Trip speed is the key, on Digitrax system, the booster trip speed is configurable to work with downstream protection devices. Assuming a dead short, like a reverse loop, you could have an autoreverse device set to 5 amps running off a booster that only supplies 2 amps and have the reverser trip first - if it is set to a faster trip speed. In the case of a not so solid short, like a derailment that leaves a metal wheel across the track with little weight on it, the trip current might take precedence and the booster would trip before the circuit breaker. Both things need to be taken into account for reliable operation of circuit breakers and autoreversers, but it is possible for a breaker that is set for more current than the booster can deliver to still function.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I think you will find that there are several reversers that work with the Power Cab out of the box basic system, but none that work with the Smart booster add on that is needed if you want to add more than one extra cab and or USB PC interface.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
LOL.
Anyhow I googled the auto reverser issue and found it several places. The 3 amp power booster has an issue with them as well. Looks like the surge protection trips too quickly. I can say that the 3 amp booster I had in the past was very sensitive and tripped too soon. I wound up with the 5 amp system.
Here's a link where someone appears to have had luck with this manufacturers reverser and the Power Cab.
http://www.dccspecialties.com/products/powershield_x.htm
Springfield PA
Hamltnblue Basically you can pick apart any system and build a case for or against it. I for one agree that the Zephyr is a good product but when I was looking for a starter set I didn't want something looking like an old Radio Shack starter electronics kit on the layout.
Basically you can pick apart any system and build a case for or against it. I for one agree that the Zephyr is a good product but when I was looking for a starter set I didn't want something looking like an old Radio Shack starter electronics kit on the layout.
I don't think that we're doing much picking apart on this thread but really trying to give as complete a picture as we can to help the original poster make a choice. By the way, whatever happened to Taylor? I wonder if any of this has been of help to him. It would be nice to get some feedback from him.
P.S. I'll take function over appearance any day of the week and..... I think my Zephyr looks pretty cool and high-tech so I'm careful to keep it out where everyone can see it.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
I wonder why a system wouldn't handle an auto reversal unit. Maybe if they tried another manufacturers auto reverser it would work. Is it the max current draw that was the issue?
Picking apart is one thing, but if a potential purchaser has, or plans for a reverse loop (a turntable for example) not an uncommon thing, and the system they purchase can not handle automatic reversal then I think that is quite an important shortcoming to understand. On another forum I belong to there is a really angry PowerCab user who has been told by NCE that the only solution they can offer is to upgrade to a Power House system. I did not believe that what he was told could possibly be true, but it would appear that it is?
This thread has revealed what seems to be a real oversight in the PowerCab. This notion that the USB interface means that a 2nd throttle can not be added unless a Smart Booster is deployed really adds to the cost of a system when more than one operator is wanted.
In trying to check out the validity of this, I was trolling around on the www.litchfieldstation.com site and read the following
"Will NOT work with any known auto reverse module - the SB3 shuts down before the module reverses"
is this really true? There must be some really ticked off PowerCab users if this is the case?
So if you want a dual user system, with a PC interface so that you can run the JMRI program, then at discount web prices a Power Cab system is going to run you $378.00 a Zephyr will run you $303.00 (command station, PC interface, utility throttle, extra panel and Smartbooster for the NCE)
If you only want a single cab/user and the PC interface the NCE PowerCab is $187.00 compared to $223.00 for the Digitrax Z. Quite a big difference to add a single cab?
CSX Robertjwils1 In comparing Digitrax, NCE and MRC there is another consideration that might be important to some. If you want to throw turnouts with your DCC system I've found that Digitrax can do this with fewer button presses and in a smoother, more efficient manner. This was just another little bonus I got with my Digtrax choice. To be fair, if you like to use utility throttles, you can not throw turnouts from Digtrax's utility throttles(you can from their DT series throttles and from the Zephyr), but you can from NCE's utility throttles.
jwils1 In comparing Digitrax, NCE and MRC there is another consideration that might be important to some. If you want to throw turnouts with your DCC system I've found that Digitrax can do this with fewer button presses and in a smoother, more efficient manner. This was just another little bonus I got with my Digtrax choice.
