Randy & Mr. B
Thanks for the tips on testing and ballasting. It all makes sense.
The tiring part of this installation was the time and effort looking for a problem under the layout that didn't exist when it was actually on top.
Happy Railroading
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Ah, ballasting. I install the machines on the Peco turnouts, mounted directly to the underside. This leaves a large, unsightly gap beneath the turnout. Using a tip I first read here, and then in MR, I put a piece of thin cardboard between the machine and the turnout when I assemble them. I pre-cut the cardboard with slots to accomodate the mounting tabs and throw rod, and paint the surface gray to roughly match my ballast. Then, I can lightly ballast right above the machine or leave the space unballasted (safer, but it doesn't look as good) without being able to see through to the floor.
Randy's suggestion that you bench-test your turnouts is a good one. I do that with all my switch machines. So far, no bad ones.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Randy,
Looking ahead future installations should go much smoother. After all if hadn't been for the poor installation of the accessory switch there was no problem and we wouldn't be talking about this.
Before laying track I learned on the forum to remove ties from track connecting to turnouts so the rail joiners could be slid back enabling the turnout to be removed. The turnouts have not been ballasted but I did weather the rail of one and had to use Cody G's suggestion for loosening paint bottle caps,with water to loosen the joiners.
I look forward to the next installation with confidence but the LEDs on the control panel come next.
Thanks for your help.
Not sure if you are pulling up existing track to install the motors, or installing the motors on the turnout and then installing the whole thing as a unit, but if the latter, hook up an extra toggle at the bench with a couple of clip leads, plus a clip lead from the common, and test throw each one before you put it on the layout. That's not as much help if you already have the track fastened in place and are going back to install the motors since it's more likely that binding will occur AFTER you attach the motor to the turnout, but it might save you some extra crawling.
I usually make mistakes like this once, maybe twice before I realize there has to be an easier way and take a moment to figure out what I can do to make life more comfortable. I'll still contemplating my servo installs, although the brackets I have come with double-sided tape which should hold everything in place while I check the movement and then install screws for a more permanent attachment.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerSo, did you test out that second one again to see where the problem is?
As per Mr B's suggestion I checked out the toggels and they were OK. After I switched the power leads the motor worked fine turning in one direction but took several attempts going the other way moving a little bit at first and then snapping into position.
I hadn't planned on mentioning this but since you asked what I found wrong I'll tell.
I could blame it on Peco but the truth is that I didn't secure the accessory switch properly to the motor and it moved ever so slightly after the turnout was back in position causing it to bind just enough to cause trouble. When I reinstalled the switch on the track bed it moved freely.but something happened after that.
I've paid one heck of a price for this mistake. I can't count the number of times I crawed under the layout as well as the time spent. If I could have gotten comfortable under there I believe I would have taken a nap at times.
Next comes the LED hook ups
Once again, thanks everyone
So, did you test out that second one again to see where the problem is? Try the same toggle with a different switch motor, and try a different toggle witht he same switch motor. One way or the other it should work, pointing to either a bad toggle or bad switch motor.
Mr B after trying your last suggestion without any luck l decided to bite the bullet and install another complete assembly of a turnout, switch motor and accessory switch.
It's working like a charm
If at first you don't succeed try try again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and "Don't Ever Give Up".
Thanks to everyone who posted. You all helped in one way or the other.
Happy Railroading !!!!!
superbe Throwing the turnout in one direction every thing works as it should but throwing it back even with a long pause it moves a little on the first push of the toggle and then snaps properly in place on the second or third try without pausing. Pausing at this point doesn' seem to matter.
Throwing the turnout in one direction every thing works as it should but throwing it back even with a long pause it moves a little on the first push of the toggle and then snaps properly in place on the second or third try without pausing. Pausing at this point doesn' seem to matter.
This sounds like you might have a problem with the toggle itself. Try just touching a wire to the center post and one of the outer posts of the toggle instead of using the toggle throw. Even better, disconnect the center post and touch that wire to the outer posts, thus taking the toggle out of the circuit.
Partial success but no hurrahs.
The + wire from the CDU was originally wired to the toggle and the --- wire to the common feed on the switch motor. This works on motor #1.
Reversing them on #2 and sending the + wired to the motor and the ---- wire to the toggel made a difference but not completely.
Should I consider this satisfactory and permenantly install the turnout?
I haven't wired the LED yet and that will be only way I will know the turnout has activated properly.
Comments more than welcome.
Hello Mr B
I'm using barrier stip jumpers so that isn't an issue, also I've paused between throwing the switches.
