Lee, I have theoretical question for you, which you don't have to answer until you rewire the 2-6-6-2 - What would you rather have? A $256 loco that you have to ajust/rework a little or a $500 loco that is perfect?
This is actually a trick question since the $500 ones are often not perfect either.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL yankee flyerI totally agree, the slop is mostly in the gear tower. and can't be readily fixed.in other words a bad design. Based on how mine run, I'm not sure I could/would call it a bad design. From what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem. If I was using DCC, I would hard wire all decoders based on my experiance with electronics. Sheldon
yankee flyerI totally agree, the slop is mostly in the gear tower. and can't be readily fixed.in other words a bad design.
Based on how mine run, I'm not sure I could/would call it a bad design.
From what I'm reading, it seems like I might be right about the Bachmann lighting board being the problem.
If I was using DCC, I would hard wire all decoders based on my experiance with electronics.
Is it any wonder this is what I do? Plus the fact that a plain-wire decoder can be had for as little as $12 while specific board replacement types tend to be at least twice that. I don't have any Bachmann steam locos but I do have one of the newer 44-tonners and that board is coming out for sure. I've also seem some real doozies in P2K locos (usually the older ones) - one which had 2 large resistors to drop the light bulb voltage, and various traces on the circuit board you were supposed to cut when installing a decoder (it did have an 8 pin plug - fail to cut the traces though and it fried decoders instantly). I drew out the schematic and it appeared once you cut allt he required traces, only 1 resistor was being used. Fine I suppose unless you turn off the directional lighting in the decoder and try to turn both lights on at the same time. If I connect the wires myself then I know what goes where and that there's nothign in between that could affect operation. Well worth the effort. Since I generally use decoders with JST plugs, it's a simple matter to make the loco into a pure DC model afterwards, as well.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
To be honest I would rather have a $256 loco that runs correctly. My other Bachmann steam were all plug and play. Now I'm embarrassed to ask, were do I get a schematic for this loco? I traced out the wires and everything makes sense except I don't have the blue, gray and white for lights coming out of the engine. I hope the standard decoder schematic works for the Bachmann decoder.
Lee
All the wires coming fromt he engine are probably black so they hid between the engine and tender.. If you can see any of the traces on the circuit board you cna probably cross reference a wire coming from the loco with the NMRA 8 pin socket specification to see just what goes where. Critical not to mix up are the track pickups and the motor leads - although if you get the motor leads backwards, no harm, the loco will just move the wrong way. If the headlight is an LED - same thing, reversing the connection to the blue and white wires on the decoder will just mean it won't light up. A critical point for that is where the dropping reistor is - probably on the circuit board you are about to remove, so a resistor must be added in one of the headlight wires (doesn't matter which one). Pickups from the tender should be easy to trace.
If you unplug the decoder it should be easy to test a few things with a meter, Sitting on a piece of track you should get continuity between the right raila nd some wires, that would be the right rail power source and goes to the red wire on the decoder - there should be 2, one from the tender and one from the loco. Ditto for the left rail, those wires would connect to black on the decoder. Not sure how hard it is to access the motor terminals, but again you can just trace continuity to the tender plug and see which two wires connect to the motor. Thse go to orange and grey on the decoder - if the loco runs backwards you can fix it with CV29 or just flip the wires around. That should cover 4 of the wires coming from the engine - the reamining should be the headlight.
Lee, the colors will be different, but its easy to figure out. Look at the Bachmann lighing board - the motor wires to the loco are marked M+ and M- on the circuit board. That's your motor leads.
Follow the wires from the tender trucks to to the circuit board, you will see they connect to the board the same place as two of the wires to the loco - they are the track pickups - right and left.
The remaning two wires that go to the loco are the headlight LED - there is nothing between the lighting board and the LED, so if the decoder output is 12 volts you will need a resistor there.
If your loco has a backup light, it will go directly to the lighting board - just disconnect it and provide a resistor just like the headlight.
