Going all the way back to the original question, analog DC will be phased out when it is no longer possible to obtain filament (or equivalent) transformers, discrete resistors, bridge rectifiers and rotary switches. Those are the ingredients I used to build a dedicated power supply to move trains in a hidden staging complex. The filament transformer steps house power down to 12.6 VAC, the bridge rectifier converts that to DC and the resistors and rotary switch combine to form a 120 ohm potentiometer. The whole is mounted inside a freezer container my wife exiled from her kitchen.
Unlike DCC base stations, which require sophisticated electronic parts not available at your local (or web) supplier, a DC power supply can be assembled from parts available at your local Shack. It may not be pretty, and it doesn't have coasting or a separate brake - but it can, and does, control everything from modern can motors to two elderly open-frame motors in parallel.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
blownout cylinderI just picked up a re-release in vinyl of Hawkwind's Space Ritual album
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
simon1966 blownout cylinderI just picked up a re-release in vinyl of Hawkwind's Space Ritual album Now there is a blast from the past, I have not listened to that in decades. Time to go rooting around and find my copy of Captain Lockheed and the Star fighters!
Now there is a blast from the past, I have not listened to that in decades. Time to go rooting around and find my copy of Captain Lockheed and the Star fighters!
Yep. Their back catalogue is being all remastered and is being released on vinyl and CD......Got the Right Stuff there
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I currently run DC but I am planning on upgrading to DCC in the near future. If DC fades away it will be years down the road. My thinking behind this is DC is a lot cheaper in a train set. How many train sets are given to 8-10 yr olds at Christmas. I know I would balk at giving a 200 dollar engine to my kid. DCC equipment will have to get a lot cheaper to solve that scenario. Bachmann is making a good effort but its not there yet. For every "serious modeler" out there, I would like to know how many kids have a simple oval in their bedrooms with one engine. If this hobby has a future, it has to be affordable to kids (and their Dads).
I made the leap to DCC and will never look back one of the best things I ever did model railroading wise. That being said I recall talk a few years back of how eventually code 100 track would be phased out for a number of speculative reasons. Well we all see how that went. I don't ever see DC being completely phased out in to obscurity only to live on on Sheldon's layout but you "may" see some sort of reduction in production and or loss of popularity as DCC is getting to be more affordable and will continue to do so in the future to some extent. They are never going to give the stuff away but for better or worse you can buy a DCC locomotive for under $50. Same price you would pay for a DC model.Same thing sort of happened with flying models. sure R/C is the dominant choice by far but your still able to fine line fliers in a hobby shop. Might have a few inches of dust on them but their still around.
While you may not be able to get all the parts for a DCC command station at Radio Shack (and frankly I'd be surprised that you could get all the parts for a DC controller at one on any given day - luckily there is usually another RS just a few miles away so if one has the switch but no transformer...), you CAN easily get them from any of the major online electronics suppliers (and the same parts for the DC supply are cheaper there as well). There are many web sites which show you how to build such a thing - while it's more complex than a transfomer and bridge rectifier, it's not nearly as complex as it's made out to be. Look inside a commercial product - there really aren't all that many components.
Heck there's even DIY articles on building decoders. Including ones as small as anything commercially available, provided you have good eyesight and a strong magnifier. With good quality decoders under $12 it's hard to justify building your own other than for the satisfaction of doing it yourself.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I test new engines with dc,but use dcc.The answer to your question no.
AndrewRR Im planning a new layout. All my locos are DC. Wondering if I should go to DCC or not. Do you think DC will be eventually phased out and hard to find? I only plan on running two locos simultaneously.
Im planning a new layout. All my locos are DC. Wondering if I should go to DCC or not. Do you think DC will be eventually phased out and hard to find? I only plan on running two locos simultaneously.
BTW, anyone suprised that Sheldon has 7 posts in less than 6 hours on this thread?
Doughless,I used to be anti-DCC back in the 1990's at my club. My No. 1 reason was that DCC was sure to go belly up someday, leaving us with a dinosaur legacy system that would be impossible to get parts for. Meanwhile, DPDT toggles and transformers will always be available. What changed my mind entirely was the fact that DCC is an NMRA Standard, not just in the hands of one manufacturer. If worst came to worst and Digitrax disappeared tomorrow, our club would have to buy new throttles and a new command station from one of the several other DCC manufacturers, but everything else would remain (even the boosters). Sure, it wouldn't be cheap but it wouldn't bankrupt us, and labor would be minimal. Better yet, we wouldn't have to swap a single decoder.
