your post, type Ctrl + V (this is Paste) The text should show up in your post edit box. When you hit [OK] to your post it will show up in the thread.
I know it sounds complex, but after you do it the first time it's simple. The upshot is a lot of online forums use the same [img] code. So once you know how to do it here, you can do it on a lot of forums.
There are several ways to create a graphic show your track layout.
1. Just take a pencil and draw it inside mspaint (the paint program built into windows.) Save it to your desktop. Use one color for track and another for your wiring to the track.
OR
2. Draw it on paper. Take a digital camera and photograph your drawing and transfer it to your computer
3. Use a track planning software like Atlas RTS (Free) or 3rd Planit. This is a lil more complex, but we can walk you through the steps if you want to learn. :-) We are here to help.
This is my layout in a nut shell. Like i said the psx ar is not working right on the top loop. Everything on the bottom seems to be working great even the ar 1 on the bottom reverse loop. Please look this over and see if there is anything i need to change add or do to get this working correctly. if it is cv 49 please explain how to change this to make it work. Thank you very much for all your help. The bottom of the layout shorts out real good with the quarter test. but the top not so well it wil short out for a couple moments and then stop. ??????
While that SHOULD work - assuming EVERY feeder on the upper level past that turnout where the gaps are is powered fromt he PSX-AR - it might be easier if the track from the turnout where the insulated joiner is to the feeder on the bottom (right side if the picture was right-side up) - the one where the feeder X is right by the edge where the legend is - is logner than your longest train. You could put a gap there, just to the right of the feeder, plus the gap at the turnout, just for that track, and feed just the one section witht he PSX-AR. The rest would get fed fromt he main bus. Ony if taht section of track is longer than the longest train.
Next step, I see you have a Zephyr system - the PSX-AR needs to be configured for a lower trip current to work right with the Zephyr. There is a jumper for that, and I think also a CV you can program instead. It's the "low power booster" option in the documentation. Unlike the AR-1, the PSX-AR does not have a simple potentiometer adjustment to make it easy to tweak, you have to mess with jumpers and/or CVs.
I don't understand what you want me to do it sounds like you want me to isolate the psx ar from the rest of the whole upper loop, but then won't that cause shorts when i have other trains on the upper layout running or even just sitting. Im confused about how the power runs through the tracks and the buss lines. Does anyone live around lincoln nebraska that can help? me cause im very confused right now. Would dirty track make a difference? or the loop size be to big. do i just program cv49 through ops mode then change it to d1 or d2? and do you mean jumper by attaching a wire between the to ports on psx ar with a wire or what?
hey Guy;hang in there .Im followig this quite close cause your plan and hardware are very similar to mine except I havent got to the psx- ar units yet ,but in near future.Now I dont know any thing here BUT and that could be a big but ,looking at your plan thers a lot of feeders on the problem leval(cause its more than twice the track) makes me wonder if there isnt a chance of a stray feeder or even a joint or 1/2 pair thats not on the wrong buss ?? may be some thing intermitant ?like I said I am taking shots in the dark ....another idea that I would concider is to change the possitions or the psx- ar units ( or take the one thats working fine and put it where the problem unit is and vis versa ? I dont know how dificult that mite be but thease are a couple things to do till you get a good peace of info. but my guess is a stray feeder mabe a turn out or siding ...Please update us even when you find the problem so others may benifit from your findings(like me)..Jerry
bnsf0823 I don't understand what you want me to do it sounds like you want me to isolate the psx ar from the rest of the whole upper loop, but then won't that cause shorts when i have other trains on the upper layout running or even just sitting. Im confused about how the power runs through the tracks and the buss lines. Does anyone live around lincoln nebraska that can help? me cause im very confused right now. Would dirty track make a difference? or the loop size be to big. do i just program cv49 through ops mode then change it to d1 or d2? and do you mean jumper by attaching a wire between the to ports on psx ar with a wire or what?
Either way. Programming CV49 in Ops Mode is probably easier than soldering a wire in there. I wish they weren't so cheap and woudl include the jumper pins - a strip of a couple dozen pins is only a buck, enough to do a bunch of boards - and that's at the price you and I can buy them when buying just one pack of such pins. It would add pennies at most to the cost of the device to include the jumpers instead of leaving it up you to try and solder to the board. I guess they figure it's not needed since you cna program CVs and do the same thing. But CVs can get reset or wiped out, a physcal jumper will always be set.
