Greetings,
I am returning to HO after a 6 years sabbatical from model railroading. I first had a HO layout with a mostly brass MKT roster. Loved the fidelity of brass hated the running abilities. Seems like I was constantly tinkering trying to find that perfect balance. I then went to an O scale three rail layout because of the command control and the amazing sound that could come from those big locos. I am now coming back to HO mostly because of the amazing pastic stuff being done and MKT factory paint. Now for the dilemma, while I do see the advantages of DCC I also have some concerns.
First of all, I have not been very impressed with on board sound in HO. Maybe I am spoiled to the bigger sound box capabilities of O. Can anyone advise me on alternatives to sound besides on board? Maybe I just have not heard the right sound decoders. I did in the nineties have the Soundtraxx under the table system and I really liked the big booming sound I got from the big speakers it was hooked up to. It was thought analoge and some of the sounds were kind of more like alien space ships. I have looked at the Surroundtraxx but it looks pretty complicated and by the time yout set it up with all the speakers and loconet stuff seems more expensive than it is worth. Can any of the better sound decoders like the new Tsunamis be hooked up to play in an under table speaker inclosure and be synched to individual decoders that are running at the time? Or would this be even more complex to maintain?
Also, while researching, reading and comparing all of the starter DCC systems I cannot seem to answer this question. While the Digitrax Zephyr allows you to run 10 things does that mean I can control just ten decoders or ten loco sets if I have the amps? Another words would two ABA sets be two of these ten or six?
Finally, do you guys that have gone whole hog DCC find it more complex and more maintenance, or does the DCC environment offer more fun than the increased complexity seems to give you.
I plan to build a dog bone type of layout about eight by 24 feet. The goal is to recreate a scaled down version of the MKT through Granger, TX in the very early fifties where my Grandfather was a section foreman. The back part of the layout will be a hidden four track staging yard, so I am thinking of seeing three trains and a yard switcher running at the most.
Any advice you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated.
blabride, welcome to the forum. I will try to answer some of your questions.
Speaking on sound quality. I just purchased the Denver & Rio Grande Western train set that Lionel has on the market. It has sound also. What I noticed was that it is fairly loud, however, it doesn't seem any louder than the HO PCM Chessie Steam Special that I have or not much louder than some of the other sound loco's I have.
Personally I feel the sound needs to be toned down so If you have several on the layout at one time you can hear each one individually and not a bunch of loud noises making it unclear where the chuff's are coming from. Just my opinion.
As for how many engines can be run on the Zypher, that depends on how many amps each engine pulls. With sound you will be using more amps and less without sound.
I am using a NCE Power Pro system with 5 amps of power and have no problem running 6 engines at one time.
But to answer your question two ABA lachups would count as 6 engines unless there are dummies in the mix.
There was someone here that has a Zepher system and said they had more than 10 engines running at the same time with no problems.
As for maintenance, the only thing I have come across is cleaning the track occasionally. I ran trains for about a month and started having problems with them not responding to commands or stopping on the track. I brougth the problem up on this forum and found that to solve the problem modelers were using the "GLEAM" treatment to keep the track clean.
Basically what the GLEAM treatment is, is to take 400-600 grit sand paper and sand the track until it is smooth. Then take a harder metal, stainless steel was suggested, and burnish the track so it is completely smooth. The final step is to take metal polish and polish the rail then wipe it clean of polish.
This treatment has lasted for months if not more than a year on some layouts. I am currently in the process of doing the GLEAM treatment to my layout.
Going DCC will be much more enjoyable overall. Luckily I started out in DCC after reading how much everyone loved it and vowed never to go back to DC.
Hope this has helped some.
Bill
blabrideFirst of all, I have not been very impressed with on board sound in HO.
Can anyone advise me on alternatives to sound besides on board?
Can any of the better sound decoders like the new Tsunamis be hooked up to play in an under table speaker inclosure and be synched to individual decoders that are running at the time? Or would this be even more complex to maintain?
