Im planning a new layout. All my locos are DC. Wondering if I should go to DCC or not. Do you think DC will be eventually phased out and hard to find? I only plan on running two locos simultaneously.
AndrewRRDo you think DC will be eventually phased out and hard to find?
OK DCC chaps, fess up, how many of you read this question and felt like answering in a way specifically to provoke Sheldon? Tempting as it is I resisted!!
Actually, I can't imagine DC phasing out any time in the near future. It really is not all that hard to rip out a decoder and convert a loco to pure DC control anyway, even if manufacturers stopped producing DC only locos.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Nothing says you can't start with DC and if you change your mind convert to DCC. The wiring is basically the same. If I had DC loco's I'd convert a couple of them at first and run both DCC and DC with a switch to determine which would be on that day. Over time you slowly convert a larger amount of loco's over and eventually move totally to DCC. Some people are totally happy with DC and will stay there. It's all a personal choice.
Springfield PA
The DCC Crowd would like you to believe that is just around the corner, it's NOT. Although the DCC operators make more noise, the dirty little secret that they don't talk about, is that they are still the minority, and that there are still more DC operators, than there are DCC operators.
I would expect DC to be around a LOOONNGGG time yet. What may likely happen is that most mid and high-end locomotives will come equipped with DUAL-MODE decoders, that will allow the locomotives to be operated on EITHER DC or DCC layouts. Dual-mode decoders have been available for years and are nothing new, and likely have been Factory installed in more locomotives than DCC ONLY decoders.
The entry level "Train sets" will likely take even longer to go DCC. The dual-mode decoder allows a manufacturer to market their locomotives to larger number of customers than either DC only or DCC only locomotives, at a very slight increase in cost.
The DC operator will be able to buy new motive power for a very long time to come yet, the sky is not falling.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Even though I support DCC and built my HO scale home layout to run only on DCC, I don't believe that DC control will go away in my lifetime. I wired a large HO scale club layout so it can be operated either way, and we occasionally still need to run something on DC, if for no other reason than to see if it runs well enough to be worthy of conversion to DCC.
I think the market forces will slowly strangle DC.
There, I said it.
It won't be with a bang, but with a whimper...no, nary a whimper...a slow sigh that sinks into inaudibilty.
It will take maybe two decades yet, perhaps three, but the time will come when DC has no market, and DCC will be struggling mightily to keep its head above water. Whatever replaces DCC will be the new kid on the block.
What we'll have is a bunch of people who buy decodered engines and strip them of their electronics so that they can run them silently on their blocked and selector/relay clacking DC layouts.
You know who you are...
I don´t think, DC will be phased out soon. DCC will spread out even more, with the better part of the locos being available DCC ready (plug & play) or DCC equipped in the near future. The entry segment will remain DC, I just cannot picture some cashing out $ 500 - $ 800 for a Christmas train set ...
AndrewRRIm planning a new layout. All my locos are DC.
First, welcome aboard.
First, it's important to ask how many DC locos you have, and how old / good they are. New DCC-ready engines are easy to convert, while some older engines require some ingenuity (or maybe "engine-uity") to install decoders. There are people here with literally a hundred or more engines, so conversion is not a simple or cheap proposition.
Having done both, I'd say that it's easier to wire a new layout for DCC than for DC. You don't need to worry about blocks for train control, or making provisions for cab control.
I'm an enthusiastic DCC user, but I'd agree that DC will be around for a long time. In fact, it may actually outlive DCC, because sooner or later, something better will come along for digital train control, and it will supplant DCC, while DC will still roll along. That's going to be a while, though, so I'd advise going with DCC right away if you can convert those locomotives without too much pain.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
THEY can have my DC when they pry my cold, dead fingers from my spool of magnet wire. Gotta admit, the thread title did seem a bit flammable. Caught my attention. I guess the day will come when you won't be able to buy a plain Jane DC loco. Us DC guys'll have to "convert" them to staight DC and sell the guts to a DCC guy at a swap meet. It'll be like the olden days, in reverse.
Lou
challenger3980The DCC Crowd would like you to believe that is just around the corner, it's NOT. Although the DCC operators make more noise, the dirty little secret that they don't talk about, is that they are still the minority, and that there are still more DC operators, than there are DCC operators
Slightly unfair generalization, the vast majority of DCC users accept and respect that there are legions of DC users out there.