Blue, gray and white - that is forward headlight, common and rear headlight I assume (I don't know this DCC color code stuff) - the decoder documentation should explain how to connect the LED's to that.
AND, I'm sure Randy will read this soon and fill in what I'm not fully up on about the decoder.
Keep in mind - the six wires from the loco plugs are - motor (plus/minus), pickups (right/left), headlight (plus/minus) - there are NO other electrical components in the loco itself and those six wires are all discrete to their item.
Sheldon--
Obviously, I'm not Lee, and certainly my tastes and opinions won't match others, as we have already established.
However, given the choice between a $256 loco that may have some issues and that $500 loco that might actually be had for $330 new, but factory refurbished (i.e. thoroughly gone over by the importer to remove any issues), I will take the $330 choice every single time--partly because it's still a $500 loco for cheap (or significantly less)--and though other models get dumped at big discounts, the top-flight models don't usually go for those big discounts, but instead a lesser price break. BLI never dumped the UP brass-hybrid 2-10-2's; even the refurbished ones have only a very modest discount.
When I have disassembled some articulateds in the past, I certainly have run into issues. They were a Precision Scale Western Pacific Challenger and Overland Models UP 2-8-8-0's. There were issues with those particular engines that I did not have the parts and/or expertise to fix: a key part was totally missing from a PSC 4-6-6-4, and the OMI 2-8-8-0's had major electrical issues--could be anything from hidden bad wheel insulation to much more serious problems that just were beyond my expertise. However, because I bought them right, I was able to get out of some of those engines for what I had in them. In my 20's then, I did also receive a $20,000 valuable education in what brass models not to buy.
Some folks really enjoy the hobby aspect of taking a model that may have a few issues, or that might be available cheap, and fixing it up to their satisfaction--great for them! In my case, I have disassembled plenty of limited edition models in the past, and learned that although I can design things that don't move (roads and railroads) very well on paper or in cadd, I'm not a great mechanic on those things that do move. Some enjoy complete disassembly of steam engines--in my case it stresses me out. Building Intermountain freight car kits stresses me out, and the end result looks much inferior in my eyes to what the Chinese are able to accomplish.
So for me, it is much better to pay a little bit more for relatively "bullet-proof" or "idiot-proof" quality, give them exemplary maintenance (I at least can lube and clean), and leave them alone, unmodified, unfooled around with. I love the P2K sintered bronze graphite impregnated bearings that will never need additional lubrication! That's the way to build a model--so it doesn't need to be taken apart. Some other manufacturer's instructions that come with those higher-end models do now specifically say that under "normal running circumstances" (ie not on a store layout running 10 hours per day) they are well lubed at the factory and should never require additional lubrication (this is always excepting the valve gear, which will need some lubrication). That's what I'm willing to pay more for. I don't have a big roster like some people do, but instead I go for the higher end equipment and just have less of it.
Basic NMRA decoder colors are red and black for the track pickups, red for right rail typically. Orange and Grey go to the motor, orange to the side of the motor that was connected to the right rail, typically. Blue is common for all functions (positive - decoder functions are open-collector current sinks so it's perfectly OK to connect more than one function lead to the same light bulb or whatever). White is the function lead for the front light, yellow is for the rear light. Grren would be the next function, and then Violet or Brown (most I've seen use Violet). That's as many wires as can fit in the 9 pin JST plug, so must decoders that have more functions have solder pads for the attachment of additional wires.
Some locos make it easy and even when they don't have decoders use the NMRA DCC wire colors so it's easy to remove whatever DC dummy plug might be present and simply connect like colored wire to like and it will be fine. Others just use black wires for eveything so you need to poke a little and see where each one goes.
Good morning
I have the NMRA color codes and charts. It's easy to pick out the motor and pickup wires but after that I have blue gray and white coming out of the decoder and I am left with brown and red coming from the engine. How do you reconcile that? Red and black pick ups from the engine are on a separate plug.I was a tech. on some very large Radar in the service but we had schematics for everything, with input and output values at every connector.Oh yes, I remember this is a learning experience.
