All, My wife and I just ran our bus and we started to do some of the drops to the bus. We are going to solder the feeder wires to the track. We tried to do this and had a heck of a time doing it. Basically it was a mess/disaster.
Can someone point me to a good place to learn exactly how to solder a DCC set up? I do not even know what tining is! Any tips would be appreciated also.
Thanks as always guys!
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=solder+track+feeders&search_type=&aq=f
Try this lot from a Youtube search. Loads of good material for you to look at there!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Soldering the wires to the track is easy IF you do it properly. If you're rosin core solder it will likely ball up and fall off every time. I apply a small amount of paste flux (non-acid) to the rail and the wire end, put the wire in place, place the soldering tip to the area and apply the solder. The paste will insure that the solder goes where it needs to go and it won't ball up. Using a hot enough soldering tool is also key. Many swear by the low wattage (30-60 watts) irons but all those make me do is swear period. I use a Weller 140/100 watt soldering gun with no problem. The gun is only on when I have the trigger pulled back and I don't have to worry about melting a hole through something with an eternally hot iron.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Hi,
I'm in the process of doing the same thing. I'm 65, and have had layouts since the mid '50s, and can say without hesitation that soldering is a skill that - if not used regularly - needs to be "relearned" when you get back to doing it.
In soldering my 20awg feeders to the HO code 100 rails, I use a 40 watt iron. But in soldering those feeders to the 14awg bus wires, I use a hi watt soldering gun. Getting under the layout maze isn't easy, and wearing long sleeves & pants & safety glasses is a must - for solder will drop on you sooner or later.
There are alternatives to soldering, with various connectors on the market (i.e. Scotch "suitcase", etc.). Some folks swear by them, and I used them on the previous layout (which was DC) as it was - imho - more appropriate.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I have a 40 watt soldering station that I use. Not a super expensive Weller, this was actually quite modestly priced, and the best soldering device I have ever purchased. And I do a lot of soldering - I never had problems with electronic components using typical pencil irons, but a temperature controlled soldering station has one huge advantage - it doesn't keep heating continuously as long as it's plugged in like a plain soldering iron. This keeps the tip in good shape longer.
For soldering wires to track, I use some of the paste flux I got from this supplier: http://www.ccis.com/home/hn/. It's water based and completely safe for electronics and electrical work. M method may be a bit unconventional but my ties don't melt so I must be doing something right. I don't used weathered rail - if you do you need to polish it where you intend to solder wires as the sodler won;t adhere properly on the weathering. On my Atlas track I don't even clean it off - these are new sections, not old used track, but I haven't found any byproducts of the manufacturing process interfering with my soldering. I strip the feeder wire and bend it to shape, then dip the end in the paste flux (end up with just a TINY amount - too much is just as bad as not enough). I put a ball of solder on the tip of the iron, hold the wire to the rail, and press the iron on top. It flows instantly. Remove iron, let it freeze, and you're done.
A key to good soldering is a clean tip. My soldering station came with stand that included what looked like a scouring pad but is copper rather than steel. This works way better than the wet paper towl or wet sponge. In addition, the supplier of the flux also has a very nice tip tinner, just touch the hot iron tot he material and you get a nice shiny coat on the tip. The soldering iron tip should be bright and shiny, not dull and blackened.
You also need the right tool for the job. This 40 watt soldering station won't work to solder feeders to my #12 bus wire. For that I have a 150 watt soldering gun. I used to have 2 irons, a 15 watt for fine decoder wire and electronic parts and a 40 for track. The sodlering station is small enough for the decoders yet had enough heat to work for track. It also has a variety of interchangeable tips so you can use the right one for the job, from small fine points to wide spades. So far I've found the standard tip it comes with to be fine both for installign decoders and soldering the track feeders.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Basics of soldering is a topic that has been covered many times in these forums. This is a repeat:
Soldering wire to rail:
A side note on soldering tools. Most people need two - one heavy enough to solder rail (I build my own specialwork) and rail power drops at both ends, one small enough to make fine connections to inside-the-locomotive wiring. The latter should be an iron. Guns and electronic components are a serious mismatch - the electronics will lose every time.
Also, unless you have an industrial model, shy away from those 'cordless, cold-tip' soldering tools you see in commercials on late-night TV. They don't even make good paperweights.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with LOTS of soldered joints)
OK silly question. What is pre-tin? Steps for it?
Here is another question?
To date, I have only been able to find rosin core solder in Canadian stores, no flux paste.
Flux paste for plumbing is not the same thing?
Thanks,
David
In my mind the things that help in soldering are clean surfaces, fine solder, and a clean, tinned, tip. Heat the surfaces and touch the solder to them, you are not really using the iron to melt the solder. If you don't heat the surfaces first, you are asking for a cold joint. Low power with a clean tip and fine solder will do the trick. A little flux is good, non-acid liquid will work, though paste would be nice. Paste for plumbing is almost certainly acid, not the same thing!