First of all, AFAIK there is no hard data to support any assumptions about the numbers of DC compared to DCC operators. From anecdotal evidence, I would say that most would agree that of the total number of operators that DC is in the majority. But also from anecdotal evidence, I would say that within the past 5-10 years, the majority of new layouts under construction that are DCC. In other words I think that many would agree that the trend is towards DCC. Just look at this forum, there are daily questions about converting to DCC, There are very few questions about wiring complex block control for DC. So at some point, DCC will be in the majority, but there will still be a lot of DC layouts.
challenger3980The entry level "Train sets" will likely take even longer to go DCC.
Bachmann, one of the purveyors of basic train sets, of course offers a DCC set. But given that the average train set contains the cheapest low end DC controller possible, it is indeed unlikely that these will shift away from DC for cost reasons if nothing else. For buyers of these sets, if the hobby ever develops beyond the simple loop, then DCC comes into consideration.
The bottom line is that DCC is asked about far more, and perhaps this leads to the impression that DCC guys just blow off DC guys?
So I don't disagree with anything you wrote other than the fact that I don't believe that there is some sinister DCC plot with a "dirty little secret".
AndrewRR,DC will always be with us if because it'll always be less expensive. There is a significant segment of the hobby where cost is the most important factor, and there will be some manufacturers that will cater to that segment because it makes them money. Therefore, don't worry that DC analog is going anywhere. If you feel like you have to convert to DCC because of possible shortages of DC analog items...relax. It's not going to happen.
Instead, if you're going to pick DCC, use the reasons such as the ease of wiring, total independant control of your locos at any time in any direction, running dissimilar locos together, complete customization of your loco's operation, and the ability to tap large numbers of other DCC users on the internet for assistance.
simon1966,Actually, my first thought was "What a can of worms that's gonna be!" But don't worry, I'm sure Sheldon will be here soon, talking about how we're all "brainwashed" by the manufacturers and the magazines into preferring DCC. Right, Sheldon?
challenger3980,"Dirty little secret"? Riiiight.
We'll tell you straight up that DCC is not the majority of the entire hobby. In fact, it may never be. Why? One reason is that DCC has almost no market penetration into any scale other than N or HO. O-gauge has two digital systems (Lionel and MTH)...neither of which is DCC. S-gauge is mostly AC analog, and G is mostly DC analog or radio control (not much DCC there, either). The other scales like TT, Z, 7.5" gauge, et al., are too small in number to matter much.
Going by quoted numbers I've heard, HO is just over 50% of the entire hobby, and N is at around 25% or more. If half of all HO and N-scalers are DCC, that's still only 37% or so of the entire hobby. It would take 2/3rds of all HO and N-scalers to make DCC just 50% of the entire hobby. Getting such a majority is pretty much impossible because of the large numbers of those that are not all that serious in the hobby...what I call the "fringe" model railroaders. These are the folks that buy Tyco, Bachmann, Life-Like, et al., who don't care much about the quality of their models, only that they look pretty. They buy the magazines and enjoy what they get out of it, but they could just as easily be flying R/C airplanes next year instead.
IMHO (and I have absolutely no numbers to back this up), I will state that I think most "lifer" HO & N model railroaders are now into DCC. IOW, those that have chosen the hobby for the forseeable future, those that have permanent layouts, those that have joined a club, those that do more in the hobby over all... I think the majority of these types of model railroaders have gone with DCC. Look at all the HO & N clubs that have converted (just about every single one in New England has DCC). Years ago, Lenz claimed to have sold over 1 million DCC decoders; Digitrax, NCE, and TCS can't be far behind. When was the last time you heard of a big layout being built without DCC? It's all anecdotal, but I think DCC has made significant inroads into the HO and N markets...so much so that they are the majority for those that are really "into" the hobby in those scales. But that's just my opinion and has no basis other than that. Take it with a grain of salt since I am a DCC user and have been for over 10 years.
selector,I've been hearing the "DCC will be replaced soon!" mantra so long that it's become comical. I know that over on the old Atlas Forum before the Great Forum Shutdown of 2004, there were some that said that DCC would be replaced in 5 years. Well, here it is in 2010, and we're still waiting. So far, the only challenger to DCC has been DCS. While more advanced, DCS hasn't converted anyone that I've heard of. What people don't seem to realize is that DCC is an NMRA Standard. They don't exactly change often. But if it needs changing to upgrade the system, the NMRA will make that change. All DCC command stations from the big three (Lenz, NCE, and Digitrax) can have their software upgraded to handle new NMRA DCC Standards. So any advances in technology can be handled if needed. And so far, it hasn't been.
