Soldering Help!!!

[rrinker]

 That's pretty much all Radio Shack is in the US as well - a cell phone store. They have a small cabinet with  few parts (way overpriced - for the price they charge for a 5 pack of resistors I can get like 100 from Mouser), and no one in the store has the slightest clue about anything, but they do still sell soldering irons and solder in that small section is where they also have the tip tinner and rosin flux. Failing that, you might want to see if H&N will ship to Canada - their flux at least is water soluable and safe to transport through the US Mail so it may be able to go internationally. They do have a currency converter on their web site so one would expect they ship at least somewhere besides the US. I ordered flux from here ont he recommendation of someone else on the forum and it works very well. I got paste and liquid - have no real need for the liquid. Here's the page (really BAD web page design, but it's all there): http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/ They don't manufacture the stuff so it's possible there is a supplier in Canada in case they charge too much to ship international. Disclaimer: I have no connection to this company, just a satisifed customer

                                            --Randy

 

[dsabourne]

Thanks for the "tips" Randy.  I have seen brass shavings used for tip cleaning.  I'm going if they have them at our local Radio Shack equivalent here ... unfortunately our Radio Shacks became The Source (thesource.ca) by Circuit City ... and then in Circuit City's financial woes was bought out by Bell (Bell Canada) and has really phased out a lot of the small Radio Shack parts supply ... now focusing on mainstream electronics, TVs, cell and portable phones etc.  Staff are not very knowledge ... ie. my soldering supply issue.

The US Radio Shack website has a lot more stuff ... like the old Radio Shack ... I'm wondering if I can order directly through them to Canada?

Betamax - Thanks for web links ... I guess I have to check out these more specific specialty electronic stores/suppliers than just be able to go to my local Radio Shack in the mall ... see my above comment about Radio Shacks in Canada transformation into The Source. 

David

[betamax]

dsabourne

Well I did it!!  I did my first soldering yesterday ... and it was as bad or difficult as I made it to be!

Just on question on wire tinning ... should I pre-tin the tip with solder first and then pre-tin the wire ... I tried look back through the comments and couldn't find clear recommendation.  Some of the You-Tube videos did so ... others noted using flux.  To date, I haven't been able to readily find flux at Canadian stores ... all the solder I find is rosin-core.

Thanks,

David

Try Sayall Electronics

http://www.sayal.com/

They have all sorts of things and they do show a location in Cambridge.

Their flux is here

http://tinyurl.com/37yl88x

Tinning the wire will definitely help. Apply some flux, tin the wire, apply a little more flux to the wire after it has cooled or to the rail, then solder in place. Be sure to wet the iron with a little solder first.

You should use a large chisel tip for this process. A small pencil tip doesn't have the thermal mass needed, and the rail will just suck the heat out of it. The bigger tip won't do that. If you can, you should have about 700 degrees at the tip. A hot iron, a little flux, and the process is so fast it isn't funny.

If it takes too long, the work is not clean, the iron isn't hot enough, or the tip can't stay hot enough. A little flux helps with corrosion on the work, a large hot tip helps with the heating of the work. Otherwise, it just won't work, or you will end up with a cold solder joint because the solder didn't flow properly. If it balls up, it could be that the wire is coated with something solder doesn't alloy with.

[rrinker]

 Yes, the tip of the solderign iron should be tinned - but don't leave blobs of solder hanging on it. A sponge slightly wetted with water works to keep the tip clean, however my sodlerign station came with a stand that incorporated a copper pad that I think works much better, plus it doesn't cool down the tip liek the wet sponge will. It looks somewhat like a piece of scouring pad as used to clean pots and pans - but do NOT use the steel ones, they will wear the soft copper tip of the soldering iron right off. I've seen the copper pads in the grocery store as well - for cleaning copper pots. In addition, you might be able to find a tip tinner compound in your equivalent of Radio Shack, I know they have it int he Radio Shacks here. Not sure what mine is made of, it's called lead-free tip tinner and it came from H&N where I bought my flux. In the old days a block of sal ammoniac was used, I don't think that's available anymore, it's probably considered so dangerous that one whiff will kill you instantly, despite the fact the peopel used it for years. You just rub the hot tip on the material (it melts) and it tins up nice and shiny - follow with a wipe. The tip needs to be nice and shiny for effective heat transfer, When it starts to dull and get black spots on it, it takes longer to heat up the joint and that's when you start melting things. Always keep the tip clean, and you will have much better luck soldering. It's not the high heat that melts ties when sodlering track, it's keeping that heat on too long. With a clean tinned tip, it takes less than a second to heat the immediate area to effectivelt flow the solder. The heat never has time to spread to the ties and melt them. With a dirty tip, you end up holding the iron in place for several seconds and EVERYTHING gets hot.