So am I worried about future software changes to DCC becoming incompatible with older versions? Nope. For example, Our club has had the exact same command station since 1999. It has not been upgraded at all. Back in 1999, I was using Windows98 on a Pentium 233Mhz (shudder). That's a long time ago in software terms. Meanwhile, every Digitrax item ever made will work with our command station (except for the original CT4 throttle...and I think there was a conversion kit for that).
jamnest,I agree. Decoder cost is usually the most expensive for most of us, since we all seem to collect engines like they are going out of style. This makes DCC prohibitively expensive for a lot of us. There are ways around this, as you mentioned. Still, the point can be made that DCC can be less expensive than a roughly equal DC system even with decoders included. It would be a minimal DCC system vs. a tricked out DC system, but it's possible.
Sheldon,Of course I bring up the issues of clubs. I've been a member of one for over 15 years. It's no different than you bringing up your own layout (which you do quite often).
I think you are wrong about there being no further conversions to DCC from established layout owners. Sure, those that aren't moving or rebuilding their layouts probably won't change anytime soon, but each time a new HO or N-scale layout is built, that owner has a choice to make: DC or DCC. That goes for the greenest newbie to the most grizzled veteran model railroader. Look at all the "name" model railroaders that are starting new layouts in the past 10 years. These are new converts to DCC that would probably have never changed if not for a new layout.
FWIW, if you have two locos that run fine together on DC and put identical DCC decoders in them, they won't need to be speed matched 99.99% of the time. OTOH, if you have two locos that won't run well together with DC, they can be made to run well together with DCC.
In regards to "thorns in butt"... I find it interesting that you enjoy difficult wiring puzzle solving for the challenge of it, but you don't give equal credit to the idea that other people might like the challenges of DCC as well. In many of our discussions in the past, you have talked about the difficulties of DCC (programming, etc.). Has it occured to you that some of us may feel about programming like you feel about wiring up circuits?
I know there's a lot of people that love vinyl, but I have to tell you I can't tell the difference between that and digital. And judging by the vast numbers of digital sound being sold vs. analog, most other people can't, either.
tomikawaTT,You don't even have to get that complicated for DC. I know someone who uses a car battery and a trickle charger for power, then uses a big ol' rheostat and a DPDT toggle for speed and direction. All of this he salvaged, so it cost him nothing. Forget Radio Shack, a DC analog system can be assembled from the city dump!
Allegheny2-6-6-6,Code 100 will fade out once people stop buying it. It's like brass track. Not too many people are buying that these days. Not to say that people won't use it if they have it or rip it from their layouts. But if the manufacturers stop making it, then eventually it will fade away.
Paul A, Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs.
I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs.
Lou
JavelinaATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs. And I'll bet you're listening to them on a wicked hi power tube amp (that you probably built yourself). My old vinyl is in mediocre shape, having survived many trips across the country and several cats, but every click and pop brings back the memories of good times. Lou
Anyone heard of BlueRay? It WILL phase out both LP´s and CD´s. The dynamic range is greater than the old recordings can achieve.
And to the DC Vs. DCC? I think some will always run DC but the Mfg´s won´t sell DC in the future, only DCC equipped. It´s the same all over. Some people like to do it old school and the majority keeps up with the progress.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Paul3 I know there's a lot of people that love vinyl, but I have to tell you I can't tell the difference between that and digital. And judging by the vast numbers of digital sound being sold vs. analog, most other people can't, either.
I've embarrassed myself by positing to a discussion about the specifics of electronics, when I choose to know didly about them, so I am at a disadvantage when I try to contribute to the discussion. But, the above comment gets to the heart of the matter for me.
Why did the industry move to digital from vinyl if there was no significant difference in the final product, sound quality? Was it really driven by demand for higher quality sound, or something else? A huge capital investment in new technology but maybe only incremental progress in the advantages of the final product. Doesn't make sense that there was demand for it, unless the consumer was convinced there was a real difference in sound quality.
The price of consumer gadgets decline over time, if the technology doesn't change. When the market is saturated and the price is too low for the industry to be comfortable, new technology is introduced to whet the appetite of the consumer. Some define this as progress.