Paul A. Cutler III
I'm no electronics expert by ANY means, but it seems to me that DC is basically what comes out of your home wall outlet, where as DCC is heavily dependent upon software-type programming. Based upon the way that software changes over time, I would think it is more likely that newer model railroad software based control systems would tend to become incompatible with older molder railroad software systems over time, before the United States changes the nature of its electrical grid.
- Douglas
While I'm someone who recently made the switch to DCC (still in that process), I don't think DC will ever go away.
I'm surprised no one brought this up: the fact that you can run DC on a DCC system. For example, starter sets such as Digitrax Zephyr and Bachman E-Z Command have special addresses (I believe 00 and 10, respectively) that are reserved for DC locomotives.So if you see yourself eventually making the switch to DCC, especially if the switch may take a while and not all at once, buy a system that supports DC and DCC operation. It will allow you to keep running your DC locomotives, without having to buy a new system later.
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
ns3010It will allow you to keep running your DC locomotives, without having to buy a new system later.
Yes, you can do that on some systems. I've got a Lenz, and I can do that, and have done that.
But, chances are you won't like it. The adaptation that DCC uses to run DC locomotives is a poor one. The DC locomotive buzzes loudly and doesn't perform the way it does on real DC. You can't consist it with DCC locomotives, or do most of things that make DCC desireable. The best thing about running DC engines on DCC is that is makes you go out and install a decoder.
DoughlessI'm no electronics expert by ANY means, but it seems to me that DC is basically what comes out of your home wall outlet..,
Not the same at all. What comes to your home, and is available at all house wiring ends, including lighting and wall sockets, is alternating current. DC is direct current. AC current reverses itself 60 cycles per second in N. America, whereas your DC railway current flows one direction, maintaining constant polarity differential between the two rails, between the poles of batteries, etc.
In fact, it would be somewhat closer to the truth to claim that DCC is closer to household current since it is a variation of AC current.
-Crandell
I have used DCC for over ten years. One of the arguments for staying with DC is the cost to convert all of one's locomotives to DCC. More than half of my locomotives are still DC. I have decoders, but just don't run them that much.
The problem with DC is the cost of the layout if you wnat to run more than one locomotive. I enjoy running trains and it is nice not to have to worry about blocks and switches. With DCC I can orbit one or two trains unattended and run one myself. Probably difficult to do with DC.
The argument that DCC programing is too complex is no longer valaid with the advent of Decoder Pro.
All this being said, I believe DC will be arround for a long time. One of these factors may be because of DCC sound. My preference is to buy a DC locomotive and slelect a DCC sound decoder that I like. Look at the extensive discussions regarding which is the best sound decoder.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
The big difference with household current and DC and/or DCC is that household will turn your locos into a fire ball in about a second. It will also kill you if you touch the track with the voltage on it.
Like said before though DC is steady like a battery. DCC pulses in 1 direction and carries the data that the decoders read to get commands from your controller.
I do not see DC and DCC as necessarily competing, or that one is going to overtake or outmode the other. They offer a choice. That choice can be made based on personal preference and needs. By way of analogy, looking back at the history of N scale, there were many modelers in the 60's and 70's who were writing of the demise of HO (and larger scales). It never happened. Those who saw the advantages of N gauge went in that direction. Those who saw the advantages of HO (or O, G or whatever) went in that direction. Some model in multiple scales. Our hobby is diverse. That's fine with me. Back to the point and in response to the original poster, I would not make any decisions today based on whether DC or DCC will ultimately prevail.
John Timm
selector DoughlessI'm no electronics expert by ANY means, but it seems to me that DC is basically what comes out of your home wall outlet.., Not the same at all. What comes to your home, and is available at all house wiring ends, including lighting and wall sockets, is alternating current. DC is direct current. AC current reverses itself 60 cycles per second in N. America, whereas your DC railway current flows one direction, maintaining constant polarity differential between the two rails, between the poles of batteries, etc. In fact, it would be somewhat closer to the truth to claim that DCC is closer to household current since it is a variation of AC current. -Crandell
Here I am, in 2010, typing things like that. My poor ol' dad, who was an electronics technician by trade, would be rolling over in his grave if he read what I typed. My guess is he told me that household current is AC at least several times when I was a kid.
selectorWhat we'll have is a bunch of people who buy decodered engines and strip them of their electronics so that they can run them silently on their blocked and selector/relay clacking DC layouts.