While the Digitrax Zephyr allows you to run 10 things does that mean I can control just ten decoders or ten loco sets if I have the amps? Another words would two ABA sets be two of these ten or six?
The only advice I can give is, use the onboard sound units and just learn to tollerate the low quality sound.
Sound is a very subjective thing. I personally think that turning the volume down, sometimes WAY down, helps. Another thing to keep in mind, when comparing HO sound to O sound, is that the physics just don't allow that much smaller speaker to sound as good.
As for the two vs. six vs ten thing, there are two issues: Amps and addressing. For the amps, you cannot exceed the rated amperage of your DCC system (2.5 for the Zephyr), period. It doesn't matter how much addressing capability you have or don't have. A single loco that draws 3 amps will overload it, but you could run 25 at 1/10th amp each (see below).
For the addressing, if you never break up those ABA consists, you can give each set of three a single address and those six locos would count as two addresses. If you give each unit separate addresses and use another consisting method, then yes, it would be six. But if maybe you remove one of the A's once in a while and run it separately, you can give the AB set one address and the other A a second address and that would count as two. Or you can... Well, you get the idea.
Also, DCC doesn't necessarily increase complexity. In fact, for a given level of layout control it can actually decrease complexity because you don't need all the block/cab wiring.
Track maintenance is maybe a little more critical than DC (or AC) though, especially with sound, because if a decoder loses the DCC signal it will, in effect, re-boot itself. DC, on the other hand, will just coast over the disruption.
Is it worth it? I think DCC has a lot of advantages, and opens up a lot of possibilities that otherwise would be difficult if not impossible. But only you can decide what, if anything, those possibilities and advantages are worth to you.
Steve
Welcome aboard from a DCC convert!
I came back to the hobby after a 40-year absence. Yeah, things have changed a lot, and almost all for the better.
Having come from the silence of old HO, today's sound engines are a grand symphony to my ears. No, I don't get the thundering bass or ear-shattering whistle sounds of a 1:1 steamer, but what I've got is enough for me, and, more often than not, too much for the rest of the family. Still, there are some systems that are better, and some not as good. I'm very happy with my QSI-equipped engines, pretty happy with Soundtraxx, and a bit disappointed with the Digitrax SFX0416 units. (They just aren't loud enough, even cranked up all the way.)
Regarding lash-ups, or "consists" or "MU's" as they're more typically called in DCC manuals. Each DCC manufacturer does this a bit differently. On my Lenz system, I need one address for each engine, plus one for the consist itself. So, each of your ABA units would take 4. What I have not tried is setting up the consist and then deleting the individual engines from the stack. I don't know if that would work or not, but I suspect it wouldn't. On the other hand, the stack on a Lenz is 32 engines. I don't have that many. Even if I did, the system would allow me to enter another, and would simply discard the least-recently-used engine. Entering an engine, by the way, is as simple as punching in its address, which typically is set up as the road number.
If you always run that same ABA consist together, you can take a shortcut by setting all the decoders to the same address. That way, they will all respond at the same time, and you won't need to assemble them in a DCC consist. However, one of the nice things about DCC is being able to "speed match" your engines, so you can have multi-engine consists with the engines sharing the load more equally. Setting the address on an engine, fortunately, is another easy procedure, so you can try something like this, and if you don't like it, it's easy enough to go back to the way it had been.
I've got a small layout, 5x12 feet in HO, and I really appreciate DCC. A larger layout can be arranged with blocks to allow multiple engines and multiple cabs, but that's hard to do when the layout is too small to allow for more than a few blocks. With DCC, I don't have to worry about that at all, and I can run any engine, anywhere on the layout, subject only to the laws of physics, notably, "No two locomotives can occupy the same space at the same time." You see, DCC allows you to run two engines head-on into each other. Gomez Addams would use DCC.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Welcome Back,
As you have noticed, the sound in smaller engines does not have the same 'depth' as in the larger models. Other than the reason that the speakers are smaller, most HO sound engines are over driving the speakers. I have found that turning the sound down about 1/2 way does wonders for the quality of the sound.