My 15 year old 32" analog TV still works just fine. My 35mm camera actually flips the shutter exactly when I press the button, instead of waiting a split second or two like the 3 digital cameras I've bought (which stinks when the little ones are opening christmas presents). And at the heart of any model locomotive beats a DC compatible motor.
Yes, manufacturers will phase out straight DC products, just like will 35mm film, and square (instead of rectangle) shaped TV screens. (all because of consumer demand, right?).
But an ominous sign for DCC is that the price is beginning to come down to a point to where it is reasonable, which spells death for any electronic gadget. So I actually think it will be a race to see what will be phased out first, the basic DC compatible motor or DCC control sytems.
- Douglas
GraffenJavelinaATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs. And I'll bet you're listening to them on a wicked hi power tube amp (that you probably built yourself). My old vinyl is in mediocre shape, having survived many trips across the country and several cats, but every click and pop brings back the memories of good times. Lou Anyone heard of BlueRay? It WILL phase out both LP´s and CD´s. The dynamic range is greater than the old recordings can achieve.And to the DC Vs. DCC? I think some will always run DC but the Mfg´s won´t sell DC in the future, only DCC equipped. It´s the same all over. Some people like to do it old school and the majority keeps up with the progress.
I have a feeling that Blueray will have a pretty short life. Solid state thumb drives are quickly getting smaller and cheaper. Hard drives are now offered in solid state with no moving parts. I think that once SSD devices get just a little cheaper you'll see some sort of replacement for the DVD/Blueray that doesn't have any moving parts. You'll just plug your movie in like a USB thumb drive or similar.
Springfield PA
DCC will die before DC, the batteries are coming to HO but it will be at least 5 years but it will happen. Just look up atomic batteries (I am not joking and they are in use now, just expensive). Or to bring up other science they now make a black box about 8"x8" that used natural gas and can power a house, scale it down!
rrebellDCC will die before DC, the batteries are coming to HO
Why would that kill DCC? The decoder equipped loco, running on a battery power pack would simply accept DCC commands via some other transmission medium, radio for example. The basic DCC command structure would likely continue with the introduction of battery/radio control.
simon1966 rrebellDCC will die before DC, the batteries are coming to HO Why would that kill DCC? The decoder equipped loco, running on a battery power pack would simply accept DCC commands via some other transmission medium, radio for example. The basic DCC command structure would likely continue with the introduction of battery/radio control.
Actually, DCC will likely not survive conversion to battery power. DCC is a unique command control system in that the command signal is actually part of the track power. All other command control systems that I know of overlaid a command signal on top of the track power or send the command signal separately via radio. The other command control schemes are much more efficient, cheaper, and easier to implement if battery power is already being provided on board. The Aristo on-board throttles and similar schemes would be (and already are in large scales) the beneficiaries of battery power.
Back to the original question - my crystal ball gets hazy after a few years. But for the next few years, I would expect most locomotive manufacturers (Bachmann the obvious exception) would strive to keep DCC and sound as a quality differentiator with an accompanying price premium. By offering a non-sound/non-DCC, and perhaps less detailed version at a lower price, they can tack on the price premium for the extras. From the manufacturing perspective, the extra model numbers are not that much of a problem. At the retail level, the extra model numbers create inventory issues and grumbling, but I don't think the discontent will rise to the level of refusing to carry a line.
I agree with those who said that there is a need and market for both the premium and the "cheap" locomotives - cheap being defined as within the reach of a teenager or as a Christmas gift. And there will be plenty of less committed adults (CNJ's "dabblers") or just plain cheapskates who will also buy the low end locomotives (me). There is no need for DCC in the low end, so DC will remain for a while to come. Whether or not a cheap dual decoder is put in the DC version will depend on cost for decoder install vs cost of extra model number handling.
just my thoughts, or perhaps wishful thinking on my part
Fred W
To answer your question specifically, yes, I think it will be phased out by manufacturers, but it will not be hard to find on the used market. That's okay, DC control components are robust and tend to last forever if they are made right to begin with and are not abused. They will be plentiful. When it will be phased out by manufacturers is anybody's guess. Decades probably. DCC control may be phased out eventually too.
It sounds as though the question is asked out of fear of what you own now possible being unrunnable in a few years, rather than out of what is best for your needs and future plans. I am of the philosophy that you buy new technology when you need it, rather than out of fear that what you have now will no longer be "supported" by the industry. If what you have is decent quality stuff in good shape, it will likely last a long time and you'll never need to buy anything else.