Heck, I'm already buying DCC locos and removing decoders, but only when the price is so low as to make them a bargin, decoder or no decoder.
My BLI Heavy Mikado's have Bachmann Spectrum long haul tenders. My BLI Class A has a Bachmann Kanawha (2-8-4) tender.
The nice people at Bachmann provide nice jumpers so you can remove those pesky decoders from their DCC equiped steam locos. I sell them on E-bay.
Sheldon
As someone has already pointed out, many DCC users prefer to choose their own decoder. And many DCC users do not need sound in every loco or do not want sound at all.
So the current offerings from most manufacturers of DCC with sound, and DCC ready versions, fills all the market needs very well.
Those who want plop and play DCC with sound can shell out the big bucks. Others can buy DCC ready versions and equip, or not equip them to thier needs.
Bachmann now chooses to DCC with sound and locos with DCC no sound, BUT, the low prices of the DCC no sound versions are similar to others DCC ready versions, and, they provide those nice jumpers for us DC operators who don't want the decoders.
Seems perfect to me.
A few random thoughts on the topic and the comments thus far:
DCC is a great system, however its price and complexity are not a match to my needs, just like, A BMW is a great car, but its added features/benifits do not justify its price for my needs - I drive a Ford.
It is about operational needs and wants, and, sometimes about what you don't need or want. To assume one size fits all or that everyone has the same goals for their layout is faulty thinking.
To assume DCC is always the best choice for every layout and every person is faulty thinking.
If I had any interest in onboard sound, or thought the current sound systems sounded good enough to justify their cost, I would go to DCC in a heart beat. I have repeatedly recommended other do the same if they want sound in HO or N. I personally have no interest in onboard sound in HO.
If I was building a layout with a different theme, I would likely consider DCC - but I'm not. I considered DCC twice in fact - rejected it both times for the current layout theme. Since I have a great deal of time and money invested in the current theme, and I enjoy modeling in that theme very much, I suspect it is not likely to change - ever.
I have been in this hobby a long time (40 years), I have learned what I like and what I don't. Those things do not change with each new product offering - be it a new locomotive or a new control system.
Paul repeatedly brings up the issue of clubs - I will concede that if you are the "club joining type" you probably want to go DCC. there is a "social" aspect to doing what your group is doing.
Many, many in this hobby have little or no interest in clubs, even many who are active on forums like this or are active in the NMRA. Rather than clubs, they prefer small informal groups of their own friends, or, prefer that their trains be more of a private/personal/family thing.
I don't haul my trains around to clubs, or even to my friends layouts, so doing what "they" are doing, or being "compatable" with them is of no importance.
I predict that most newcomers to the hobby will go for DCC, even if they don't do it right away. I also predict that most of the established modelers who have not gone DCC by now, will not ever. This relates back to my comments above. Those who like/want sound have already converted. Those who are in "social" groups or clubs that are using DCC, have already converted. Even experianced lone wolves have either made the switch or will not - for the most part.
DCC is great for those who have no real interest in "planning" a layout but rather prefer to just let it "grow" and evolve. DC, if it is to be easy to use and effective, must be planned.
Still very happy with my wireless, pulse width modulated, DC control throttles and the associated push button cab control, detection, signaling, working interlocking signals, one button route selection turnout controls, and CTC and/or walk around control system I use with them.
Still very happy to not have to install decoders in 100 locos, use a computer to program them or have to speed match two locos that without decoders run just fine together.
Still happy to not have to turn on headlights and still happy with no sound.
And still happy to be wiring my "complex" system that intergrates signaling, turnout controls, colision avoidance, CTC and cab assignments, all into one system.
Good post from an DC point of view. One major incorrect statement though.
"DCC is great for those who have no real interest in "planning" a layout but rather prefer to just let it "grow" and evolve. DC, if it is to be easy to use and effective, must be planned.