The oddity is that the first motor works perfectly and still does with the addition of the second but the second one doesn't. Both work when bypassing the CDU. This would make you think the CDU is the problem but if so then why does it work with the first motor? On the other hand if it is the wiring then why would they both work witout the CDU. Likewise the turnouts and toggels must be OK. I put the second one on top of the layout to make sure the accessory switch wasn't binding in the "excavation"
I'm going to reckeck the wiring connections and then reverse the wiring to the motors to see if that will make #2 work and # 1 not. If I keep moving things around I might just fix it without knowing what i did. This wouldn't be the first time that has happened.
With both working without the CDU says that everthing else is OK but then why would the CDU work with one and not the other.
Being a loner and with momentary toggels makes testing the circuits very very difficult.
Thanks for your reply.
Happy Railroading (?)
If you're using barrier strips, make sure you've got a jumper from one set of screws to the next where you're using the strip to distribute power from the CDU out to the two separate units.
A CDU takes some time to recharge after activation. This might be as long as several seconds. So, if you throw the first turnout and then the second in quick succession, the CDU might not have recharged enough.
Diagram looks correct. Double check to make sure it really is wired the way you drew it. Check the toggles, it could be that #2 isn't a momentary one, or it's stuck. I believe the peco motors have two connections for the common feed, one for each coil - are they both wired on both machines? Not sure what else could be wrong, each individual switch motor shoudl be wired like the first one and you should be able to connect any number of those assemblies in parallel with each other to service every turnout on your layout.
This is why I described this as a mystery....
The toggels are momentary.
With the CDU bypassed both motors work but hum as expected.
Reattached CDU and only the first motor worked with no hum
Disconnected #1 motor and #2 flipped back and forth once and that was all.
The only change I made was bypassing the CDU . The wiring has remained constant.
Here is the wiring diagram
Recheck the wiring. If one works with the CDU, then there's no reason why a second switch motor, wired identically to the first, should not also work.
Are your toggles momentary? It sounds like they are not - you need to use momentary toggles to operate solenoid switch motors. If the humming constant? If so, this is exactly the problem - and you are going to quickly burn up the switch motors. This is why it doesn't work witht he CDU. The first one flips, then the CDU limits the power output, so no humming - but the CDU also cannot recharge so trying to operate the second turnout means it's trying to run with the very limited current the CDU allows through, and it's not enough to operate the motor.
rrinkerThe humming should go away once you hook the CD unit back up
You were right the humming did go away but now there is another mystery.
Using terminal trips I wired a second switchmotor. The first one still worked but not the second one.
After checking the wiring and the connections I bypassed the CDU as you suggested previously and both motors work but with the humming. I can live with the noise but why wont' the second one work with the CDU??
Your thoughts appreciated.
The humming should go away once you hook the CD unit back up. That will give one quick jolt to move the points and then limit the current in case the toggle sticks so the motor won't burn out.
rrinker(not enough hands)
Hi Randy and Bob,
After reading your suggestions sveral times I decided to try Randy's. At first the big problem seemed to be doing this with out any help, but the light bulb in my brain finally lit up and I easily moved the toggle to the other side of the bench work. Using an alligator clip to hold a probe from the multimeter I had two free hands
In addition to the switch motor I also was attaching an auxilliay switch for an LED on the facia to be hooked up later. It is said that confession is good for the soul so here goes. When checking the wire connections I found I had power going to the auxilliary switch and not the switch motor. With 6 wire leads and only 3 wire colors I had accidentally gotten the leads mixed up.
Needless to say the switch motor is working wll although there is a humming noise when activated
The picture below shows the proper grouping before replacing the turnout.
The execution itself was simple but all did not go smoothly. I had to remind myself several times that I DO like model railroading.
Thanks Randy and to everyone.
[
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
Well, this might be a little tough (not enough hands) but you could try disconnecting the wires at the switch motor and putting a meter on them, and hold the toggle in one direction or the other and see if you have any voltage (keep the CDU bypassed for this test). If you have power at the wires right at the switch motor, then that validates the rest of your wiring and the problem must lie in the switch motor. If there's no power there, work back and check at your terminal strips. Pretty much standard troubleshooting - don't overcomplicate things. If you have power at the source but not at the destination, just move along step by step and check. The problem has to be between the spot you last had pwoer and where it is missing. Electricity is really a simple thing - it needs a complete loop path to work. A break at any point stops things from working.
Or if you have a 16 volt or so light bulb handy - you could connect that instead of the switch motor, the light should be on as long as you hold the switch in the correct position. Again with the CDU bypassed - the burst of power from the CDU would burn out the bulb like a flashbulb. But if you don't have a meter - see if there is a Hrabor Freight ner you, they have them for $2.99. Even if you don't understand half the functions on it, the volts and continuity tests alone are worthwhile for model railroading.
Hi Randy,
The terminal strips are the ones with the raised dividers. I have the "fork" type connectors to yoke the terminals togther as needed but for now I'm only hooking up one switch motor.