                                                   --Randy

 

[dsabourne]

Well I did it!!  I did my first soldering yesterday ... and it was as bad or difficult as I made it to be!

Just on question on wire tinning ... should I pre-tin the tip with solder first and then pre-tin the wire ... I tried look back through the comments and couldn't find clear recommendation.  Some of the You-Tube videos did so ... others noted using flux.  To date, I haven't been able to readily find flux at Canadian stores ... all the solder I find is rosin-core.

Thanks,

David

[jwhitten]

tomikawaTT

Since the youngest 'kid' who resides in my humble abode has been drawing Social Security for ten years...  OTOH, even as a callow youth I was smart enough to avoid eating solder.  (If you get the idea that I'm not a big fan of idiot-proof solder, you got it in one.)

 

 

I'm glad you clarified that, I was leaning toward thinking you were just spectacularly incurious... 

 

John

[tomikawaTT]

Since the youngest 'kid' who resides in my humble abode has been drawing Social Security for ten years...  OTOH, even as a callow youth I was smart enough to avoid eating solder.  (If you get the idea that I'm not a big fan of idiot-proof solder, you got it in one.)

Here's a heads-up on a potential safety hazard.  Unnoticed by me, the trigger switch on my ancient Weller gun stuck ON.  By the time the breaker on the power bar snapped, it was too late.  Smoke was pouring out of the casing.  RIP, old friend.  I've already purchased the most powerful available replacement - 255 watts, versus the old one's 325 watts.

Moral of the story.  A cheap circuit breaker equipped power bar kept the lights on and saved a trip out and around the garage to the main breaker box.  If I had been using a plain extension cord, things would have been a lot less convenient.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[jwhitten]

jkeaton

john wrote:

"Good joints have a bright and shiny appearance."

Be aware that this depends on the solder you're using - the new, safer lead-free solders produce joints that are not as shiny as the older lead solders.  The difference in the surface is like the difference between flat glass and ripple glass - flat glass can just gleam, like a good lead solder joint, while lead-free solder joints are smooth but never get that gleaming surface.

 Lead-free solder, on the other hand, can be safely used in a house with children, where you would need good ventilation if using lead solder around kids.

 Jim

 

 

 

Yes, that's a good point.

[jkeaton]

john wrote:

"Good joints have a bright and shiny appearance."

Be aware that this depends on the solder you're using - the new, safer lead-free solders produce joints that are not as shiny as the older lead solders.  The difference in the surface is like the difference between flat glass and ripple glass - flat glass can just gleam, like a good lead solder joint, while lead-free solder joints are smooth but never get that gleaming surface.

 Lead-free solder, on the other hand, can be safely used in a house with children, where you would need good ventilation if using lead solder around kids.

 Jim

 

[da_kraut]

Hi,

the only electronics shop that I know of in the Kitchener Guelph area is in Guelph.  It is in Guelph and it is called;

Neutron Electronics Ltd, you can find it in the phone book.

Hope it helps

Frank

[Silver Pilot]

jwhitten

But aside from that its okay, right???

John

Yeah, aside from the previously mention items and the weird blue stuff on the top of the RH rail (can't be good for electrical pickup), the gap between the rails at the joint, the ballast in the gap, the odd amount of wear on the RH rail where the railhead has been rounded over, the loose fitting rail joiner and what looks like ballasting glue that has seeped in between the LH rail and the rail joiner making for a questionable electrical connection  - yeah, it's okay.

[Silver Pilot]

Tom,

You are correct, that is the third option.  Since the OP talked about dropping feeders to track that was already in place, I didn't mention it.  It takes a good deal of planning an forethought to do properly.  With flextrack or sectional track it is even more difficult to do without melting ties.  You'd typically see it done with handlaid track since the wire could be soldered to the base of the rail at the workbench and no ties to worry about melting.

[richg1998]

 It looks like this will go on for a while so here are a couple links from a Google search for,

soldering wire to ho track

http://tinyurl.com/yftteu7

Below are You Tube Videos.

http://tinyurl.com/yg8ay2n

Store the links in your Favorites Folder. You can also download the videos to your PC for future use.

