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Coal Mine Info

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Coal Mine Info
Posted by chestnutridge on Monday, September 25, 2006 7:48 PM
Anyone having questions re underground coal mines and surface preparation plants can post me a question. I've been underground and working the surface for over 30 years now. My knowledge is from the mid 70's to the present.
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Posted by tomikawaTT on Monday, September 25, 2006 8:25 PM

Thank you for the kind offer.

Back in 1960 or so I "minefanned" the surface workings of several underground mines in Japan.  Without exception, they had a number of workshops (ranging from little sheds to substantial buildings, depending on the size and economic strength of the mining company) and other buildings around the minehead and preparation plant.  What sort of equivalent structures were/are common in U.S. mining practice?

Chuck  (modeling a Japanese coal hauler, circa 1964)

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Posted by chestnutridge on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:48 PM

chuck, at our mine which employs over 500 union employees our surface facilities are the following. a supply yard with 2, 44" guage tracks, empties and loads. our supplies are "dropped" down a slope attached to a slope car. there is a maintenace shop building for repair mine cars and mine locomotives. there is an adjacent vehicle maintenance shop for pickup trucks, forklifts, etc. a hoist house where the hoist operator "drops" the hoist car into the mine on what looks like a big reel with 2" cable.

the prep plant has the main coal prep building which is 110' tall, a maintenance shop, numerous conveyor belts which run from the mine, to the prep plant and then either to the train loadout or to the slate dump. there are also office buildings at both sites for management personnel, 3 sided buildings for storing electric motors and load centers and a centrally located warehouse for underground supplies. at our mine we have a captive railroad that runs from the prep plant to the river so we have a clean coal silo for the train to load from, 2 raw coal silos for storing coal from the mine in case the prep plant is down for repairs and a raw coal stacker for additional storage. there are numerous ponds where water is pumped from underground, treated and used in the coal cleaning process plus a thickener where waste water from the prep plant is pumped, the solids removed and then the water is used again in the plant. there is also 1 silo at the plant which stores magnetite for cleaning the coal. there are also numerous small buildings scattered about such a a grease shanty where bulk oil for the mine is stored, a hazmat shed for oil spill supplys, pump houses for the ponds etc. i can't think of much more but will be glad to answer any more questions you have. 

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Posted by coalminer3 on Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:31 AM

Good Morning:  Just a little more to add to your most informative post.  Captive railroads are owned by a company such as a mining operation. 

You probably remember (or maybe even worked at) captive mines.  In this part of WV, US Steel way a big player not all that long ago.  Most everything that they had is long gone.

Does your mine flood load?

work safe

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Posted by chestnutridge on Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:08 PM
fellow miner, we don't have a flood loader but local management tries to submit it in the budget every year. we load our train from an overhead bin over the track that is fed by conveyor from a clean coal silo. when the silo is full it holds about 1 1/2 trains. we can also load tri-axles at the bin for truck coal but not tractor trailers because of the tight turning radius at the track area. our railroad is captive and does not cross any public highways so our locomotive operators do not need a federal railroad license to operate. our track is 17 miles from the prep plant to the river with alot of fill areas and cuts. very nice scenery no matter what the season. there are also 14 bridges along the route. we were originally us steel but have been sold and bought 3 times since i've been here. stay safe and feel free to inquire anytime. 
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Posted by coalminer3 on Friday, September 29, 2006 8:45 AM

Story of everyone's life.  If there's enough money, there's not enough room; if there's not enough money, we have plenty of room.  Most of the time it's both.  What do you use for motive power?  r/c or crewed?

work safe

 

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Posted by chestnutridge on Friday, September 29, 2006 6:10 PM
coalminer3, we have 1 loco operator per shift. we use 2 sd38-2's, 1 on each end. going to the prep plant from the harbor we run the lead loco long hood forward and going back to the harbor the other engine is cab forward. upon arrival at the prep plant the operator sets the lead loco up on a remote control box, dismounts the loco, climbs stairs to the load out, starts the belt, and once the bin at the loadout starts to fill begins loading the cars and moving the train by remote control. when all the cars are filled he shuts everything down, climbs into the other loco, shuts the remote off, sets the loco up he's in for "manual lead" and heads for the harbor. at the harbor he sets the remote up and dumps the cars into a bottom dump. there's only room at the dump for 1 car at a time. total round trip is approx. 3 hrs. the engine on the back of the train takes a beating from coal dust blowing back on it and requires more intake filter changes than the lead loco. walthers power plant kit has a bottom dump included and is a good representation of ours. by the way i freelance sw pa and my railroad is the chestnut ridge railroad in ho. i run gp40-2's, gp9's and my mow fleet is gp38-2's. as the weather forces me indoors more i'm going to post the chestnut ridge on the net. still have lots of yard work left with the leaves starting to turn. talk to you later.
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Posted by GRAMRR on Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:05 PM

Facinating thread - thanks for some interesting reading guys.  My layout plan has two "company" mines (one with vertical shaft and hoist house and one will be a drift mine), and an indepently owned tipple with a truck dump.  Thanks for the info on the types of structures, etc., I should plan for.  Most modelers only model a tipple and sometimes not even a shaft structure.

