Using Cat 6 Ethernet cable for feeder drops?

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

And I thought I was pretty brave designing a layout with two liftouts. 

One has 5 tracks on three different levels, the other has 4 tracks on two different levels.

 

But the there are no turnouts, only one small curved section.

I have considered several approaches, swing gates, true lift outs, etc.

For the busiest one, I am pretty settled on building an "elevator", putting the lift out section on tracks allowing it to raise straight up an lock open, with some sort of manual crank system or a motor.

The other will most likely remain a simple manual lift out.

As someone with considerable experiance hanging doors, mostly the old fashioned way in 120 year old houses, the geometry issues of anything that swings has steered me away from those options - despite any success others have had.

I consider being "inside" the layout an absolute necessity for the type of track plan and operation I want. So short of a basement or second floor train room where the steps enter in the middle of the room, I will live with a lift out/duck under system. 

And I will likely duck under them more than lift them for as long as my health allows. Because once I'm in, all the action is accessable.

Sheldon

   

[The Milwaukee Road Warrior]

richhotrain

Andy, I have been studying your photos and diagrams. Here are some thoughts and comments.

1. I count six tracks traversing that drop down section. That could prove to be the Achilles heel of your layout. Regarding duckunders, I had one crossing an aisle on my last layout. It was actually designed to be a lift out section, but I often used it as a duckunder because I was always needing to reach one end or the other of the layout.

On my current layout, I designed it to eliminate duckunders and lift outs and drop downs. Unforunately, I have one remote area that requires a pop up hole, and that is not fun because I occasionally need access to fix derailments. Of course, it is the place on my layout where derailments occur.

You might be better off to start out with a duckunder if your body will permit it. I presume that most of your operations take place inside the layout? So, once inside, you can remain there for a reasonable period of time.

2. My only comment on the breaker box is to hope for your sake that you rarely need access. My layout is a basemen layout, but I vowed to build it far away from the breaker box as well as the utilities such as the furnace and water heater.

3. I see that your bus wire is black and red. That is excellent for identification purposes. Regarding a booster, I only suggested that if you want to run a lot of locomotives or create power districts with circuit breakers since the Power Cab is only 2 amps. A 5 amp booster would useful with lots of locos and/or circuit breaker controlled power districts. Your Power Cab could then become your walk around throttle.

If you added a booster, you could place it mid-way on your layout and split the bus wires to run left and right. In fact, using Y-butt splices each side, left and right, could be further divided into two parallel buses, one against the wall and one against the open area of the layout, permitting shorter feeders.

Rich

 

Originally, the entire layout area you see was supposed to be the play area for my boys (who were smaller then) and the layout was going to be on the other end of my basement.  Knowing how boys play, I didn't want them smashing into my water line/water meter and breaking something so I built the small room to enclose the meter and breaker box.  I'd guess that room is 8' x 2'.  (My furnace water heater are in an opposite corner and not an issue).  I also replaced the basement window with new security glass, something I'd been wanting to do anyway.  I was expecting errant pool balls, kick balls, footballs etc..

I was well into the design phase for the space on the *other* end of the basement (more of a square area) when my wife said, "You know, I think I'd rather have the play area over here," (motioning to the "train" area).

Soooo, I had to do a switcheroo.  In the blink of an eye I had a door and a window to design around, as well as a narrower space that took my Merrill Park Yard and compressed it, making it really hard to fit anything other than a pinwheel yard in there.  I poured over my books (like Sperandeo and Armstrong et al) trying to come up with some other arrangement.  I made do with what I had.  Thankfully I had not started any benchwork yet.

The long and short is that the change in spaces pushed even the pinwheel yard out into what I knew was going to be a lift out or drop down section.  Then I had to design a way to access the small utility room.  That section pulls out manually, then I can raise a hinged section of backdrop up and suspend it from the ceiling and open the door.  It's not as bad as it sounds.  I've since cut a small access hole in the wall under the benchwork that I can reach thru and shut off the water service if I need to without opening the door.

History aside, it sounds like I may want to consider an NCE 5amp booster as well as breaking the space up into 2 or 3 power districts.  And before I start wiring I should include a circuit breaker on each district.  

In answer to some above comments, I already have many of the tools needed for the work: I have everything I need for soldering for example, including the iron that Randy Rinker suggested years ago ...just have not practised with them yet.  I have a variety of electrical tools for work I've done around the house.  I would need to get the circuit breakers from NCE.  Or the lightbulbs.  And figure out where to put them.  I've had direction both for and against terminal strips here so I would need to figure that out as well.  Knowing that I can run main buss like tree branches is a big relief.  I don't have to try to figure out how to run power *thru* drop down/pull out sections (I think).

Lots to consider here.  I appreciate the comments.  Keep them coming please.

[richhotrain]

I was not about to recommend moving the layout since you are too far along with it, but it is interesting to read that your initial consideration was to use the other end of the basement. Live and learn.

Going back to the drop down section where you enter the layout, if you can manage to crawl underneath it, my advice would be to design it as a duckunder. That approach would tremendously facilitate the wiring and eliminate the possibility of derailments due to misalignment of tracks.