The problem with dropping the trip current is the way you have things iwred, your entire top level is running through the PSX-AR. That's why I asked about that one lower track - if it's longer than your longest train, make that the reverse section, everythign else on the upper level would be powered by the main bus, same as all the track on the lower level that does not go through the AR-1.
This is what I am suggesting - make the red line the reversing section, power the remainign feeders all from where the power comes in to the PSX-AR.
I see what randy is saying and it makes since. ( Im not the op here though) BUT Randy would the psx- ar still fire the turn out moter since only half the turn out is the reverse section?, ld assume it wouldnt be a problem but had to ask.Jerry
What do you mean by stray feeder? Like a feeder thats not attached to the buss line just hanging there. Cause i do have a couple of feeder wires that are hooked to the buss but not the track but i didn't think that would be a problem.
my question is do i don't understand what the instructions on the psx ar are telling me about programming do i connect wires directly to the pins on the psx ar or can i just go ops cv49 d2 and change it through the tracks. Also if you could send me a simple picture of what you want me to isolate that would be much easier for me. Thank you for hanging in there with me i really want to solve this issue so i can play trains. Once i get past the wiring of this it's all down hill for me but this is the most difficult part of the hobby for me. thanks again.
It's OR like I said, you cna solder a jumper OR set CV49.
I don;t know how to make my picture any clearer - I marked the isolated section in red and use the same convention you did with double perpendicular lines to indicate the gaps in both rails. The key is, will your longest train fit in that space? If not, we need a different plan.
And Jerry - it doesn't matter, there is no 'rule' that says bot sides of a turnotu have to be included in a reverse loop. The key is matching the phase (polarity) of the rails at the point where the train is crossing the gaps. That's why (partly) the isolated section has to be at least as long as your longest train (unless you never run lighted cars or cabooses, and don't have any metal wheels on cars). The phase change with DCC happens under the moving train, exactly the opposite way a DC reverse loop works - because the phase has no bearing on the direction the loco will move. They key is that the phase of the rail on either side of the gap has to be the same - this is what an autoreverser does, it detects the short that occurs when it's not, and flips the phase of the reversing section. Now the phase matches. If you put a voltmeter across the gap - one probe on one side of the insulated joiner and one probe on the other, there would be no voltage if the phase is matched, or full track voltage if it's not. With a reverse loop arrangement, because the track turns back on itself, if the power is in phase at one end of the isolated section, it will by neccessity be out of phase at the opposite end - this is why the isolated section has to be as long as the longest train, the phase can't change at both ends at the same time. To see how this works, draw it out with both rails shown, not a simplified single line for the track drawing. Color one rail red, and the other rail blue. Trace over the rail exactly - no cheating. You will see that in a reverse loop situation the red runs into the blue - a short. Thus insulated joiners to make a gap, and an autoreverser to flip the phase as the train crosses them.
bnsf0823 What do you mean by stray feeder? Like a feeder thats not attached to the buss line just hanging there. Cause i do have a couple of feeder wires that are hooked to the buss but not the track but i didn't think that would be a problem.
BNSF,
Your picture helped out a lot. Thanks.
Now let me see if I can help you out with the other suggestions....
1) Make sure BOTH tracks at BOTH ends is gapped for the reversing section. (4 gaps total) If you don't have any breaks in your rail on the outside rail then that could wrap back around to the turnout causing a short.
2) Randy came up with a good place for the reversing section. Another alternative would be top center as you come out of the tunnel and circle over the river.
3) To set the 1.27 amp auto switch breaker limit, you can short the first two pins of jumper 6 together. It will say J6 on the board itself and I believe it is on the lower right as a series of 4 pins if you hold the board horizontally.
We'll figure it out! Hang in there.
If you want to try your hand at programming the auto reverser, let me know and I'll give you step by step directions like for photobucket.
well since we have all this help here I went ahead and ordered my psxar's, so I can use all this info while its fresh in my head and maybe understand it better having it here on my desk
I think im starting to understand this. The red will be my reversing section even though it is not a true reverse loop. The psx-ar would attach to the feeders in that red section or to the rest of the buss on the upper level? If we go this method does this mean i have to always run my trains in one direction because what if i have one train heading on the "red line" then another train heading through that first turnout on the top level would that cause a problem? Yes that section in red would be longer than my longest train. i understand your concept of shortinng the reverse loop i just im unsure what power to hook to what? I hope i don't have you beating your head on anything im learning and really appreciate you helping.
I moved the psx ar to the bottom loop to see if it would work down there and it did the same thing. I think i might have a problem with the unit. The ar1 worked down there just fine.