Soundtraxx has discontinued the Sierra sound system. They are now marketing a 'Surroundtraxx' system that will port the sound out to under layout speakers and the engine sound will 'follow' the train if the engine has a Digitrax 'transponder' unit installed. IIRC, the unit starts at over $600 and will support up to 6 engine sounds and 8 speakers locations. The demo I saw was impressive, but there were too many limitations with the choice of engine/bell/whistle sounds. I suspect it would be good in N scale.
As far as the Zephyr command station. You can address 10 engines at the same time. If you ABA set of engines has 3 seperate decoder addresses, then 3 'slots' of the 10 are taken up. You can still have hundreds of engines parked on the layout, but only 10 can be running at the same time. The Zephyr puts out 2.5 amps, but you can add 'boosters' to increase the output power.
Jim Bernier
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
"You see, DCC allows you to run two engines head-on into each other. Gomez Addams would use DCC."
MisterBeasley, that has to be one of the best lines I've seen here.
Thanks for the reply's. Does the consisting differ by brand. It seems the Lenz system does not let you stack an ABA set of F's to one address but the Digitrax and NRC does? Can one use the power from an mrc transformer or such to bump up the amps on any of the systems?
I have found some very interesting things on the Litchfield station website about hooking up sound only decoders to an under the table speaker. This would be perfect for those smaller locos without room for a decent acoustic mass.
How reliable are decoder proving to be? If you don't run a loco for a few months does it have to be completley reprogrammed?
Lenz will let you make up consists of engines. I think it just needs to have all the engines, plus the consist ID, in its "stack" at the same time. The "stack" is all the active engines, and it can be up to 32 of them.
Decoders are pretty solid. I've never had to reprogram one in the 3 1/2 years that I've been running DCC. I've had a few under the table for a while, too, and when I put them on the track they were fine.
The limit to a DCC system's power is the system itself. You can't add on random transformers to increase this, but you can create "power districts," each powered by a DCC "booster" unit. In my experience here, I think people worry far too much about the amount of power available. Some go out and buy a 5-amp system, and then add a pair of 8-amp boosters before they've even run a single train. That's enough to run a decent-sized club layout. A 5-amp system will easily run 10 sound engines, all at once, or 20 non-sound engines. For most home layouts, all the extra power that people are buying is overkill. You can start with a Zephyr and add on as you need it, or get a heftier system right away, and maybe you'll never need any more.
By the way, when I came back after my 40 years without trains, I was having fun. But, when I got DCC and ran my first train with that, well, I was an 8-year-old kid again. It really does that to people.
blabride Thanks for the reply's. Does the consisting differ by brand. It seems the Lenz system does not let you stack an ABA set of F's to one address but the Digitrax and NRC does?
Thanks for the reply's. Does the consisting differ by brand. It seems the Lenz system does not let you stack an ABA set of F's to one address but the Digitrax and NRC does?
Consisting, or "stacking" as you call it, is not necessarily the same as setting multiple decoders to the same address. Yes, setting them all to the same address will let you run them as a consist, because they will all respond to the same commands, but neither the DCC system or the individual decoders "know" that more than one loco is responding.
There are two other types of consisting that go by various names based on the DCC system in use. One is when you tell the decoders that they are in a consist, and what that consist's address is. Then they will respond to the consist address, or their individual addresses.
The other is when you tell the command station that certain locos, and you have to input their addresses in one way or another, are in a consist. With that method, when you address the consist, the command station sends the commands to the individual addresses.
All DCC systems will accommodate the "set the decoders to the same address" method. I'm pretty sure that the "big three" (Digitrax, Lenz, and NCE), and maybe others support the other two methods, although as I mentioned their names for those methods will vary.