Chuck

Chuck

Grand River & Monongah Railroad and subsidiary Monongah Railway

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Posted by cefinkjr on Monday, October 2, 2006 8:58 PM

I'm gonna take you up on your offer of detailed information about coal mining.  This may be a wierd question but:

If a coal preparation plant depends solely on rail for delivery of raw coal and hauling the clean coal away, what would be a typical ratio of car loads in and out (assuming all cars have the same capacity)?  In other words, does raw coal (including the shale and assorted other junk) require more or less cars than the clean coal?

BTW, chestnutridge, your screen name and your location tell me that you and I are from the same neck of the woods.  I grew up within sight of Lock #4 on the Monongahela River.

Chuck

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Posted by batterymule7 on Wednesday, October 4, 2006 1:18 PM

Chestnutridge,

I am an underground hard rock miner from Nevada.  I curious what kind of underground rail equipment you have encountered or operated over the years.  I have been a huge fan of the large four axle trolley motors but man are they hard to find info or pictures on.  In our mine we use truck and loader for haulage which is boring.  We were going to go rail for our redevelopment but BLM shut that down in a big hurry, seeing as we were going to rehab a mine that was over 50 years old and in Nevada, those are considered historical resources.  It is nice to see a fellow miner on here on my first visit. 

Stay safe.

Erik

batterymule7

Erik Batterymule7
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Posted by chestnutridge on Wednesday, October 4, 2006 6:49 PM
Chuck, having limited experience (2 yrs) in prep plants but seeing first hand I will guestimate at 3 to 1 ratios. This all depends on how the coal is mined at the face underground. For example: If the coal seam is 5' hight there would be about 20 percent garbage since a roof height of 6 to 7' would be attained. The height is not for the miners comfort but for the safe movement of supplies from the mouth of the mine to the working sections. We move very large rolls of conveyor belt on depressed center flats underground to working sections for example. The larger the roll the less mechanical splices and less chance of failure. If the coal seam is lower like what is found in North Central PA (around 3') then your ratio of coal to slate would be closer in number. When I built my coal mine for my layout I installed a bin loader for slate that is rail served. I used the Walthers kit and have 3 tracks for coal loads as per the prep plant footprint and a 4th track that goes behind the plant with a bin loader for slate. Slate has very little use in the real world but in my world it's used for fill on railroads (ballast), dam construction, and highway construction. I live in Fayette but work in Greene County. Hope I've been of assistance. Feel free to post any follow ups.
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Posted by chestnutridge on Wednesday, October 4, 2006 7:25 PM
BatteryMule7, I started in the mines after active duty army in 76. After 3 yrs underground I bid a rockdust motorman and drove a Westinghouse 37 ton motor (4 axle) and operated on trolly line DC power. I nicknamed my motor the USS Enterprise due to it's flat surface and length. The motor was extremley powerful and could pull 30 to 40 coal cars with no effort on the mainline. I once ripped out 4 blocks of track and didn't know it until the pusher motor called me on the radio and said he was getting a lot of dust. (Foreman Not Happy) I can't remember the cars capacity but 5 to 10 tons sticks in my head. The current mine I work at has battery motors and mantrips still in service that were purchased in the early 70's. Parts are extremely hard to find for them and we have rebuilt the bodies numerous times over the years. In the 1990's the State of PA approved the use of diesel equipment underground and our company was the 1st to purchase them. I worked on them from day one and they are more reliable than battery motors if maintained properly. Our supply motors are rated at 20 tons and the mantrips are rated at 5 ton. Both are powered by Caterpilar Diesels that are modified at the factory to reduce horsepower and diesel emmissions. A good website is Brookeville.com They manufacture underground motors and re-power engines for railroads with Cat engines. My company sent me there twice on a working tour and naturally I took a camera. They are state of the art and have a modern working turntable that is utilized on occasion by the Buffalo and Pittsburgh RR. If you are modeling from the 70's to the present you could use n gauge flats for mine cars and scratch build motors from the same by boxing them in and installing an open cab on 1 end. If you model mine flats you will need to install a back board on the flat that is closest to the mine mouth. This prevents supplies from falling off on slope mine haulages when moving underground from the surface. Nothing is aerodynamic underground so all haulage equipment can be boxed. In my time I've seen 2 axle and 4 axle motors underground so both would be correct. Feel free to ask follow ups.   
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Posted by cefinkjr on Wednesday, October 4, 2006 9:39 PM