Never forget, the Internet is loaded with usefull info.

Rich

[tstage]

Silver Pilot

OhioGuy

Should I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both?

...You can do both/either.  If done properly, soldering the wire to the inside of the rail will not cause problems.  You can do it to hide the feeder wires from viewing.  The picture posted is a poor example of how to solder and of proper trackwork.  Do not use it as a reference as "how to"; there appears to be a number of issues with what is pictured.

Actually, there's also a third option: Soldering to the underside of the railing.

Upside:

• Rail surface is uniformly flat (vs.contoured) and easy to solder to
  
• You run little risk of solder interfering with flanges
• Feeders are not visible

Downside:

• This must be done before you lay your track
• Repairs from a bad or broken solder joint require ripping up track
• Doesn't work on track with built-on ballast
  

Tom

[jwhitten]

Silver Pilot

OhioGuy

I hate to ask it, but what's wrong with the pic above?

Where to begin?  First off, for a pic that is supposed to be an example of how to solder feeder wires to the rail, you can not see the feeder wire or the solder joint.  Second, it doesn't even appear that the rail joint has been soldered.  If you look at the right hand section of rail it lloks like the rail joiner is not even properly placed.  It looks like has been either been split and goes above and below the base of the rail or is not properly placed.  Second, the RH rail has been painted, but it shows no evidence of the paint having been removed to prepare the rail for the rail joiner and soldering.  the rail joiner doesn't appear to be painted so the painting of the rail must have been done before the rail joiner was installed.  Also, even looking at the left hand rail there is no evidence of a feeder wire soldered to the rail joiner or of the rail joiner being soldered to the rail.  I would classify soldering the rail joiner with a feeder wire soldered to the rail as a "recommended practice" since you on relying on it to transfer power from the rail joiner to the rail.

There are other issues that are more difficult to describe and other issues with the track work in general that I'll pass on right now.

 

 

But aside from that its okay, right???

 

John

[riogrande5761]

I always made it a habbit to solder outside of the rail due avoid any possible interference with wheel flanges.

[Silver Pilot]

OhioGuy

I hate to ask it, but what's wrong with the pic above?

Where to begin?  First off, for a pic that is supposed to be an example of how to solder feeder wires to the rail, you can not see the feeder wire or the solder joint.  Second, it doesn't even appear that the rail joint has been soldered.  If you look at the right hand section of rail it lloks like the rail joiner is not even properly placed.  It looks like has been either been split and goes above and below the base of the rail or is not properly placed.  Second, the RH rail has been painted, but it shows no evidence of the paint having been removed to prepare the rail for the rail joiner and soldering.  the rail joiner doesn't appear to be painted so the painting of the rail must have been done before the rail joiner was installed.  Also, even looking at the left hand rail there is no evidence of a feeder wire soldered to the rail joiner or of the rail joiner being soldered to the rail.  I would classify soldering the rail joiner with a feeder wire soldered to the rail as a "recommended practice" since you on relying on it to transfer power from the rail joiner to the rail.

There are other issues that are more difficult to describe and other issues with the track work in general that I'll pass on right now.

[OhioGuy]

I hate to ask it, but what's wrong with the pic above?

[Silver Pilot]

jeffrey-wimberly

OhioGuy

Should I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both?

You cannot do both in most cases. While it sometimes works in tight areas soldering to the inside of the rail is ill-advised. I solder the wire to the outside of the rail and usually to the rail joiner. It's hard to see in the photo but the wire is soldered to the joiner.

Jeffrey is incorrect.  You can do both/either.  If done properly, soldering the wire to the inside of the rail will not cause problems.  You can do it to hide the feeder wires from viewing.  The picture posted is a poor example of how to solder and of proper trackwork.  Do not use it as a reference as "how to"; there appears to be a number of issues with what is pictured.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

OhioGuy

Should I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both?

You cannot do both in most cases. While it sometimes works in tight areas soldering to the inside of the rail is ill-advised. I solder the wire to the outside of the rail and usually to the rail joiner. It's hard to see in the photo but the wire is soldered to the joiner.

[jwhitten]

jeffrey-wimberly

If you're rosin core solder it will likely ball up and fall off every time.

 

 

The real key is making sure the workpiece is up to the right temperature first-- but of course when you're doing track you need to be quick if you're using plastic ties, or else use some clip-on heatsinks.