And in all cases, the number of addresses used for a given number of locos depends on the method used.
blabrideCan one use the power from an mrc transformer or such to bump up the amps on any of the systems?
No, that won't work. The command station/booster is rated at so many amps of output. Think in terms of a light bulb. If you connect it to a 20 amp circuit, it won't put out any more light than if you have it on a 15 amp circuit. Not an exact analogy, but you get the idea.
blabrideI have found some very interesting things on the Litchfield station website about hooking up sound only decoders to an under the table speaker. This would be perfect for those smaller locos without room for a decent acoustic mass.
Yeah, the usual complaint about that type of setup is that the sound doesn't follow the loco around. But on a smaller layout, that's not so much of an issue.
blabrideHow reliable are decoder proving to be? If you don't run a loco for a few months does it have to be completley reprogrammed?
That depends on a lot of things. The quality of the decoder, the quality of the installation, the electrical characteristics of the layout itself, and even individual CV settings (turning analog off) can all come into play. Generally they're pretty dependable, unless you have issues with an outside influence such as those I mentioned.
Thanks. this makes sense now. You would need different ypes of consistinh for different kinds of operations, very cool. My daughter really likes the like and feel of the Zephyr, I like that you can use a MRC controller as an extra cab.
The Zephyr can address 10 locos at the same time. That means you can have 10 running at once, provided you have the power. I've actually run 8 HO locos, including some with sound, at the same time without overloading it, but all of those were new and individually had rather low current draw.
What the 10 loco limit does NOT mean is that you cna have only 10 locos with decoders. You can have 1000 locos with decoders, you can only run 10 of them at the same time. The same goes for the limits for other DCC systems - for example the Super Chief can address 120 locos simultaneously. That does not mean your collection is limited to 120 locos - you can have thousands if you want, but you can only run up to 120 of them at the same time, provided you have the current.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
blabride...Also, while researching, reading and comparing all of the starter DCC systems I cannot seem to answer this question. While the Digitrax Zephyr allows you to run 10 things does that mean I can control just ten decoders or ten loco sets if I have the amps? Another words would two ABA sets be two of these ten or six?...
First of all, although it is advertised as controlling 10 address, the Zephyr will actually control 12. As others have said, when you consist locos together that have different addresses, each one normally takes a slot in the command station, but you can get aroound this. If you consist the locos manually by program CV19(the consist address) instead of using the command station consisting functions, each consist will only take one slot.
If you are going to have a lot of engines, be sure to get a system that supports "Advanced Consisting". Before buying the Zephyr, check out the reports of programming sound locos with the unit. Not sure if they are fact, but I've seen the issues questioned on some boards.
Larry
http://www.youtube.com/user/ClinchValleySD40
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52481330@N05/
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/500/page/1/ppuser/8745/sl/c
ClinchValleySD40If you are going to have a lot of engines, be sure to get a system that supports "Advanced Consisting". Before buying the Zephyr, check out the reports of programming sound locos with the unit. Not sure if they are fact, but I've seen the issues questioned on some boards.
Actually, you can use the Zephyr's "blast mode" to program sound decoders quite effectively.
I had locos with QSI sound, Loksound, and a Soundtraxx DSD, all programmed with no problems on the Zephyr.
blabride,I can't see why you couldn't have a stationary sound decoder hooked up to a larger speaker and programmed to the same number as an onboard decoder or even consisted to it. I know I've tested Tsunami's on the bench without a motor attached, just the decoder and the speaker. It worked fine. The trick is that you pick the right speaker for the Tsunami (I think they require 8 ohm speakers).
In operation, say you have several F-units & GP9's on your layout (they all have EMD 567's), and all of them are DCC decoder equipped without sound and programmed to their cab number for an address. Then you'd install a Tsunami 567 decoder with a decent speaker set-up under the middle of your layout, and program it to something like address 01. Then you'd select "01" on your throttle, then MU an F-unit or GP like "1229" to address "01". Now when you run address "01", the Tsunami will produce the sound, while loco "1229" moves around the layout. It should work, but it just won't be directional.