 chestnutridge wrote:
Chuck, having limited experience (2 yrs) in prep plants but seeing first hand I will guestimate at 3 to 1 ratios. This all depends on how the coal is mined at the face underground. For example: If the coal seam is 5' hight there would be about 20 percent garbage since a roof height of 6 to 7' would be attained. ... If the coal seam is lower like what is found in North Central PA (around 3') then your ratio of coal to slate would be closer in number. When I built my coal mine for my layout I installed a bin loader for slate that is rail served. I used the Walthers kit and have 3 tracks for coal loads as per the prep plant footprint and a 4th track that goes behind the plant with a bin loader for slate. .

From this, I'm understanding that a mine working a 5' seam would produce 3 carloads of clean coal and 1 of slate and assorted other junk.  I'm concerned about an operation like Clinchfield's cleaning plant at Moss, VA which, interestingly enough, had no mine; all of its raw coal input arrived by rail and its clean coal (and "tailings") output went out by rail.  I guess I'm also trying to take into account the difference in the sizes of raw versus clean coal.  I've seen some pretty big chunks of coal come out of a mine and I wouldn't think they would utilize the cubic capacity of a hopper as well as the much smaller and uniform pieces after that same coal had been "cleaned".

Based on your information though, I think we can definitely say "it depends".  Big Smile [:D]

Thanks,

Chuck

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Posted by batterymule7 on Thursday, October 5, 2006 11:28 AM
You know Chuck you are right in your earlier post about modellers doing what I call the bear minimum to model mines on their layouts.  Sure you get a few who actually know what to do but I think that it is sad that there is so much that can be done with mining scenes on layouts and so few take advantage.  Sure the tipple and loadout are the important parts but look at all the detail one can go into by modelling the shaft collar and it's associated areas, or the portal running into the mountain, with steel or timber sets protuding and trolley wire, and pipe racks and car shops for mine cars and lokies and the like.  The way I see it is that everybody models tipples and loaders, the elite really take the time to make the mine a mine and not just some funky building growing out of a hillside.
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Posted by cefinkjr on Thursday, October 5, 2006 4:38 PM

 batterymule7 wrote:
You know Chuck you are right in your earlier post about modellers doing what I call the bear minimum to model mines on their layouts.  Sure you get a few who actually know what to do but I think that it is sad that there is so much that can be done with mining scenes on layouts and so few take advantage.  Sure the tipple and loadout are the important parts but look at all the detail one can go into by modelling the shaft collar and it's associated areas, or the portal running into the mountain, with steel or timber sets protuding and trolley wire, and pipe racks and car shops for mine cars and lokies and the like.  The way I see it is that everybody models tipples and loaders, the elite really take the time to make the mine a mine and not just some funky building growing out of a hillside.

You forgot the inquisitive, mischievous kids snooping around.  (Model railroaders in the making.)  Evil [}:)]

This could probably also be said for other industries.  That's why I liked the MR series on specific industries so well.  The more information you have about whatever it is that you're modeling, the better your model of it will be.

Chuck

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Posted by batterymule7 on Thursday, October 5, 2006 9:46 PM
That is so true, and you know, there has been in the past a vast rail network associated with any underground mine, coal mines especially back in the era's most of us model.  These seem to have been grossly over looked by modellers and model makers alike.  It is a shame that in this day and age, when technology exists to make extremely small mechanisms that can pull a decent amount of cars, no one has come out with a powered mine locomotive model or cars of the small or large capacity variety other than static display models.  The solution to a low profile motor could be an HOn3 underfloor power truck or even a standard guage one with very low profile wheels and mechanism.  As far as mining plants in general as though I love mining railroads very much, they are alas not my area of expertise (due to no experience except with static hard rock relics) I have been working on a list of points that I have been considering submintting to MR going into detail on how to superdetail mining scenes in general.  It is a substantial list which I have been trying to cut down as if ever it was published it would end up being a multi part article!  Did MR ever do an industry specific on coal mining or even mining in general?
Erik Batterymule7
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Posted by coalminer3 on Friday, October 6, 2006 8:39 AM

Good Morning All:  Comments re mine motors are interesting.  How about Z scale mechanisms for power?  Just a thought - There are publications out there covering mine motors, etc., but they were all produced "back in the day."  Mechannuals (printed in the 1940s) are an example, as they had pictures, etc. of different motors.  You could spec out your motor from them.  Also, manufacturer's catalogs are another good source of information. 