If your budget will permit it, I would definitely recommend a 5 amp booster and the addition of one or more power districts, each powered by a circuit breaker. While I am a big fan/user of NCE equipment, my circuit breakers are all PSX units. From what I read from other users, NCE circuit breakers are just fine, but I am totally satisfied with the PSX circuit breakers. Your choice. My advice is to forget about light bulbs. Circuit breakers are much more sophisticated, easy to use, and totally adjustable to be compatible with your booster capacity.

Routing the bus wires requires a lot of thought and planning at the outset. A couple of considerations are paramount. One, you do not want an oval. You need to break up the bus routing into a branch formation. Two, you want to place limits on every individual length, 50 feet maximum, 25 feet ideally. Three, try to design the buses to run under the mainlines and yards.

Since you alredy have a soldering station, you are only a step away from mastering the art. Use some small sections of your bus wires and practice soldering feeders to them. Someone on this thread suggested a tool that separates the plastic insulation on 14 gauge bus wires to create a space where feeders can be wrapped around the exposed copper bus wire and soldered. Practice that on the work bench before laying on your back under the layout. 

I have tried every method imaginable to solder wires to track and rail joiners. Over the course of five layouts, my current method is to use 20 gauge solid wire. I solder the end of the feeder to the outside of the rail on every section of track. My method is to bend the end of the feeder 90 degrees to form an upside down 'L'. Then, I bend the L slightly inwards toward the rail and solder it to the rail. Works like a charm. Practice that as well on the workbench using a piece of flextrack.

Rich

[richhotrain]

Andy, I find myself thinking about your layout, and the more that I think about it, the more I am convinced that you should move forward with the wiring and treat the drop down section as a semi-permanent duckunder. Once you master the soldering of feeders and finalize the routing of the bus wires, you can always go back and tackle the drop down section. This approach would also permit you to move forward with the possible addition of a booster and circuit breakers for separate power districts.

Rich

[Lost in A2]

I want to throw something out there.

If you're able to run trains on DC, -and- your locomotives have DCC decoders, just plug in the PowerCab, for now. Just to see it work. 

Then continue with the wiring project. 

[ndbprr]

Back to the original topic.  There is no reason you can't double up cat 6 wire and twist the  ends together for a larger current capacity and longer lengths.

[richhotrain]

ndbprr

Back to the original topic.  There is no reason you can't double up cat 6 wire and twist the  ends together for a larger current capacity and longer lengths.

Is that really advisable? I don't know enough to challenge that approach, but it seems to me that it would be far better to forgo 23 gauge wire, if it is too fine, in favor of a heavier gauge wire such as 22 gauge or even 20 gauge.

[riogrande5761]

I used 20 AWG solid to give a little margin when I need longer drops where the bus isn't directly under the track.

[fwright]

The Milwaukee Road Warrior

I don't know what I will end up with for locomotives but I'm planning for about a dozen, of which, only 2 or 3 tops will ever be running at the same time. Probably just me and one of the kids running one each. A road freight and a switcher. Cut off switches sound like a great idea ... like numerous things that I would have to research how to do. I'm kind of waiting to see what kind of feedback I get here.

I haven't been part of the discussion, but will throw my 2 cents in.

The calcs have shown that the Cat 6 wire will be adequate for your feeders.  You could go bigger, but not any smaller.

You can add a second throttle to Power Cab without difficulty.  Adding a third can't be done.  So if you have only one of the kids and yourself operating, the Power Cab is sufficient with the addition of a second throttle.

If you want a 3rd train/3rd operator, you will need to add the Smart Booster which will provide extra current and has provision for extra throttles.  Your Power Cab becomes a throttle to the Smart Booster, which serves as both command station and booster.  Personally, with 2, max 3 operators, I wouldn't bother with power districts - the one booster is sufficient to run everything.  I'm a firm believer in one person and one throttle per train in motion.

Keep it as simple as you can - it's easier to construct and maintain if you are not an electrical/electronics type.

My 2 cents

Fred W

[Lost in A2]

Fred, I don't think you are right about the limit on a PowerCab. When I first started planning my N-scale layout, I was expecting three operators. I ended up with two, but I think I bought a four-port PCP; I will look when I get home tonight. 

[gregc]

fwright

The calcs have shown that the Cat 6 wire will be adequate for your feeders.  You could go bigger, but not any smaller.

i think there'd be little harm in going much smaller, but larger gauge wires would probably be much easier to handle.

here are some values considering

• that code 83 rail is the equivalent of 26g wire
• cat 6 is 23g, cat 5 24g
• that there are 1' feeders every 6' and therefore every piece of rail is within 6' of 2 feeders

these values show that the ressitance through the 2 feeders and rail are less than 0.1 Ohm, a voltage drop of less than 0.1V at 1A

Feeder/Track resistance: wireG 22, railG 26
    n 1, k 1 rWire 0.016 Ohm/ft, rRail 0.122 Ohm/ft, tot  0.069 Ohm

Feeder/Track resistance: wireG 24, railG 26
    n 1, k 1 rWire 0.026 Ohm/ft, rRail 0.122 Ohm/ft, tot  0.074 Ohm

Feeder/Track resistance: wireG 28, railG 26
    n 1, k 1 rWire 0.065 Ohm/ft, rRail 0.122 Ohm/ft, tot  0.094 Ohm

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