The hardest part is that you need three hands, one for the wire, one for the solder, and one for the iron. So you end up holding the solder in the fingers of one of the other hands, whichever works.
When you've made a good joint, you'll see the solder run to cover the hot surface, in a bad joint, you'll get more of a blob.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Pre-tinning (or just tinning) is applying solder to one component of a joint before putting the joint together. In the case of wire used for drops:
The same techniques are valid for all kinds of soldering. I even tin the raw rail that I solder into hand-laid specialwork.
I just checked a couple of internet electronic suppliers. All list soldering paste/flux and 60-40 solder. It's a safe bet that paste flux sold for electronic work will be non-acid. Incidentally, paste flux is applied with a toothpick, not a shovel, so one container will last a LONG time.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
dsabourneTo date, I have only been able to find rosin core solder in Canadian stores, no flux paste. Flux paste for plumbing is not the same thing?
Also it's a good idea to practice on a spare section of track. I use a 30 watt iron with no problems and zero tie melting.
Springfield PA
dsabourneHere is another question? To date, I have only been able to find rosin core solder in Canadian stores, no flux paste. Flux paste for plumbing is not the same thing? Thanks, David
You're not looking in the right places!
Check the phone book for electronic supply stores. The places that sell things used to fix and build electronic devices. They'll have all that you need and then some. All those University students must be building things like Blackberries...
Whatever you do, do not use Acid Flux. That is for plumbing. Not for anything electrical.
You should be able to get Rosin flux in liquid or paste form, and they may even have dispensers for the liquid type too. A drop or two is all you need. Flux remover (usually in an aerosol can) is a good idea too.
If your rails are weathered then you will have to file a clean spot on the rail side or bottom. ME weathered rail is very hard to solder too unless it is buffed off to shiny nickle silver. With a little practice you will be able to solder the feeders to the inside or non visible side of the rail. I have soldered 18ga feeders to the inside of hand laid code 55 rail in HO that are down right impossible to find.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I was just testing my soldering, now I have burned fingers :)
Should I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both? Also can you point me to a picture or two of a decent sauldering job on a rail so I can see what it supposed to look like. Currently I have too much of a clumpy mess.
Thanks!
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/videos.php
This should help you.
OhioGuyAll, My wife and I just ran our bus and we started to do some of the drops to the bus. We are going to solder the feeder wires to the track. We tried to do this and had a heck of a time doing it. Basically it was a mess/disaster. Can someone point me to a good place to learn exactly how to solder a DCC set up? I do not even know what tining is! Any tips would be appreciated also. Thanks as always guys!
Here are a few tips about soldering in-general-- not a replacement for a real tutorial-- just some add-on advice...
1. *ALWAYS* use a soldering iron with a *CLEAN* tip. I keep a soda bottle around with distilled water in it and a soft sponge for that purpose. It isn't strictly necessary that the water be distilled but it ensures it has a minimum amount of impurities floating around in it. Drip a little water onto the sponge, enough to make it damp but not dripping (what I normally do is flood the sponge over the sink and then squeeze it real hard to make it just "damp", this also has the side effect of cleaning the sponge somewhat).
The best way to clean the tip is to wait for it to come up to full heat, and then quickly scrape it along the sponge, turning it (around the handle) as you go. You want to hear nice satisfying "ssssphh" sounds like an clothes iron on the steam setting, but you don't want to linger too long and dry out the sponge or burn it. After you've done that once or twice around, then get out a line of solder and just run it straight into the tip until a big ball forms around the tip. If the tip is clean, the ball will be completely uniform around the tip and you're good to go. If its not, it will "divide" ("avoid") the area that's dirty. That's how you know where to keep cleaning. When you've done that all around and the solder blob forms uniformly around the tip, you know you're ready to go.
Always clean the tip when you pick up the soldering iron. If you've been using it and you just set it down briefly, all you probably need to do is wipe the tip. But if its been sitting for a few minutes or more, you should try a solder ball on the tip to make sure its still clean-- and clean it via the above procedure if not.
A dirty soldering iron will *not* solder well and does not conduct heat very well. This will result in "cold" (malformed) solder joints that have a dull, "pebbly" look to them-- or sometimes you'll see a little bubble form and pop (i.e., a "pit" or a "crater" in your joint). Those are classic indicators of a bad solder joint. If that occurs you need to redo the joint-- often just touching it with a *CLEAN* soldering tip will reflow the solder and clean up the joint. But you may have to add a little more solder. Or if using flux, a little more of that.