Wondering to go DCC or not?
If you are singularly focused on running multiple locomotives by multiple manufacturers together, or having sound, you'll need DCC. If you are singularly focused on detailing a scene, photgraphing it and posting it on a forum, you don't need DCC to do that. How much of both extremes you want is up to you and that relationship should decide how you spend your model railroading time and money.
Paul3BTW, anyone suprised that Sheldon has 7 posts in less than 6 hours on this thread?
Only because I respond to each poster seperately and/or seperate different ideas or aspects into different posts.
Paul3 Sheldon,Of course I bring up the issues of clubs. I've been a member of one for over 15 years. It's no different than you bringing up your own layout (which you do quite often). I think you are wrong about there being no further conversions to DCC from established layout owners. Sure, those that aren't moving or rebuilding their layouts probably won't change anytime soon, but each time a new HO or N-scale layout is built, that owner has a choice to make: DC or DCC. That goes for the greenest newbie to the most grizzled veteran model railroader. Look at all the "name" model railroaders that are starting new layouts in the past 10 years. These are new converts to DCC that would probably have never changed if not for a new layout.
I only brought that up because that other poster brought up clubs out of thin air regarding my comments - he assumed, I never said anything about clubs - I don't even think about them until someone else brings it up.
I might be wrong about the conversion "rate" of existing established modelers, but its what I see among modelers I know and its based on comments from a few shop owners I know. They see conversions by long time modelers leveling off.
Sure, a few will make the switch if they build a new layout, but some will look at the big pile of reuseable hardware they have and not change for all the same reasons they did not rewire the last layout.
Paul3FWIW, if you have two locos that run fine together on DC and put identical DCC decoders in them, they won't need to be speed matched 99.99% of the time. OTOH, if you have two locos that won't run well together with DC, they can be made to run well together with DCC.
I have seen and heard different experiances from different DCC users on this issue - But all I need is for my Athearn F's to run together, my Bachmann 2-8-0's to run together, etc,etc. BUT actually my P2K 2-8-8-2's run real nice with my Spectrum 2-6-6-2's. Lots of different brand/type locos run together quite well on DC.
Paul3In regards to "thorns in butt"... I find it interesting that you enjoy difficult wiring puzzle solving for the challenge of it, but you don't give equal credit to the idea that other people might like the challenges of DCC as well. In many of our discussions in the past, you have talked about the difficulties of DCC (programming, etc.). Has it occured to you that some of us may feel about programming like you feel about wiring up circuits?
I'm sure they do, never indicated otherwise regarding others. I'm sure many people enjoy the computer aspects of DCC. I considered it for DCC, I considered it for computerized block control and I considered it for signaling and decided in all three cases I would rather not. Yet on many occasions I have recommended DCC and/or computer based signaling to others - based on their needs/wants/likes/dislikes/skills, etc.
Paul3I know there's a lot of people that love vinyl, but I have to tell you I can't tell the difference between that and digital. And judging by the vast numbers of digital sound being sold vs. analog, most other people can't, either.
This view is quite common today, if its good enough for you fine. Bad sound gives me a headache, be it a fine piece of music played on lousy equipment or a squawky HO onboard sound system.
Sheldon
davidmbedard Where is my shovel? For the love of God.... David B
Where is my shovel? For the love of God....
David B
Don't you think a dragline might work better?
Hamltnblue Graffen Javelina ATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs. And I'll bet you're listening to them on a wicked hi power tube amp (that you probably built yourself). My old vinyl is in mediocre shape, having survived many trips across the country and several cats, but every click and pop brings back the memories of good times. Lou Anyone heard of BlueRay? It WILL phase out both LP´s and CD´s. The dynamic range is greater than the old recordings can achieve. And to the DC Vs. DCC? I think some will always run DC but the Mfg´s won´t sell DC in the future, only DCC equipped. It´s the same all over. Some people like to do it old school and the majority keeps up with the progress. I have a feeling that Blueray will have a pretty short life. Solid state thumb drives are quickly getting smaller and cheaper. Hard drives are now offered in solid state with no moving parts. I think that once SSD devices get just a little cheaper you'll see some sort of replacement for the DVD/Blueray that doesn't have any moving parts. You'll just plug your movie in like a USB thumb drive or similar.