In this part of the world, there were extensive batteries of coke ovens associated with many of the mines.  You can still find oven sites of you know ehere to look.  Anyway, the larry cars used at these operations were often narrow gauge.  Coke was loaded into standard gauge cars once it was ready.  In some cases this was done by hand and in other cases by conveyor. 

Batterymule raises some good point in his latest post.  What gets me is the mines on layouts where the loadout is way too small for the amount of activity portrayed.  Big buildings, itty bitty space for cars.  Of course that's not to say that some operations were not set up that way. 

Would be interested to read some of your ideas,  and with your permission, will throw two on the pile as well.  Both of these have application to modeling coal operations rather than hardrock. 

In some cases, reciprocal switching agreements applied at different mines.  For example, C&O around here switched cars to a VGN-supplied mine.  C&O would pick up MTs, supply the VGN-served mine, pull the loads and take them to VGN inetrchange.  Would be an interesting idea to model as you could do a bunch of different cars. 

Also, don't be afraid to mix and match coal cars from different lines on your trains.  Pictures form different eras will give you an idea of what the trains looked like.

work safe

P.S.  B4 I forget, those with an interest in things coal and Pa. might enjoy the book Coal and Coke In Pennsylvania.  It was produced by the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission in 1996.  Good information, lots of diagrams, equipment pictures, etc. 220+ pages with a ton of references to additional sources.

 

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Posted by cefinkjr on Friday, October 6, 2006 5:06 PM

 batterymule7 wrote:
  Did MR ever do an industry specific on coal mining or even mining in general?

Don't know about MR but Railroad Model Craftsmen did a series several years ago called "Diggin' Coal" that provided detailed information like we've been discussing here.

 coalminer3 wrote:
Also, don't be afraid to mix and match coal cars from different lines on your trains.  Pictures form different eras will give you an idea of what the trains looked like.

I wouldn't get too carried away with this sort of thing though; particularly if you model part of a very large railroad.  I remember when I was a kid (late '40s early '50s) that a hopper lettered for anything other than PRR on the Monogahela Branch (Shire Oaks to West Brownsville, PA) was pretty unusual.  Similarly, just about everything on the other side of the river was lettered P&LE and/or NYC with a smattering of other NYC subsidiaries (e.g., PMcK&Y) appearing from time to time.

The appearance of a box or refrigerator car, particularly on my side of the river (PRR), was really an event prompting all sorts of questions about why that 'special equipment' was there.  Gondolas were a pretty regular sight though.  We knew empties were headed for the Pittsburgh Steel tube mill at Allenport, PA and we would soon see them headed back to Shire Oaks and the rest of the world with a load of steel pipe.

The point of this is that your trains should reflect the traffic one would expect on the modeled part of your railroad as to both the types of cars and their ownership.

Chuck
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Posted by chestnutridge on Friday, October 6, 2006 7:25 PM
Just a quick note to all participating in this subject. One thing I've learned during my time in the prep plant as a mechanic is in real life we don't have perfect siding on our buildings, hand rails on steps are bent, legs on conveyor belts are bent, etc. Alot of these imperfections are due to human error when moving high lifts in and around the plant. Since seeing and recording these imperfections on film I'm not the perfectionist I once was. When I model an industry now I will intentionaly put imperfections into the structures. I 've visited local layouts that are very well done but looking at structures that are pristine except for weathering being applied. A couple of things I neglected to include in a previous thread regarding structures around a mine are the numerous sub-stations. Also metal racks for pipe, I & H beams and flat sheet metal. These racks are scattered around the shop area. And remember when building racks that any scrap strutural shapes will work. We normally have to dig out the correct diameter pipe from the rack with a fork lift because the pipe is mysteriously put in the wrong place by others on other shifts. A small lay down area would be another interesting detail to add. A prep plant has pumps everywhere inside and out and our laydown area has close to 30 pumps of various sizes lined up on both sides of the lay down area so high lifts or fork lifts have room to turn. I would like to see modelers in other areas of employment volunteer info as well, such as steel mills, lumber yards, etc. This is the best way to get a feel for what a modeler needs to model. Right from the horses mouth.
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Posted by batterymule7 on Monday, October 30, 2006 2:58 PM

I know I am bringing back to life an old topic but I have been at work and out of town these last few weeks so I have missed out.  By laydown area you are referring to a bone yard / equipment stock/ staging area are you not?  I guess I should differentiate between the two as our equipment area is also our bone yard, gotta love poor boy mining!