Lee, the two left over are the headlight - Bachmann does not follow the NMRA color code - in fact, their color codes vary from production run to production run and loco type to loco type.
I designed and built controls for process machinery in manufacturing for decades, I drew the schematics, but we never color coded anything, we used wire numbers. Red was our favorite color or wire.
Sounds like you are doing fine, you simply need a resistor in that line to the headlight. If i get time this afternoon, I can look in a similar tender and see if I tell which is the positive to the LED. But as long as you have the resistor in the circuit, if you hook it up wrong, it simply won't light.
Remember what I said before, all the wiring in the loco is discrete, two wires to the motor, two wires to the pickups, two wires to the head light - common wires, no other components.
ATLANTIC CENTRALRemember what I said before, all the wiring in the loco is discrete, two wires to the motor, two wires to the pickups, two wires to the head light - common wires, no other components.
Are we sure this light is an LED, if so a 1 1/2 V battery should tell me which head light wire from the engine is + or -. That leaves me with an extra wire out of the decoder, blue gray or white. Blue is common to the head lights and there is no back up light?? Hmmm I shall mull this over.Edit: Yes I looked at the light with a magnifier and the head light appears to be LED.
Blue from the decoder is + for the light, white is the - for the front light. Grey on the decoder is one of the motor leads - unless there are 2 grey wires?
yankee flyer ATLANTIC CENTRALRemember what I said before, all the wiring in the loco is discrete, two wires to the motor, two wires to the pickups, two wires to the head light - common wires, no other components. Are we sure this light is an LED, if so a 1 1/2 V battery should tell me which head light wire from the engine is + or -. That leaves me with an extra wire out of the decoder, blue gray or white. Blue is common to the head lights and there is no back up light?? Hmmm I shall mull this over.Edit: Yes I looked at the light with a magnifier and the head light appears to be LED. Lee
Yes, we are sure it is an LED - I have had two of these apart, and, all DCC and DCC/sound Bachmann locos have LED lighting - nothing in th spectrum line has had a 12 volt bulb since the pre DCC 2-8-0's.
John,
I have no problem with your modeling, collecting, or whatever you choose to call it - obviously your model train interests are more RTR, mine less so.
None of my BLI stuff was bought at retail, most at nearly 50% off, some even less thanks to their bad marketing polices. I would never pay their retail prices. I still don't have much of it, as explained, most of it was no better than Bachmann at meeting my standards - in several cases much worse. And now none of it is stock, as it came, out of the box.
UP 4-12-2However, because I bought them right, I was able to get out of some of those engines for what I had in them. In my 20's then, I did also receive a $20,000 valuable education in what brass models not to buy.
Wow, you have got me beat, I own about 120 locomotives, and have never engaged in buying/selling, so I still have 95% of what I have ever bought - I suspect I only have about $10,000 tied up in locomotives over my whole 40 years in the hobby. Obviously I don't buy brass, not much anyway. I have one and one half - and they now have plastic tenders. Never had much interest in them - too expensive for what you get in most cases. But maybe that's my problem, I buy model trains to have fun with, not as investments, I prefer real estate for that.
Intermountain kits are fun and easy - but then again that's what I do, build things.
Actually I design and build things for a living - houses mostly, but I've built cars, process machinery, sky scrapers, shopping centers, bridges, etc. (or at least some critical part of all of these).
My point is this, you continue to "sell" BLI and MTH to everyone - as long as you do, and as long as it contains attacks on Bachmann or other brands deemed "lesser" in your view, I will continue to share my view - about how happy I am with my 30 Spectrum locos, how good they run, how well they their offerings fit my modeling goals, how affordable they are and how easily they are improved.