In comparing Digitrax, NCE and MRC there is another consideration that might be important to some. If you want to throw turnouts with your DCC system I've found that Digitrax can do this with fewer button presses and in a smoother, more efficient manner. This was just another little bonus I got with my Digtrax choice.
It's my understanding that you cannot throw turnouts from the NCE utility throttles, like a 04p. You can do it by using macros on the 04p but that doesn't work very well, and of course there is no display to let you see what you're doing. I think you have to set a macro to throw a turnout, and then another macro to close it. Lots of button pressing and numbers to remember. I could be wrong on this but I asked the question on another forum and this is what I was told.
And yes, you cannot do it with a Digitrax UT4 either, but for me, using the throttle to throw lots of turnouts, the DT series and Zephyr control panel work nicely.
jwils1In comparing Digitrax, NCE and MRC there is another consideration that might be important to some. If you want to throw turnouts with your DCC system I've found that Digitrax can do this with fewer button presses and in a smoother, more efficient manner. This was just another little bonus I got with my Digtrax choice.
spidgeIf you can afford signalling and such you would skip the starter systems anyway.
fwrightI'm not so sure that the statement regarding using the PC interface with the Super Booster or Power Cab cuts the number of cabs by one is correct. There are reserved cab addresses for specific uses, and I believe the 2 or 4 cab limit is still valid after adding the PC interface. But I'm willing to be proven wrong by an actual user.
simon1966 Had I had a choice at the time, the Power Cab would have received very strong consideration as I like the form factor of the throttle.
This is not the first time I've heard this and I had the same thoughts at one time. I thought a Power Cab/Smart Booster combo would serve my needs for power and number of throttles for a long time, with only an upgrade to radio needed in the future. But the form factor was the killer for me. I was so disappointed once I started using it. NCE is such a fine company, with outstanding product quality, great radio performance, and absolutely wonderful customer service. It was hard for me to give up on NCE but I decided to take a chance on the Zephyr.
I've always admired the Ditgrax philosophy and design, and wasn't disappointed. I started with a Zephyr and DT400, which I think is a perfect combo for many users. I guess I got lucky because the DT400 is, in many respects, just perfect for me. I later added radio, which performed flawlessly, and now I too expect to receive my DT402D/UR92 tomorrow. It took me a while, and had to spend a little money, but I've found the very best system for me, and the form factor was the clincher.
I did some checks on my power cab.
With 10 sound decoders sitting on the track they draw .47 amps
With 6 sitting they draw .23 amps.
With 6 on the track, with 4 of them pulling, and sound on they draw about .97 amps. One of my grades is 3.3%
My locos are less than 2 years old so they are of newer design. I like the P. Cab because I find it simple to understand and I can read the CVs easly. I did start out with A Digatrax and changed, No offense to anyone just my .
I don't have enough track to have all 10 locos running at once so I run 4 or 5 off on a siding and cut the power to them.
Have fun.
Lee
I looked at the flat cable that came with my power cab. It has 24awg written on it. Answers that.
simon1966 So I would concur. If you don't have any real plans to upgrade the system in the future, and the Power Cab meets your needs, it is a great system. If you think you might follow a path like me then you can't go wrong with the Zephyr.
So I would concur. If you don't have any real plans to upgrade the system in the future, and the Power Cab meets your needs, it is a great system. If you think you might follow a path like me then you can't go wrong with the Zephyr.
I think this kind of sums it up or close to it for me. I kept my layout size restricted on purpose and can only keep 4 people busy for a couple hours. Now when I was looking to get started the main issue for me was the human interface and the Powercab looked more user friendly as I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. Shoot the SB3 nor the interface were out yet, but were in planning. My intention with this system is use on this layout and maybe take the throttle to someone elses from time to time. Now when I build my dream empire I will revisit all this and decide from there.