Graffen Javelina ATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs. And I'll bet you're listening to them on a wicked hi power tube amp (that you probably built yourself). My old vinyl is in mediocre shape, having survived many trips across the country and several cats, but every click and pop brings back the memories of good times. Lou Anyone heard of BlueRay? It WILL phase out both LP´s and CD´s. The dynamic range is greater than the old recordings can achieve. And to the DC Vs. DCC? I think some will always run DC but the Mfg´s won´t sell DC in the future, only DCC equipped. It´s the same all over. Some people like to do it old school and the majority keeps up with the progress.
Javelina ATLANTIC CENTRAL I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs. And I'll bet you're listening to them on a wicked hi power tube amp (that you probably built yourself). My old vinyl is in mediocre shape, having survived many trips across the country and several cats, but every click and pop brings back the memories of good times. Lou
What is this? Everyone looking for the ONE system that will be the ONLY ONE THAT WILL BE USED BY EVERYONE?
Sheeesh
davidmbedard Where is my shovel? For the love of God....David B
Would that be a digital shovel or a manual one? and does it have sound
My parents still have a BETA machine ... remember those?
And my father still uses a 3" floppy for his computer stuff ... too.
Somethings we never change.
dsabourne My parents still have a BETA machine ... remember those? And my father still uses a 3" floppy for his computer stuff ... too. Somethings we never change.
rrebell dsabourne My parents still have a BETA machine ... remember those? And my father still uses a 3" floppy for his computer stuff ... too. Somethings we never change. You can still get 8-track tapes with currant music too!
There is a few places that will convert VHS into BETA as well as DVD conversion. DVD into BETA
Huh. Imagine that.
My sister still has her old rotary phone in case her more "advanced" phones go on the fritz---
blownout cylinderWhat is this? Everyone looking for the ONE system that will be the ONLY ONE THAT WILL BE USED BY EVERYONE?
And is this not what lots of things come down to - those who desire uniformity vs those who desire choice?
It has nothing to do with uniformity. It's has everything to do with availability. Each generation has a standard adopted that the majority of companies will produce to. Some others will co-exist but if you follow technology, the age of moving drives is getting ready to move on. I have a blueray player and have only purchased 2 movies. I continue to buy standard DVD's because they're much cheaper. I also have a solid state hard drive in my computer and it flies compared to the fastest disk type hard drive. The prices are dropping quickly and capacities are also growing. Some said sheeesh back when it was predicted that the digital age that we are in was approaching.
Hamltnblue It has nothing to do with uniformity. It's has everything to do with availability. Each generation has a standard adopted that the majority of companies will produce to. Some others will co-exist but if you follow technology, the age of moving drives is getting ready to move on. I have a blueray player and have only purchased 2 movies. I continue to buy standard DVD's because they're much cheaper. I also have a solid state hard drive in my computer and it flies compared to the fastest disk type hard drive. The prices are dropping quickly and capacities are also growing. Some said sheeesh back when it was predicted that the digital age that we are in was approaching.
I have a Blue Ray player, a high end DVD player, a DVD/VCR combo player, a 6 disc DC player,a double cassette deck and two turntables, and that is just on my main stereo/home theater system.
We have hundreds of VHS movies and DVD movies, as well as the previously mentioned 1700 vinyl records and 800 plus CD's.
The point is not against new technology, the point is it is not "necessary" to completely abandon or replace the old technology if it still meets YOUR needs.
"Better" is often very subjective based on individual needs and perceptions.
The trouble with blueray is 1: they are more expensive 2: a movie has to be filmed in a way to make use of its powers, not all movies are and of course older ones are not, kinda the same reasons HD is just starting to take over but it is being bought more because of big size TV's than the benefits from most shows on HD as they are not filmed in a format that allows for the better picture. Blueray will not last long enough to gain enough market share as technology advances. Remember the Beta vs VHS wars and market forces won out over a better picture.
So it looks like DC won't be going away any time soon. DCC still runs the motor with DC, those super batteries will be DC....
And then you can do it like Trix did it on their newer Loco´s, a "Sinus-drive"!!!
It uses DC (or AC, as it is used by Maerklin as well) and then uses a proprietary circuit board and decoder to drive the motor. You can´t install another decoder (to get sound) as the motor-control is so different. So they have almost phased out DC AND DCC!