I bypassed the CDU with power going directly to the terminal strips. Still no luck.
There is power circuit to ( - ) to the switch machine and + to the toggle and the wire with the crimped spade connectore checked out ok. The toggle is generic.
Do you have any other suggestions, and could it be the motor itself?
The diagram looks correct. Do you have the transformer connected to the input of the CDU (it should have instructions that say which terminals are for the transformer and which go to the toggle switches). And what sort of terminal strips did you use? If they are the kind with pairs of screws with a raised strip between each pair, only the screws across from one another (the short dimension) are connected, the ones next to each other (along the long dimention) are not, unless you jumper the screws on the other side, either with wire or a "bus bar" that they make for the purpose. If you used the type with just a single row of screws, or a row of solder terminals, those are usually already connected so you cna connect the input to one terminal and run multiple outputs off the other terminals.
If everything is wired right, you can check for the CDU being bad by bypassing it, just hook the wires fromt he CDU output to the transformer INSTEAD OF (not at the same time) the CDU. There should be enough power to make the motors snap back and forth, the CDU just gives it more of a positive action plus protects the motor from burnout should the toggle switch stick. Oh yeah, what sort of SPDT momentary toggles are they? Generic ones with a center off, or ones made for the turnouts? Not sure about Peco but many of the ones made by the turnout manufacturers need an extra push to actually make the momentary contact - you flip the lever in the direction you want and then it pushes against the spring-loaded contacts to actually make contact.
superbe Thank you all and I’ll be back in touch with the results, one way or the other.
Greetings,
Well it's been six weeks and I was sure I'd be posting a success story tonight but it was not to be. I've been doing this that and the other all the while working some and thinking about the switch machine.
Today I fired it up and it didn't even groan or quiver when I worked the toggle. I couldn't believe it.
I've gone over the wiring and can't find anything wrong. The following crude drawing shows how I wired it. I did use a couple of crimped connectors but I've never had any trouble using them before.
Your comments will be greatly appreciated
Hi All,
OK, it looks like you all have given me the information I need. Now it comes down to implementing it.
I also have to prepare a facia board for the toggles as well as attach another PL-10. I usually work on several different projects at the same time so it may be a while before I get the turnouts turning.
Thank you all and I’ll be back in touch with the results, one way or the other.
What Svein said in his last post, Bob. Definitely AC, definitely momentary contact switch at the panel.
I only have (1) Peco, so I didn't have to gang them through terminal strips. I used terminal strips, however; just not for that purpose. Here's a shot of the black and red feeders coming in from the left to the 2-position terminal strip.
The black feeder feeds the black common you see going up to the Peco. The red feeder goes to the 3-position terminal strip. The yellow and green feeders come down from the Peco and connect to that 3-position strip as well.
For the Peco to operate, it must receive power from the black common and either the yellow or green feeder. So at this point you have the makings of a complete circuit (black plus yellow or green), but the Peco won't operate because those wires are all isolated within the terminal strip. They need to be connected--the black and yellow for the points to be thrown one way; the black and green for the points to be thrown the opposite way. The black's taken care of; power's gone directly to the Peco via the black from the CDU through the terminal strip. We now have to power the yellow and green.
They are powered through the toggle. That's why you see the red, green, and yellow wires leaving the terminal strip and going to the toggle off camera. The red powers the toggle. Throwing the toggle routes power from the red to, say, the green back to the Peco, where it "meets" power from the black common to complete the circuit and throw the points. Throw the toggle the other way, the yellow does the work and the points move in the opposite direction.
I don't know much about electricity, but I believe the above is correct. If I've erred, anyone please feel free to correct me.
Rick Krall
superbeSvein, Your post answered some questions but raised others. I had planned on using the DC side of the transformer and I see that is wrong, it should be AC. Does that mean the momentary contact switch is incorrect also? I seemed to remember reading somewhere that if you used a CUD momentary toggle switches aren’t necessaty. Do you have any ideas about that Now this is where I get lost. Where do I put the terminal strip(s) and how are they wired for more than one motor?
Hi Bob,
I don't know if the Peco turnout motors work with DC, maybe they will, but Peco recommends 16V AC. I'm also using Peco (Electrofrog) turnouts and PL-10W motors on my layout in progress, and plan on using an old Märklin transformer for turnouts and accessories.
The momentary contact switch is a must for Peco motors, this type of motors requires only a short boost of power otherwise they'll burn out in a very short time (unlike motors like the Tortoise, which use constant power to press the point rails against the stock rails).
The CDU have nothing to do with the type of switches you choose to use (IIRC), they are supposed to provide that extra "oomph" to overcome the tension of the turnout spring. The PL-10W motors I use are more efficient than the regular PL-10, and doesn't require a CDU.