Lee, Randy, myself and others have been trying to solve this problem Lee was having for some time - seems we have, and it seems that Bachmann has solved the problem on the new H4 version as it is getting good reviews even on this forum as I type this.
BLI has vertually no prototypes at the present I am interested in, I won't speak for Lee, but we were discussing his loco and his problem. You are surely welcome to give your opinion, and I am surely wlecome to give this response.
The solution to Lee's problem is not to buy something, anything, made by BLI or MTH, he obviously wanted a 2-6-6-2, we are trying to make that work out, and it seems we have. BLI nor MTH have a solution to his problem, they don't make a 2-6-6-2. Bachmann may not have had a solution either, but his fellow modelers do.
So with just some small effort on his part, and without disassembling the loco itself (everything he needs to do in the tender, two screws, six wires reconnected), he will have what he wants - a $256 2-6-6-2 with DCC and sound that runs correctly.
Well there is no turning back now. Everything is cut out, pickup wires are rewired. I have the motor leads isolated. The only thing is I feel I should be able to light the LED with a 1 1/2 volt battery as a double check. No luck.The Bmans' light board output has two wires marked M+ an M- so those wires going to the engine should be for the motor. The other two marked + an - should be the wires going to the LED. Surely the light board was made to put out the 11/2 volts for the LED and the engine should not have a resister inside it. I would be more comfortable if I could get It to light.Measure twice cut once! As my Grandpappy use to say.
Lee, many white or yellow LED's require more like 2-3 volts to light, a battery just might not be enough.
Try two batteries, even hooked up in reverse that should not exceed the reverse rating of the LED.
Lee, I tested the lighting output of a spare 2-6-6-2 tender and the output T the LED was 2 volts.
Put a resistor in but don't solder it, test - if the light works, solder it up and you're done. Better safe than sorry, unlessit's REALLY easy to get at the headlight and repalce it. Too much resistence just means it won't light, you can't possibly damage an LED with too much resistence. On the other hand, if you leave it out and it DOES need one... poof. You night also want to check the output of the blue and white wires on the decoder, some of the full-blown Tsunamis have resistors already in place. Who knows with the Bachmann version. Assuming full 12V output from the decoder and no resistor up in the boiler shell, a 1K resistor will work fine.
Thanks guys
I'm going slow on this because I really don't want to smoke the decoder. I'll try to get it done later today If I do complete the job I let everyone know.
Test results!
Everything seems to be working properly. Light works, speed is good, when I get time I do a thorough check. This decoder light output is Blue positive and negative white. I thought blue was common and therefore negative for LEDs.
Thanks to all that coached me through this.
yankee flyer Test results! Everything seems to be working properly. Light works, speed is good, when I get time I do a thorough check. This decoder light output is Blue positive and negative white. I thought blue was common and therefore negative for LEDs. Thanks to all that coached me through this. Lee
Another happy customer!
When in doubt, remove the factory junk! Keep out unecessary interference.This may not cause any problem with your basic Tech II or Tech III power pack, but with DCC and better quality DC systems that use simialr PWM - it wreaks havoc.
Blue on the decoder IS common - it's a positive common. Each decoder function lead is a current sink to ground - technical name, an open collector circuit but what it means to the non-EE is that the function is basically a switch to ground. What this means is you can connect more than one function lead to the same bulb or LED with no harm - say you want the headlight on in forward AND reverse but don't feel like programmign the decoder for this - just connect the white AND yellow leads to the same side of the LED, and blue to the other. If you visualize the circuit as a power source eonnceted to a light bulb connected to two toggle switches in parallel, you cna see how this will work - if either or both switches are closed, the bulb lights. And there is clearly no interaction between the two switches - it's like having two pieces of wire in parallel. The other reason they do this is because a transistor acting as a switch in this manner dissipates very little of the current flowing through it - meaning it doesn't get very warm. Critical on a decoder to use small transistors to conserve space yet provide sufficient current handling capacity.
More than you probably wanted to know