I do like the Digitrax loconet system where you can tie in signaling and all that goes with it. There are many pros and cons for each system and two big atvantages I think about is the recall stack of 10 and the jump cabs utilizing DC cabs in the Zephyr.
To each his own and choose what best fits you now and in the next couple years. I would not put to much wieght on features that you may not utilize for 10 years down the road. The idea behind these starter system is just that, get started. If you can afford signalling and such you would skip the starter systems anyway.
John
Fred, excellent summary.
I am a Digitrax Z user, but really like NCE products as well. When I purchased my Z there was not a choice. The PowerCab was not released yet and MRC had not yet moved onto their current line of DCC systems. Had I had a choice at the time, the Power Cab would have received very strong consideration as I like the form factor of the throttle.
Having said that, looking at where I am now, I would have hit the extent of the upgrade path on the PowerCab. The throttle limit is what would have nailed me. From day 1, there have been 3 of us using the layout simultaneously. We used the Z throttle and the 2 jump throttles. We quickly added a DT400 dual throttle bringing us up to an effective 5 throttles. Have since added a UT4 and a PC with virtual throttles. It is not unusual for me and the 2 boys to have 5 throttles in use all the time. We have also added a DB150 booster and are about to add at new DT402D and UR92 duplex wireless (in transit as we speak). All of which has and will be added with my trusty Z as the command station at the center of it all. Nothing redundant. This would not have been possible with the PowerCab, other than going right to a ProCab and avoiding the Smart Booster.
CSX Robert jwils1I've always felt that the Power Cab is a good choice If you will never need more than 1.7 amps, and if you will never need more than two throttles, or one throttle and a computer interface, and if you like the feel and operation of their throttles. While I don't exactly agree with this, one thing I do not like about the Power Cab is it's upgrade path. Of course the Power Cab can be used as a Pro Cab on a Power Pro system, and I like that feature. You can also upgrade it with the Smart Booster, but if you think you will ever want more than the 4 cab limit of the Smart Boooster, then you are better off going straight to the Power Pro system because if you go to the Smart Booster and then Power Pro, the Smart Booster will no longer be useable in the system - not even as just a booster. It is also important to remember that the PC interface and any other cab bus accessories, such as the micro panel, use cab addresses and cut into the number of cabs you can use.
jwils1I've always felt that the Power Cab is a good choice If you will never need more than 1.7 amps, and if you will never need more than two throttles, or one throttle and a computer interface, and if you like the feel and operation of their throttles.
While I don't exactly agree with this, one thing I do not like about the Power Cab is it's upgrade path. Of course the Power Cab can be used as a Pro Cab on a Power Pro system, and I like that feature. You can also upgrade it with the Smart Booster, but if you think you will ever want more than the 4 cab limit of the Smart Boooster, then you are better off going straight to the Power Pro system because if you go to the Smart Booster and then Power Pro, the Smart Booster will no longer be useable in the system - not even as just a booster. It is also important to remember that the PC interface and any other cab bus accessories, such as the micro panel, use cab addresses and cut into the number of cabs you can use.
I'm not so sure that the statement regarding using the PC interface with the Super Booster or Power Cab cuts the number of cabs by one is correct. There are reserved cab addresses for specific uses, and I believe the 2 or 4 cab limit is still valid after adding the PC interface. But I'm willing to be proven wrong by an actual user.
Be that as it may, knowing the desired end state - particularly number of throttles - is as important in DCC planning as it is in DC. Otherwise, one ends up with dead end upgrade paths and wasted money. Not that all throttles have to be bought immediately - but provision does have to be made for the eventual total number. Even if some of the throttles will come from friends bringing their own, the total has to be planned for.