There's nothing wrong with using flux-paste of course, I'm just pointing out that the real problem is that the solder "balls up and falls off" because the surface is not hot enough yet to hold the solder even though its at the point where it can just melt it (i.e. make it bead up). If you just wait an extra moment to solder it won't bead up whichever kind of flux you use, or even flux-core solder. I use the stuff all the time and have for years and don't have that problem unless I get impatient.

 

 John

[jwhitten]

OhioGuy

All, My wife and I just ran our bus and we started to do some of the drops to the bus. We are going to solder the feeder wires to the track. We tried to do this and had a heck of a time doing it. Basically it was a mess/disaster.

 Can someone point me to a good place to learn exactly how to solder a DCC set up? I do not even know what tining is! Any tips would be appreciated also.

 

Thanks as always guys!

 

 

Here are a few tips about soldering in-general-- not a replacement for a real tutorial-- just some add-on advice...

1. *ALWAYS* use a soldering iron with a *CLEAN* tip. I keep a soda bottle around with distilled water in it and a soft sponge for that purpose. It isn't strictly necessary that the water be distilled but it ensures it has a minimum amount of impurities floating around in it. Drip a little water onto the sponge, enough to make it damp but not dripping (what I normally do is flood the sponge over the sink and then squeeze it real hard to make it just "damp", this also has the side effect of cleaning the sponge somewhat). 

The best way to clean the tip is to wait for it to come up to full heat, and then quickly scrape it along the sponge, turning it (around the handle) as you go. You want to hear nice satisfying "ssssphh" sounds like an clothes iron on the steam setting, but you don't want to linger too long and dry out the sponge or burn it. After you've done that once or twice around, then get out a line of solder and just run it straight into the tip until a big ball forms around the tip. If the tip is clean, the ball will be completely uniform around the tip and you're good to go. If its not, it will "divide" ("avoid") the area that's dirty. That's how you know where to keep cleaning. When you've done that all around and the solder blob forms uniformly around the tip, you know you're ready to go.

Always clean the tip when you pick up the soldering iron. If you've been using it and you just set it down briefly, all you probably need to do is wipe the tip. But if its been sitting for a few minutes or more, you should try a solder ball on the tip to make sure its still clean-- and clean it via the above procedure if not.

A dirty soldering iron will *not* solder well and does not conduct heat very well. This will result in "cold" (malformed) solder joints that have a dull, "pebbly" look to them-- or sometimes you'll see a little bubble form and pop (i.e., a "pit" or a "crater" in your joint). Those are classic indicators of a bad solder joint. If that occurs you need to redo the joint-- often just touching it with a *CLEAN* soldering tip will reflow the solder and clean up the joint. But you may have to add a little more solder. Or if using flux, a little more of that.

 

2. Always make sure your working surfaces (the stuff you're soldering to) are *CLEAN*. Use a scotchbright pad (plastic scrubbing pad like for washing dishes) or something similar-- you could use steel wool if you have to though I don't recommend it because it breaks up into little pieces that are magnetic and could get up into your motors and burn them out-- be safe, use a scotchbright or something similar. Clean *BOTH* surfaces, if its wire, clean the wire-- in fact, if you have enough length on the wire and its an "old" end, clip off the end, strip back some of the insulation and use the newly-revealed wire end.

 

3. Make sure everything is clean, in case I forgot to mention it.

 

4. Tin your workpieces. This is quick and easy and it makes for good joints. Heat the workpiece for a moment to get it up to temperature and the touch it with the solder-- it should quickly flow out across the surface. You don't want a big blob, just enough to cover it lightly is all it takes. Then when you are ready to solder them together, touch them mechanically (or give them a twist if its wires) and then heat it up again with the soldering iron. You may need to add a little extra solder to get a nice joint. You want just enough solder to cover the surfaces in a slightly-thick (not overly thick) but still nice and neat coating. You don't want a blob. Blobs are *not* good soldering practice.

 

5. You might want to use "Flux". Flux comes in either a liquid or a paste. Either will work for most purposes. You can also buy solder that already has flux built-in to the center of the strand. *DO NOT USE "ACID CORE" FLUX*  !!!  Don't do it. No Acid-Core Flux. NONONONONO!NOnonono! Rosin-Core GOOD Acid-Core BAD.

Flux coats the surface of the workpiece and helps the molten solder flow more easily across it-- sort of like a "wetting agent" for liquid metal (solder). Again you need to make sure your surfaces are clean and well-prepared before you use it.