Regarding terminal strips: When you look at the diagram in my previous post, you see that one side of the motor has one common connection, while the other side has two separate connections that are connected to the momentary switch. The common side can be connected to a terminal strip for all your motors, so long as the other side are connected to the momentary switches (one switch for each turnout you want to control separately).
Svein
I have found that instead of soldering the wires to the Peco switch machine, I solder Atlas rail joiners to the ends of the hookup wire. The Atlas railjoiners slip right on to the switch machine terminals with a tight fit enableing easy removal in case the switch machine has to be replaced
Hi Svien and Rick,
Svein,
Your post answered some questions but raised others.
I had planned on using the DC side of the transformer and I see that is wrong, it should be AC. Does that mean the momentary contact switch is incorrect also? I seemed to remember reading somewhere that if you used a CUD momentary toggle switches aren’t necessaty. Do you have any ideas about that
Now this is where I get lost. Where do I put the terminal strip(s) and how are they wired for more than one motor?
I am using insulfrogs.
Rick,
I’m still studying the wiring. Your pictures really help.
As for the positioning of the switch motor I don’t have that to worry about since I’m using Peco motors which attach directly to the turnout. The info will certainly be useful if I use any other below the layout top switch machine such as the Tortoise. I do have one on hand.
I’ll try some googeling also and I’d appreciate any further thoughts you might have after reading this post.
Thanks to you both. It may not sound like it but I am learning.
Bob,
This may be overkill but hopefully will help. I found installation to require more precision than I anticipated and had to re-install my Peco to eliminate binding. I detailed the installation procedure that worked for me per below. I soldered the spade lugs that will connect to the terminal strip, but you don't have to.
My subroadbed is 50" above the floor at this point, so I found access to the motor underneath for the install challenging at best. Replacing Peco's screws with Phillips and getting a long-shank #1 Phillips screwdriver was critical to my sanity, as was using an assistant to flip the points to make sure there's absolutely, positively no binding.
1. Prepare (2) 3-layer pieces of .015 x .250 styrene strip, (1) positioned outside each point rail. This holds the points in dead center.2. Drop a length of 3/64 brass rod, prepared with a 90-degree bend at one end, through the hole in the turnout’s throw bar. This indicates dead center when working underneath.3. Cut shirt cardboard to fit the bottom of the turnout motor & punch a hole dead center for the actuator rod. This will center the rod and provide a place to start with the centered turnout points. Remove this template once the machine is initially positioned, as the actuator rod needs to move freely when checking for binding (see below).4. I then marked the centerline of the throw rod by extending a line from each end with pencil to the edge of the subroadbed, “wrapping it around” the thickness of the plywood, and connecting the points underneath. The line should bisect the actuator hole. Alternatively, one can drill a 1/16 hole through the subroadbed at each end of the centered throw rod and connect the points underneath. (Can also drop thin wire through these holes and connect those underneath).5. Next, strip 1” of 22 AWG wire to solder to the Green and Yellow positions on the right side of the motor and the bridged black positions on the left side, per the motor’s instructions, inserting it front-to-back. 10 mm exposed on front assures an effective wrap and bond. Crimp & solder spade lugs to the other ends, crimping each lug at a right angle to the seam & inserting just enough insulation to assure a firm fit. Position the lug vertically and solder the wire inside the crimped connector. The insulation will stop the solder from running out. Position the lug so the crimping tube will fit over the edge of the terminal-strip.6. Hand-fit the motor, orienting it per the guideline and centered actuator pin. Remove the bottom template centering the pin. Have an assistant flip the points and position the motor to assure there’s no binding. Support it lightly so it can “float’ to a natural orientation, then support it firmly to assure the points move freely and fully. This step is critical. Remember, the motor doesn’t put pressure on the points like a Tortoise; it simply has to move briefly to throw the points. Even a slight misalignment will cause the actuator rod to bind in the throwbar hole and prevent the points from moving properly. Make sure there’s no binding.7. Have the assistant help steady the motor while you use a pin vice to pre-drill one of the (3) mounting holes. Use a replacement, phillips-headed fixing screw and long shank screwdriver to install that screw, making sure the motor didn’t move. Repeat the process with the remaining (2) screws. Have your assistant move the points regularly throughout installation and note that the points don’t bind and mate smoothly to the stock rails.8. Fire it up and hopefully conclude.
I did a quick Google search for "wiring peco points motors" and got plenty of hits--you should find something to help you with the wiring in there. In the meantime, I photographed my installation that included a Circuitron CDU. I connected the CDU per the illustration in the Peco turnout motor package:
Good luck!
Here's the wiring diagram on the instruction sheet that comes with the PL-10W motor:
Please keep in mind that this diagram shows the wiring to the motor only, if you have Electrofrog turnouts you need a PL-13 switch (or similar) to control the polarity of the frog.