If remaining at a single or 2 operator level (2 throttles), to me the preferred form factor should be one of the drivers in the choice between NCE and Digitraxx and MRC. If you want all walk-around throttles, MRC and NCE are cheaper starting points. If you prefer a central panel operation, then the Zephyr makes more sense.
One more point - if operating more than 2 walk-around tethered throttles simultaneously, you are going to run into tangled tethers on most layouts (DC or DCC). Wireless is the obvious solution to the problem, but brings another level of costs and upgrade planning.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Hamltnblue...I do think that the flat cable provided with the cab just might be heavier than 26 gauge though...
I am a big fan of Digitrax's system design and feel that if you desire to get into any signalling, detection, and/or automated or PC controlled operations and want it all integrated, Digitrax is the way to go. That being said, I do feel that NCE's systems are good systems and better suited for many people.
I have a Zephyr on my small layout at home. It has so far worked for everything I want to do, and it lets me run a mix of decoder equipped and non decoder equipped locomotives. Though the Zephyr is a bit limited past the scope of smallish layouts, it is a great starting point and will become a solid core to a larger DCC system. Just my opinion.
Cahrn
Judging on the good job the NCE engineers did on the overall design of the power cab, I'd bet that they figured the drop in. Before upgrading I ran mine loaded up and had no issues. I do think that the flat cable provided with the cab just might be heavier than 26 gauge though. Cat 5 cable for instance is 24 gauge.
spidge If you are running N-scale then 1.7 amps is actually enough to run many trains. I have had 7 locos running with my Powercab alone and after about an hour it showed no issues.
If you are running N-scale then 1.7 amps is actually enough to run many trains. I have had 7 locos running with my Powercab alone and after about an hour it showed no issues.
I've always felt that the Power Cab is a good choice If you will never need more than 1.7 amps, and if you will never need more than two throttles, or one throttle and a computer interface, and if you like the feel and operation of their throttles.
If any of these ifs don't work for you then the Zephyr may be the better choice, unless of course one doesn't like the Digitrax throttles either. But the Zephyr does have the better upgrade path and I'm guessing that it would be the next choice for most.
The throttle is the interface between user and system and ones ultimate enjoyment of their system is going to weigh heavily on how the throttle feels and what it can or can't do.
It's too bad potential buyers don't have the chance to try out each throttle but I doubt if many hobby shops offer this opportunity. Even the great Caboose Hobbies only has a display with NCE, Digitrax and Lenz throttles hooked up to a track and then it's only their primary throttles and no track loop or turnouts to really try everything, and I've never seen them display any of the auxilliary throttles, and have no MRC throttles.
So Taylor, ask as many questions as you can here, at hobby shops, train shows and clubs to get as much feedback as you can about systems and their throttles, and especially throttles as how they feel in your hand and how they do things can make a big difference. The more you know the better your chance of making a good choice.
Stevertspidge tstage Steve, I believe John was saying that he used a 10' 6-wire cable instead of the 7' cable that comes with the Power Cab; not that he added them together. Tom Thanks Tom, that is correct. Also, as I said before using this 10' 6 wire coil cord I have ran 7 locos. I have thought about voltage drop and determined that I would rarely need to run that many locos so its no issue. Anyway I moved on to the SB3 and never use the six wire cord for track power anyway. Okay, going back to the site I linked to before, and plugging in "only" 20 feet of 26 AWG at 12VDC and .75 amps (two sound locos), you still get a 10.49% voltage drop, or about 1.25 to 1.5 volts depending on the specific track voltage. Put another way, with a .75 amp load, that 10-foot cable itself would need dissipate roughly a full watt of heat just from the voltage drop. You might not think it's an issue, but it's certainly not a situation I'd knowingly introduce on my layout. Steve
spidge tstage Steve, I believe John was saying that he used a 10' 6-wire cable instead of the 7' cable that comes with the Power Cab; not that he added them together. Tom Thanks Tom, that is correct. Also, as I said before using this 10' 6 wire coil cord I have ran 7 locos. I have thought about voltage drop and determined that I would rarely need to run that many locos so its no issue. Anyway I moved on to the SB3 and never use the six wire cord for track power anyway.
tstage Steve, I believe John was saying that he used a 10' 6-wire cable instead of the 7' cable that comes with the Power Cab; not that he added them together. Tom
Steve,
I believe John was saying that he used a 10' 6-wire cable instead of the 7' cable that comes with the Power Cab; not that he added them together.