It might be even better if you put a Tsunami in the loco, too, then program both the stationary and the mobile decoders to the same address. That way, you get the bass (which tends to be non-directional anyways) from the stationary decoder with the treble out of the mobile decoder.
As others have said, you can program multiple locos to the same address to save on slot space. For example, I have owned a Zephyr for about 6 years. I have a 4-unit RDC set from P1K. Because my RDC's are all New Haven and the New Haven used numbers below 129 for most of their RDC fleet, each RDC on my layout is programmed to the car number: 121, 44, 48, and 126.
Why is this important? Okay, first a little history. DCC is 20 years old, and back then memory was precious. 2-digits was considered more than enough for most people (after all, how many people run more than 100 engines at a time?), and so DCC architecture was set up to use 2-digits for everything. To expand the use of these 2-digits, they used "hex" which adds 6 more values. This allowed for more characters to be used without using another digit. So when counting in hex, it goes like: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, A, B, C, D, E, F, 10, 11, 12, etc. The highest number available with just numbers would be 99. The highest number available in hex is "FF", which equals 128. Therefore, everything below 129 is actually only 2-digits in DCC. When they decided to add 4-digit addresses to DCC (so folks could use the real cab number as the address), they actually put the first two digits in one spot in the decoder memory, and the last two in another. Then these are put together to form a 4-digit number (even tho' it's really two 2-digit numbers). (BTW, nobody uses "hex" anymore, they pretty much just convert to digital automatically.)
This matters because all decoders have the ability to store two different addresses due to the old and new address abilities. CV29 tells the decoder which one to use. CV29 means several things depending on what it's programmed to, one of which is if it's 2- or 4-digit.
I programmed all my NH RDC's to a 2-digit number based on their car number: 121, 44, 48, 126. I also programmed all of them to the same 4-digit number, 4448. When I want to run an RDC all by itself, I program CV29=002, and the RDC runs as it's 2-digit number. If I want to run it with several RDC's together, I program CV29=034 to all of them (if they're in the same direction), and they all run as one address: 4448. It works pretty well.
If you had locos that all had 4-digit cab numbers, then I would do the opposite. IOW, I would program all the locos to a 2-digit number to use as the "MU" address, and use CV29 to select between them.
As for DCC complexity, it depends. On my HO home layout, it's as simple as can be on it's 25' x 50' size. Two 14AWG wires running the length of the layout with feeders every 9 feet. I have no circuit breakers, it's all one block. I have a UR91 and 3 DT400R radio throttles with my Zephyr command station, plus a half dozen UP5 throttle sockets connected with phone cable around the layout. It can't get much easier that that.
At my HO club, it's a world of difference. But then, we want full block detection, circuit breaker protection, operating signalling system, transponding, and the ability to run a lot of trains at one time (we have a 6300 sq. ft. layout room to fill). It's incredibly complicated because we want to do incredibly complicated things. We currently have 8 boosters, eight 16-block detectors, 36 circuit breakers, a dozen stationary decoders for switches, and so on.
Oh, and sound locos all have capacitors these days, and that causes problems. When you first turn the layout on, or when it tries to recover from a short, all these capacitors try to charge all at the same time. This "in rush" current can cause the circuit breakers to trip and not reset properly (as they continually trip over and over trying to charge these caps). Certain kinds of circuit breakers say they can handle this. The only other way is to either isolate your sound locos or put in bigger boosters to handle to the load.
Consisting does vary by brand. Lenz and NCE (among others) use "Advanced Consisting". Digitrax uses "Universal Consisting" by default (but can be changed to use "Advanced"). And cheapo systems use "Basic Consisting".
"Basic" is doing what I do with my RDC's. You program them all to the same address. It's pretty limited, however.