2. Always make sure your working surfaces (the stuff you're soldering to) are *CLEAN*. Use a scotchbright pad (plastic scrubbing pad like for washing dishes) or something similar-- you could use steel wool if you have to though I don't recommend it because it breaks up into little pieces that are magnetic and could get up into your motors and burn them out-- be safe, use a scotchbright or something similar. Clean *BOTH* surfaces, if its wire, clean the wire-- in fact, if you have enough length on the wire and its an "old" end, clip off the end, strip back some of the insulation and use the newly-revealed wire end.
3. Make sure everything is clean, in case I forgot to mention it.
4. Tin your workpieces. This is quick and easy and it makes for good joints. Heat the workpiece for a moment to get it up to temperature and the touch it with the solder-- it should quickly flow out across the surface. You don't want a big blob, just enough to cover it lightly is all it takes. Then when you are ready to solder them together, touch them mechanically (or give them a twist if its wires) and then heat it up again with the soldering iron. You may need to add a little extra solder to get a nice joint. You want just enough solder to cover the surfaces in a slightly-thick (not overly thick) but still nice and neat coating. You don't want a blob. Blobs are *not* good soldering practice.
5. You might want to use "Flux". Flux comes in either a liquid or a paste. Either will work for most purposes. You can also buy solder that already has flux built-in to the center of the strand. *DO NOT USE "ACID CORE" FLUX* !!! Don't do it. No Acid-Core Flux. NONONONONO!NOnonono! Rosin-Core GOOD Acid-Core BAD.
Flux coats the surface of the workpiece and helps the molten solder flow more easily across it-- sort of like a "wetting agent" for liquid metal (solder). Again you need to make sure your surfaces are clean and well-prepared before you use it.
6. A couple of tips about soldering itself-- you'll want to learn the basics of soldering someplace-- these are for afterwards-- It is often easier and better to place the tip *opposite* the side you want to flow your solder on. For example, if you want to solder on one side of a piece of wire, place the tip on the back side and wait for it to heat through. Obviously if you're soldering something that's connected to something heat-sensitive, you'll want to use your own judgment about that. Don't linger too long with the iron. If its not working right you can always stop, let the workpiece cool down and try again later.
Another suggestion is to heat the workpiece from the side and then introduce the solder at the junction between the tip and the workpiece. Most soldering tips are conical. I like working with "fine" "pencil" tips myself, for most things. When you press the tip against the workpiece its more that you are pressing the *side* of the tip-- near the actual tip-end itself-- against the workpiece. This permits a larger area for the transfer of heat. And it also makes a handy little depression you can use to slightly hold the tip of your solder strand and feed it into the molten joint.
A good solder joint will just "flow" and it will happen rapidly. If you find yourself "tacking on" more and more solder, you're not making a good joint, you're adding to a bad joint. Good joints have a bright and shiny appearance. Bad joints are dull and "blistery" in appearance (as we discussed above). When the heat of the iron is right, and its transferred the right amount of heat to the workpiece, the solder will just flow like water across the joint and you will be done almost immediately.
If your workpiece is large or connected to a lot of other metal, it will act as a heat-sink and require a lot more heat to get up to the right temperature. If it is within the capacity of your soldering iron, you can simply wait a few extra moments for it to come up to the right temperature. But if it doesn't happen soon, you are probably using an under-sized soldering iron relative to the piece you need to solder, so you should use a larger iron.
Also if your iron is capable of putting out a fair amount of heat (or your workpiece small and delicate) and the workpiece is attached to something that can be harmed by the heat-- like plastic railroad ties, for example-- you can use metal clips-- I personally use the kind you use for binding large printouts and such, the black things with the silver metal handles. You can get them pretty cheaply from the office-supply store and they are good for many of the things MR's tend to solder, like track.
7. Don't leave your soldering iron "ON" for too long a period. If you're not going to be using it for awhile, turn it off. Whenever the gun is turned on it degrades the tip-- no matter how much you clean it-- and in fact, cleaning it degrades it faster (you're rubbing it against something "rough"-- the sponge). So save your tip and cut your power when you're not using the iron.
Hope this helps!
john
jeffrey-wimberly If you're rosin core solder it will likely ball up and fall off every time.
The real key is making sure the workpiece is up to the right temperature first-- but of course when you're doing track you need to be quick if you're using plastic ties, or else use some clip-on heatsinks.
There's nothing wrong with using flux-paste of course, I'm just pointing out that the real problem is that the solder "balls up and falls off" because the surface is not hot enough yet to hold the solder even though its at the point where it can just melt it (i.e. make it bead up). If you just wait an extra moment to solder it won't bead up whichever kind of flux you use, or even flux-core solder. I use the stuff all the time and have for years and don't have that problem unless I get impatient.