Tom
Thanks Tom, that is correct. Also, as I said before using this 10' 6 wire coil cord I have ran 7 locos. I have thought about voltage drop and determined that I would rarely need to run that many locos so its no issue. Anyway I moved on to the SB3 and never use the six wire cord for track power anyway.
Okay, going back to the site I linked to before, and plugging in "only" 20 feet of 26 AWG at 12VDC and .75 amps (two sound locos), you still get a 10.49% voltage drop, or about 1.25 to 1.5 volts depending on the specific track voltage.
Put another way, with a .75 amp load, that 10-foot cable itself would need dissipate roughly a full watt of heat just from the voltage drop. You might not think it's an issue, but it's certainly not a situation I'd knowingly introduce on my layout.
Steve
I see John mentioned that he wasn't using the Power Cab as the command station, he is using an SB3.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
jwils1spidge Hey Taylor, It is true that the Powercab does have to stay plugged in as it is the command station but I simply ordered a 10 foot six wire coil cord from http://www.litchfieldstation.com/DCC-University/index.htm and was able to move to any viewing spot on my 15X17 N scale layout. That's an important point. <snip>
spidge Hey Taylor, It is true that the Powercab does have to stay plugged in as it is the command station but I simply ordered a 10 foot six wire coil cord from http://www.litchfieldstation.com/DCC-University/index.htm and was able to move to any viewing spot on my 15X17 N scale layout.
Hey Taylor,
It is true that the Powercab does have to stay plugged in as it is the command station but I simply ordered a 10 foot six wire coil cord from http://www.litchfieldstation.com/DCC-University/index.htm and was able to move to any viewing spot on my 15X17 N scale layout.
That's an important point.
<snip>
You're right, it is an important point!
Keep in mind that with the Power Cab, that hand-held throttle is also the command station. That means that all the current being used by the layout goes through that coiled cord twice - Once from the power supply to the throttle, and then from the throttle to the track.
Since a coiled cord of that type typically has rather small gauge wire, typically 26 AWG, in order to remain flexible, you have to consider voltage drop. After all, you wouldn't use 26 AWG for your track bus under the layout, would you? Well, with a Power Cab, what's feeding both the command station and the track bus bus? Yup, that coiled cord consisting of 26 AWG conductors.
I believe the Power Cab has a 7-foot cord, and you added a 10-foot extension for a total of 17 feet each way. According to the calculator at this Web site, 34 feet of 26 AWG (remember, the current traverses this cable twice) at 12 VDC or single-phase AC (closest to a DCC waveform that is has listed) and 1.7 amps gives you a voltage drop of 4.852 volts, or about 40%!
Of course, that's a worse case scenario because you probably don't always use the full 1.7 amps that the Power Cab is capable of delivering. But even at .75 amp (two sound locos?) the drop is still over 2 volts, or about 19%.
I know I sure wouldn't use 17 feet of 26 AWG between my power supply and my Command Station, or between my CS and my track bus. But that's what you're doing when you you add that 10-foot extension to your Power Cab.
Will the Power Cab's built-in short circuit protection even still work with that kind of resistance (and the resulting voltage drop) in the circuit? Food for thought...
That's an important point. A coiled cord is so much easier to deal with as you walk around your layout. The Prodigy Advance Squared also comes with a flat cord, although I understand that coiled cords can be purchased for it. Digitrax throttles come with coiled cords.