"Universal" is consisting using the command station. First you select an address, then you add more addresses to it. The "brain" keeps track of which addresses are MU'd to the another. The advantages are that you don't need to physically have the locos on the layout to add or remove them to the MU. You don't have to worry about different brands of decoders and how they react to MU'ing Also, you don't have to worry about forgetting what's MU'd to what, because if you clear the memory on the brain, all MU's are deleted. The drawback is that it, too, is fairly limited in that there's not much one can do to customize the MU set. It will run the locos, but not much more than that.
"Advanced" is when the consist info is programmed into decoders on the layout. When you make an MU, you're programming the loco decoders to use the same information based on a single address. The advantages are that you can MU a set of locos at home, then take them to another layout and they will still be MU'd. Also, that one can control more precisely what each loco in the MU does, and that one can actually select an MU by picking one of the middle locos, rather than the lead loco. However, the drawback is that some MU's can get very complicated. I know a recent edition of Model Railroad News had a two-page article on how to MU an Atlas QSI loco to a BLI Blue Line loco (or something like that). I read that and still don't know what they were trying to do.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Paul,
Thanks this is exactly what I have thought might work from what I have researched. Im thinking of using a Tsunami or to hooked up like I have seen on Litchfield Stations websitr as ambiant noise for those locos not with onboard sound. Heck, it could even as you say add to those with onbaord sound. You have also done an excellent job of explaining consisting. I would most likely use the Universal the most.
Paul3I can't see why you couldn't have a stationary sound decoder hooked up to a larger speaker and programmed to the same number as an onboard decoder or even consisted to it. I know I've tested Tsunami's on the bench without a motor attached, just the decoder and the speaker. It worked fine. The trick is that you pick the right speaker for the Tsunami (I think they require 8 ohm speakers).
However if you want to pursue this option you might want to look at some other threads here. Especially ones by Otis as below:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/131312/1476076.aspx#1476076http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/129436/1456169.aspx#1456169http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/126375/1426003.aspx#1426003http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/126811.aspxhttp://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/129282/1454679.aspx#1454679<<--Attempts to solve the multiple locomotive limitations I mentioned above without reprogramming all the time.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/127875/1457197.aspx#1457197
Has no-one realised that an ABA setup, although it may be a consist with one address is actually 3 motors pulling X amount of amps.
ukrailroader
Certainly, but if they draw .5 amp each stalled, and you stall a 3 unit set, that's still only 1.5 amps total. You need enough pwoer to run what you plan to run all at the same time, but there is a tendencey to go overboard - no different with automobiles, do you really NEED 400hp to drive on the streets? Absolutely not. But 400hp is more attractive than 300hp. Thre is also a tendency to think a given loco drawa a lot more power than it does. I've been reading plenty of old issues of MR lately, and even in the 70's you'd be suprised at the tested current draw in various reviews - many older locos have the reputation of "oh no, can't put DCC in that, it draws over 2 amps" and it is simply unfounded based on actual tests. There certainly have been some more recent exceptiosn, the P2K E unit blunder comes to mind, but they did replace those back then so you didn;t have to be stuck with an O scale motor in an HO loco. Most modern equipment is quite efficient, even low cost locos like Bachmann don't have huge current requirements anymore.
Bottom line, test or find information on YOUR locos and plan from there. Don't just rely on heresay like "such and such loco needs 1.5 amps because it has a sound decoder"
Randy,It's the "in rush" current that's the problem with sound decoders. In actual operation, sound decoders don't use that much power. But on start up, all those capacitors try to charge at the same instant which can overload the circuit breaker.
One solution is to buy a larger capacity booster & circuit breaker to handle the load. Another is not to have too many sound decoders on powered sections of track. The best solution is to use a circuit breaker like Tony's PSX which is supposed to handle these capacitors charging in a such a way that they don't pop the breaker. I've seen this happen many times at my RR club. Once the power is on, one can add a dozen or more sound locos to the track without issue because they don't use that much juice when operating. But if the track shorts out, the breaker won't reset because it overloads trying to charge the caps in the sound locos. These locos must be removed until the breaker resets, then they can be put back on. In one yard, I fixed that problem by changing the breaker from 3 amps to 5 amps.