I haven't visited a club yet that wasn't planned and most have converted to DCC or started out that way. planning a layout isn't based around the electrical system unless it's DC. With DCC you still have the same level of planning but the electrical system isn't as much as a thorn in the butt.
If you're happy with DC that's great. I've run both and love the DCC with sound.
As to the original question, running two engines separately on a small to medium size layout is going to be much easier with DCC. On DC you have to have separate blocks and be sure each engine is in it's own block and doesn't stray into another block and start being controlled by the other throttle.
I think you could someday see time when the manufacturers only make engines with decoders, using "dual mode" decoders which use DC or DCC equally well. BTW, for the DC folks who remove the decoders...you know your engine will run just fine on DC without doing that - and be ready to use when you take the plunge to DCC, right??
Look at music...I have CDs, LPs, audio cassettes, 8-track tapes, 45s, 78s, and open-reel tapes...and that just covers basically my lifetime, back to the 1950's. It would have been hard to convince someone in 1980 that LP records would be antiques in 20 years.
Hamltnblue Good post from an DC point of view. One major incorrect statement though. "DCC is great for those who have no real interest in "planning" a layout but rather prefer to just let it "grow" and evolve. DC, if it is to be easy to use and effective, must be planned. I haven't visited a club yet that wasn't planned and most have converted to DCC or started out that way. planning a layout isn't based around the electrical system unless it's DC. With DCC you still have the same level of planning but the electrical system isn't as much as a thorn in the butt. If you're happy with DC that's great. I've run both and love the DCC with sound.
First, I was not refering to clubs, but to indivdual home layouts. AND, I did not say that you could not or should not plan a layout for DCC. What I said was, that for those who don't plan, or are not good at planning, DCC works better and is more flexible.
You are welcome to your view that such planning is "a thorn in the butt", for some of us it is one of the fun and challenging aspects of the hobby - no different from scratch building or hand laying track or developing a prototypical operating scheme. Many find those activities to be "a thorn in the butt" too.
wjstixBTW, for the DC folks who remove the decoders...you know your engine will run just fine on DC without doing that - and be ready to use when you take the plunge to DCC, right??
This is not universally true - I use Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio throttles and their output is a full voltage pulse with modulated signal similar to the motor output of a DCC decoder. Most dual mode decoders DO NOT run well on this type of DC throttle.
There are a number of other DC throttles on the market with similar problems/results.
Inexpensive dual mode decoders, such as the ones built into Bachmann regular line DCC On Board diesel locos, will not run at all on my Train Engineer throttles. AND, most dual most dual mode sound decoders result in Jack rabbit starts around 35 SMPH when used with many/most DC throttles including the Train Engineer.
I know all of this from first hand testing - how many DCC decoders have you tested on how many diffeent brands of power packs/throttles? I will keep removing them thank you.
wjstixLook at music...I have CDs, LPs, audio cassettes, 8-track tapes, 45s, 78s, and open-reel tapes...and that just covers basically my lifetime, back to the 1950's. It would have been hard to convince someone in 1980 that LP records would be antiques in 20 years.
I still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI still have 1700 vinyl records in mint condition and two turnables, and most sound better than my 800 Compact discs.
I just picked up a re-release in vinyl of Hawkwind's Space Ritual album. Yes. There are re-releases in vinyl happening---as well as releases
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Bachmann now chooses to DCC with sound and locos with DCC no sound, BUT, the low prices of the DCC no sound versions are similar to others DCC ready versions, and, they provide those nice jumpers for us DC operators who don't want the decoders. Seems perfect to me. Sheldon
The problem with this is, a serious DC user will rip out the cheap Bachmann decoders - and so will a serious DCC user. It really is that bad, which probably explains how they can offer a loco with a decoder in it for the same price as a comparable loco from someone else that only has a DCC socket.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker The problem with this is, a serious DC user will rip out the cheap Bachmann decoders - and so will a serious DCC user. It really is that bad, which probably explains how they can offer a loco with a decoder in it for the same price as a comparable loco from someone else that only has a DCC socket.
Agreed, but as long as they keep suppling the jumpers, and I keep getting $30 for three Bachmann decoders when I sell them on Ebay - its like getting the loco $10 cheaper.
blownout cylinderI just picked up a re-release in vinyl of Hawkwind's Space Ritual album. Yes. There are re-releases in vinyl happening---as well as releases
Yes, I know, because analog music sounds better on an analog recording!