Erik Batterymule7
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Posted by chestnutridge on Tuesday, November 7, 2006 5:54 PM
I've been busy with work and yard work but I'm back. Our laydown area is a storage area for pumps, take up rollers and assorted parts for our coal screens. This is for the prep plant only. The main supply yard is for underground supplies and is also our bone yard. Our company has discovered the price of scrap steel and now scraps out alot of old mantrips and other assorted metal. So most of our boneyard is gone. Miners and shuttle cars etc. are sent out to rebuild shops and refurbished. Hope this helps. Don't go inby.
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Posted by peterjenkinson1956 on Sunday, November 12, 2006 1:31 AM

hello fello coalminers...  i have been a coalminer for over 25 years in australia...  i started work at a longwall mine in wollongong near sydney..  at the time it produced 1,600,000 tons on good clean coal..  longwall coal is usually clean enough to put straight on the boat to japan or china..  i have just finished at a mine in queensland  and it produced 6,500,000 tonnes with a longwall..  there is also a place change unit producing 650,000 tonnes...  underground transportation has been from rail transport with four wheel diesel man cars that carried 14 miners ,  special four wheel drive personnel carriers that looked like a custom made hummer to toyota land cruisers with scrubbers on the exhaust and a methane shutdown system

i helped to develop a mine in australia that had a three mile underground tunnel from pit bottom to the load out...above the mine is a winary and you cannot see any sign of the mine... very tidy

most of the mines in australia are large seams by american underground mine standards...  a seam of 8 foot is small  some mines have seams of 16  to 33 feet or more..  hope i could help   peter

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Posted by dcsunderland on Tuesday, November 14, 2006 10:07 AM
Batterymule7 where do you work?  I'm also a miner in Nevada.  I would agree with what everyone has said about mine opperations.  I've worked coal and hardrock both require alot of the same type of surface structures.  None of the hardrock mines that I have worked at had any kind of rail link  The coal mine I worked at had a silo and belt setup like described before.  We usually loaded 1 or 2,100 car trains a day. 
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Posted by batterymule7 on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 1:21 AM
I work at the Ashdown Mine up in Denio, Nv.  I started out at Queenstake, north of Elko, but tramped due to school then ended up in Denio for making money for school.  I am currently still there.  None of the mines that I have seen in Nevada have rail links to my knowledge and as far as I know, none of them use rail underground either.  We were going to in our original plan but our plans change ten times a day so we are typical carlin style truck and ramp haulage but we have a nice narrow vein so mining it should be interesting.  We just started our raise up the ore body this week.  Were do you work at?
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Posted by coalminer3 on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:31 AM

Good Morning all.

Glad to see folks are still out there.  Interesting to hear from Australia and from Batterymule as well.  I understand what you mean about plans.  We have had operations in our area that have had to close because of unexpected geology, etc. - nothing new to you, I'm sure.  IOW, if you don't like it wait a minute.

Mines around here use truck haulage, rail and some use a combination of truck/rail/and barge; again depending upon where you are.

Question to our Australian oupost; how big a longwall panel?

work safe

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Posted by dcsunderland on Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:04 PM
I work for Hecla at Ivanhoe.  I got offered a job at Ashdown but decided to stick it out with Hecla for now.  We're doing the same thing small vein mining, it's fun I like it.  Our plans change like the wind here too.
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Posted by batterymule7 on Friday, November 17, 2006 2:24 PM
A bunch of our hands came out from Hecla, one fella came out for a couple of days then went back.  They all seem to be good hands and hard workers.  Ashdown would be a heck of alot nicer if we had a jumbo some times but we seem to make do with a pair of jacklegs.
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Posted by dcsunderland on Friday, November 17, 2006 9:17 PM
Is Rudy still out there?  We've got a couple old Mercury jumbos but they are thrashed.  All of the vein mining is jacklegs, 6x9 or 8x9 headings, the haulages are 12x12.
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Posted by batterymule7 on Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:02 AM
Nah Rudy tramped.  I think he's with Dynatec now.  Our haulage way is 10x10 inside the timber sets and the raise up the ore vein is 3 compartment 5x5 jokerchutes and a 4x6 manway.  All drilling is done with jacklegs.
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Posted by dcsunderland on Monday, November 27, 2006 9:40 AM
Thats cool.  Those small headings are fun to drive.

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