I dont smell the coal or oil in the steam coming out of the engines I have seen in real life anymore. But in HO scale, the sound tells me how the model is doing. Sound of power when set right will haul harder and louder under a great load or quiet down and drift when not so loaded.
If the sound engine stays in one spot inside a tunnel, it means it's not moving. I find sound to be useful this way. Finally the voice on the sound engines such as "Cee vee three equals three" is a positive feedback to me during programming.
I tend to quiet the sounds a little. Wife gets a bit put out that I would invest the time to make alot of noise occasionally in the train room.
There is a danger of having too many DCC engines. Too many little children to program, name, feed and keep track of. I find about 8 engines subdivided into tasks much easier to deal with. I once had dozens of DCC engines. No more. Few good engines makes me happy than hundreds of cranky, needy and otherwise time consuming moochers. I want to run trains, not tinker with them.
At the Club, when I run a engine with a dual mode decoder that knows the difference between Analog and DCC on the track, there is some interesting moments. There is a trestle on a downgrade that you need to slow down for because derailment is a real possibility at that bridge. The DCC sound engine would obey the drop in voltage as I slow it on the analog throttle. Because it is slowing on a downgrade from a certain speed to like 10 scale mph or whatever, the brakes would squeal.
That noise of a engine squealing brakes trying to slow for the bridge draws alot of positive attention from some who otherwise would never ever think of getting into DCC and Sound.
However, analog engines are protected by gaps, blocks and dead zones.
DCC engines, the collision possibility are very real. We once had a situation where a fast moving loco zipped through a junction and reversed against another train elsewhere on the layout on the same main. The scramble and diving for the controls to punch in the stop orders to the runaway was timely as it saved a very expensive head on. A moment's in attention to a train on the mainline invites danger.
DCC is also FUN! Some folks like to have a steam engine up front, helper engine in the back. Giving two throttles to two people to run both engines independantly, yet working together to get the train over the mountain. The helper person would watch the couplers for strain or pull and adjust throttle accordinly.
Finally when a engine or car derails, DCC is FAST and shuts the power and beeps. In the old days, it would sit and cook until someone realized what the problem was.
DCC for me is two simple wires going into several PDB's feeding a group of tracks locally around the layout. Very simple and took a few hours to wire completely.
If I had to do that wiring with analog, many toggles would be needed and much work with panels, cable busing etc would be neccesary.
Dont mis understand me, I still enjoy a good analog engine set quietly moving the train down the track. That clickety-clack is still there under neath all that noise of modern technology.
Well maybe we all need 20 amp boosters then. I tried to make this happen with my Zephyr by running a coupel of QSI and a couple of Loksound locos, as well as a coupel non-sound, all at the same time, and then deliberately shorted the track. When I removed the short, they all started up fine. I guess the limit to be caught by inrush current problems is more than 4 for the Zephyr. I've read where peopel say they have a problem with just one sound loco - I truly find this hard to believe unless they have each power district breaker set to 1 amp or less, and even then - if 2.5 amps supports 4 starting up after a short, 1 amp should handle 1 loco.
The real solution is for these sound decoder manufacturers to fix the dang problem. Not all brands have it, so it is clearly possible to do what they do with a capacitor and yet avoid an inrush problem. Mark Gurries posted a circuit on one of the DCC groups on Yahoo a long time ago that would eliminate the problem yet support a potentially larger capacitor for even longer hold up. I'm not hodlign my breath though.
Funny you should mention this. The Deramus and Barriger regimes on the Katy re engined everything with EMD 567 diesels in the sixties. So yes I could have solid red fa1's running with f3s and they would sound alike.