 

6. A couple of tips about soldering itself-- you'll want to learn the basics of soldering someplace-- these are for afterwards-- It is often easier and better to place the tip *opposite* the side you want to flow your solder on. For example, if you want to solder on one side of a piece of wire, place the tip on the back side and wait for it to heat through. Obviously if you're soldering something that's connected to something heat-sensitive, you'll want to use your own judgment about that. Don't linger too long with the iron. If its not working right you can always stop, let the workpiece cool down and try again later.

Another suggestion is to heat the workpiece from the side and then introduce the solder at the junction between the tip and the workpiece. Most soldering tips are conical. I like working with "fine" "pencil" tips myself, for most things. When you press the tip against the workpiece its more that you are pressing the *side* of the tip-- near the actual tip-end itself-- against the workpiece. This permits a larger area for the transfer of heat. And it also makes a handy little depression you can use to slightly hold the tip of your solder strand and feed it into the molten joint.

A good solder joint will just "flow" and it will happen rapidly. If you find yourself "tacking on" more and more solder, you're not making a good joint, you're adding to a bad joint. Good joints have a bright and shiny appearance. Bad joints are dull and "blistery" in appearance (as we discussed above). When the heat of the iron is right, and its transferred the right amount of heat to the workpiece, the solder will just flow like water across the joint and you will be done almost immediately.

If your workpiece is large or connected to a lot of other metal, it will act as a heat-sink and require a lot more heat to get up to the right temperature. If it is within the capacity of your soldering iron, you can simply wait a few extra moments for it to come up to the right temperature. But if it doesn't happen soon, you are probably using an under-sized soldering iron relative to the piece you need to solder, so you should use a larger iron.

Also if your iron is capable of putting out a fair amount of heat (or your workpiece small and delicate) and the workpiece is attached to something that can be harmed by the heat-- like plastic railroad ties, for example-- you can use metal clips-- I personally use the kind you use for binding large printouts and such, the black things with the silver metal handles. You can get them pretty cheaply from the office-supply store and they are good for many of the things MR's tend to solder, like track.

 

7. Don't leave your soldering iron "ON" for too long a period. If you're not going to be using it for awhile, turn it off. Whenever the gun is turned on it degrades the tip-- no matter how much you clean it-- and in fact, cleaning it degrades it faster (you're rubbing it against something "rough"-- the sponge). So save your tip and cut your power when you're not using the iron.

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

john

[locoi1sa]

 http://www.handlaidtrack.com/videos.php

  This should help you.

         Pete

[OhioGuy]

 

I was just testing my soldering, now I have burned fingers :)

Should I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both? Also can you point me to a picture or two of a decent sauldering job on a rail so I can see what it supposed to look like. Currently I have too much of a clumpy mess.

 

Thanks!

[locoi1sa]

 If your rails are weathered then you will have to file a clean spot on the rail side or bottom. ME weathered rail is very hard to solder too unless it is buffed off to shiny nickle silver. With a little practice you will be able to solder the feeders to the inside or non visible side of the rail. I have soldered 18ga feeders to the inside of hand laid code 55 rail in HO that are down right impossible to find.

 Pete

[betamax]

dsabourne

Here is another question?

To date, I have only been able to find rosin core solder in Canadian stores, no flux paste.

Flux paste for plumbing is not the same thing?

Thanks,

David 

You're not looking in the right places!

Check the phone book for electronic supply stores. The places that sell things used to fix and build electronic devices. They'll have all that you need and then some. All those University students must be building things like Blackberries...

Whatever you do, do not use Acid Flux. That is for plumbing. Not for anything electrical.

You should be able to get Rosin flux in liquid or paste form, and they may even have dispensers for the liquid type too. A drop or two is all you need. Flux remover (usually in an aerosol can) is a good idea too.

[Hamltnblue]

 Also it's a good idea to practice on a spare section of track. I use a 30 watt iron with no problems and zero tie melting. 

[OhioGuy]

 

Thanks for all the replies. This is helping me a TON!!!

[jeffrey-wimberly]

dsabourne

To date, I have only been able to find rosin core solder in Canadian stores, no flux paste.

Flux paste for plumbing is not the same thing?

If you can find an electronics store they should have non-acid flux paste. I get mine from Radio Shack. You should be able to find it online. DO NOT USE FLUX PASTE MADE FOR PLUMBING! It contains acid and will do strange and not so wonderful things to your electrical connections.