John
OhioGuyShould I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both?
jeffrey-wimberly OhioGuyShould I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both? You cannot do both in most cases. While it sometimes works in tight areas soldering to the inside of the rail is ill-advised. I solder the wire to the outside of the rail and usually to the rail joiner. It's hard to see in the photo but the wire is soldered to the joiner.
Jeffrey is incorrect. You can do both/either. If done properly, soldering the wire to the inside of the rail will not cause problems. You can do it to hide the feeder wires from viewing. The picture posted is a poor example of how to solder and of proper trackwork. Do not use it as a reference as "how to"; there appears to be a number of issues with what is pictured.
I hate to ask it, but what's wrong with the pic above?
OhioGuy I hate to ask it, but what's wrong with the pic above?
Where to begin? First off, for a pic that is supposed to be an example of how to solder feeder wires to the rail, you can not see the feeder wire or the solder joint. Second, it doesn't even appear that the rail joint has been soldered. If you look at the right hand section of rail it lloks like the rail joiner is not even properly placed. It looks like has been either been split and goes above and below the base of the rail or is not properly placed. Second, the RH rail has been painted, but it shows no evidence of the paint having been removed to prepare the rail for the rail joiner and soldering. the rail joiner doesn't appear to be painted so the painting of the rail must have been done before the rail joiner was installed. Also, even looking at the left hand rail there is no evidence of a feeder wire soldered to the rail joiner or of the rail joiner being soldered to the rail. I would classify soldering the rail joiner with a feeder wire soldered to the rail as a "recommended practice" since you on relying on it to transfer power from the rail joiner to the rail.
There are other issues that are more difficult to describe and other issues with the track work in general that I'll pass on right now.
I always made it a habbit to solder outside of the rail due avoid any possible interference with wheel flanges.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Silver PilotOhioGuy I hate to ask it, but what's wrong with the pic above? Where to begin? First off, for a pic that is supposed to be an example of how to solder feeder wires to the rail, you can not see the feeder wire or the solder joint. Second, it doesn't even appear that the rail joint has been soldered. If you look at the right hand section of rail it lloks like the rail joiner is not even properly placed. It looks like has been either been split and goes above and below the base of the rail or is not properly placed. Second, the RH rail has been painted, but it shows no evidence of the paint having been removed to prepare the rail for the rail joiner and soldering. the rail joiner doesn't appear to be painted so the painting of the rail must have been done before the rail joiner was installed. Also, even looking at the left hand rail there is no evidence of a feeder wire soldered to the rail joiner or of the rail joiner being soldered to the rail. I would classify soldering the rail joiner with a feeder wire soldered to the rail as a "recommended practice" since you on relying on it to transfer power from the rail joiner to the rail. There are other issues that are more difficult to describe and other issues with the track work in general that I'll pass on right now.
But aside from that its okay, right???
Silver PilotOhioGuyShould I saulder to the inside or outside of the rail? I am hearing I can do both? ...You can do both/either. If done properly, soldering the wire to the inside of the rail will not cause problems. You can do it to hide the feeder wires from viewing. The picture posted is a poor example of how to solder and of proper trackwork. Do not use it as a reference as "how to"; there appears to be a number of issues with what is pictured.
...You can do both/either. If done properly, soldering the wire to the inside of the rail will not cause problems. You can do it to hide the feeder wires from viewing. The picture posted is a poor example of how to solder and of proper trackwork. Do not use it as a reference as "how to"; there appears to be a number of issues with what is pictured.
Actually, there's also a third option: Soldering to the underside of the railing.
Upside:
Downside:
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
It looks like this will go on for a while so here are a couple links from a Google search for,
soldering wire to ho track
http://tinyurl.com/yftteu7
Below are You Tube Videos.
http://tinyurl.com/yg8ay2n
Store the links in your Favorites Folder. You can also download the videos to your PC for future use.
Never forget, the Internet is loaded with usefull info.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Tom,
You are correct, that is the third option. Since the OP talked about dropping feeders to track that was already in place, I didn't mention it. It takes a good deal of planning an forethought to do properly. With flextrack or sectional track it is even more difficult to do without melting ties. You'd typically see it done with handlaid track since the wire could be soldered to the base of the rail at the workbench and no ties to worry about melting.
jwhitten But aside from that its okay, right??? John
Yeah, aside from the previously mention items and the weird blue stuff on the top of the RH rail (can't be good for electrical pickup), the gap between the rails at the joint, the ballast in the gap, the odd amount of wear on the RH rail where the railhead has been rounded over, the loose fitting rail joiner and what looks like ballasting glue that has seeped in between the LH rail and the rail joiner making for a questionable electrical connection - yeah, it's okay.
the only electronics shop that I know of in the Kitchener Guelph area is in Guelph. It is in Guelph and it is called;
Neutron Electronics Ltd, you can find it in the phone book.
Hope it helps
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."