Let's just say you aint stalling my BLI F7 ABBA sound set. If I stall on that widdle table, Ive got issues for durn tooting.
Now if I stall that monster at the club, maybe club wires too kinder puny to feed such greed far down the power bus yah?
MisterBeasleyYou see, DCC allows you to run two engines head-on into each other. Gomez Addams would use DCC.
You need to stop thinking like me. I was looking for a picture or you tube video of Gomez running his trains, volume fully cranked ramming into each other at full throttle!
What are the odds we would both be thinking the same thing?
-D
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Randy
If the decoder has a capacitor hookup (keep alive circuit)...
Just use a capacitor rated for 20+ Volts. You can get these parts at jameco.com
The resistor limits the total current inrushing to the capacitor. And the diode only allows electricity to flow in one direction (from the capacitor when it is needed.)
So when the current charges (in rushes) the capacitor, it has to pass through the resistor, lowering the current. However when the capacitor is drained, it only has to pass through the diode, so no energy is lost passing through the resistor again. (Although you get a 0.7V drop across the diode)
You can use a similar circuit with a full bridge rectifier to light passenger cars with little to no flicker! Just hook the rectifier + to the above circuit. Then the negative leg of the above circuit to the passenger car lights, then to the - connection on the rectifier. Although such a large capacitor would be serious overkill unless you were lighting lots of lights.
These parts are commonly available at rat-shack.
EDIT: Fixed typo for voltage drop across diode. Sorry about the confusion.
Last ChanceThere is a danger of having too many DCC engines. Too many little children to program, name, feed and keep track of. I find about 8 engines subdivided into tasks much easier to deal with. I once had dozens of DCC engines. No more. Few good engines makes me happy than hundreds of cranky, needy and otherwise time consuming moochers. I want to run trains, not tinker with them.
That's where software such as JMRI's DecoderPro comes in.
Fifty-six of my 77 locos have decoders, with 20 of the remaining ones (#21 is a shelf queen with sentimental value) slated for eventual conversion. None of them could be considered "cranky, needy and otherwise time consuming moochers" because my objective is to run trains, too.
So, naming, programming, and "keeping track of" is all done via DecoderPro. It even makes the initial setup and fine tuning easier. All the CV calculations are done for you so you can pick your options from a plain-language panel on your computer screen. None of that "add 24 (hex or decimal?) to CV 29 if you're headed east with a triple-header, but only add 18 (decimal or hex?) if you're headed west and the moon is full."
Then you just save the roster entry and you have a permanent "copy' of that loco's programming. You can use that roster entry to re-program an entire decoder, if necessary, in a matter of seconds. You can also use it to speed the setup of another, similar loco.
I can't remember the last time I used a throttle to program a CV. DecoderPro is much faster, much easier, and the roster entries make it much more "permanent". And did I mention it's free?
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/index.html
DigitalGriffin Randy If the decoder has a capacitor hookup (keep alive circuit)... Just use a capacitor rated for 20+ Volts. You can get these parts at jameco.com The resistor limits the total current inrushing to the capacitor. And the diode only allows electricity to flow in one direction (from the capacitor when it is needed.) So when the current charges (in rushes) the capacitor, it has to pass through the resistor, lowering the current. However when the capacitor is drained, it only has to pass through the diode, so no energy is lost passing through the resistor again. (Although you get a 0.7V drop across the diode) You can use a similar circuit with a full bridge rectifier to light passenger cars with little to no flicker! Just hook the rectifier + to the above circuit. Then the negative leg of the above circuit to the passenger car lights, then to the - connection on the rectifier. Although such a large capacitor would be serious overkill unless you were lighting lots of lights. These parts are commonly available at rat-shack. EDIT: Fixed typo for voltage drop across diode. Sorry about the confusion.
There you go. If the sound decoder makers would add that resistor and diode, no more power up surge problem. Simple and cheap. You theoretically can apply that to many decoders, even non-sound, and get a keep-alive feature like the Lenz USP.