Its been a while since I visited my own thread about tank cars and molasses. I do appreciate the discussion about molasses.
As Kevin may know, part of my interest in the topic is spawned by the sugar cane industry in Florida. US Sugar has a large operation south of lake Okeechobee. In our last family visit, I went to Clewiston to fan the US Sugar plant and the surrounding trains. It wasn't harvest season, so their wasn't a lot of activity that I could get close too.
Large cuts of tank cars are run out of Clewiston. A lot of them carrying liquid sugar too. I think granulated sugar gets hauled from there too. Covered hoppers. Also, its my understanding that in modern times, molasses is hauled in black tank cars and liquid sugar (generally) in white tank cars, for obvious reasons.
I think in 1975, tank cars were the predominant means to haul molassess (not just from Florida), but I also think it was the beginning of a transition to larger cars. My real question is what was the type of tank car? Were the older in the tooth 11,000 gallon cars being used or did the newer bigger cars get molassess service. Maybe a combo of both, or other types?
- Douglas
BEAUSABRE ' SeeYou190 There is also another molasses made from Sugar Beets, and just like everything made from sugar beets, it is nasty. I'm calling BS on this. Sucrose is sucrose.
'
SeeYou190 There is also another molasses made from Sugar Beets, and just like everything made from sugar beets, it is nasty.
I'm calling BS on this. Sucrose is sucrose.
From Wikipedia:
Sorry, sugar beets are nasty.
Sugar cane is magnificent, but it requires very special conditions to grow.
-Photograph by Kevin Parson
Cane sugar is awesome. I do not recall ever seeing a premium food product proclaim it was made with "pure beet sugar", but "pure cane sugar", that is something worth proclaiming.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
BEAUSABRE SeeYou190 There is also another molasses made from Sugar Beets, and just like everything made from sugar beets, it is nasty. I'm calling BS on this. Sucrose is sucrose. My dad worked as an in-house chemical engineer for the largest sweetner company in the US. They had a Cane Sugar Division (US East and Gulf Coasts), Beet Sugar Division (West Coast) and Corn Products Division (Texas and Midwest) - the later not being for domestic consumuption but as feed stock for bottlers (Coke, Pepsi, etc), food processors (General Mills, Post, Nabisco, etc). As an illustration of brand loyalty, the product from the Boston, New York and Baltimore refineries was marketed as Domino, the Philadelpiha refinery produced Franklin and the Chalmette, LA plant produced Sunny Cane. Every once and a while, the "home brand" ran short (maintenance or break downs, usually) and one of the "foreign brands" had to pinch hit. Despite the fact that it was all sucrose produced by the SAME company, customer surveys consistently showed that the home town product was viewed as being "better" than the out of town stuff! "Sell the sizzle, not the steak" Also, all refiners produced and still produce the house brand sugar (you know the "cheap brand you never heard of") for grocery chains, etc - same growers, same plants, same quality standards. Only difference is the bag it's in. Last, trace minerals in the soil can effect the sugar produced from it in ways not noticable to the home consumer. BUT, the food processors and bottlers sure know! They can effect things like foaming, exact color, mouth feel in soft drinks. Coke is famous for having the most stringent standards of all. Any can of Coke made anywhere in the world MUST be like any other! Every once and a while a batch of sugar (usually liquid sugar) would fail the tests before shipment to Coke. That was a MAJOR problem, they were a huge customer. Dad as "Special Assistant to the Vice President - Operations" aka THE trouble shooter (He told me when I was a small boy, "I find the trouble makers and then shoot them") would be on a visit to that plant ASAP to work out how to reprocess the batch so that it met standard. Some couldn't be reworked, so a new batch was made up. Was the "bad" run thrown out? HECK NO! There were plenty of other firms with lower standards that were happy to buy it, perhaps at a knock down price
I'm calling BS on this. Sucrose is sucrose. My dad worked as an in-house chemical engineer for the largest sweetner company in the US. They had a Cane Sugar Division (US East and Gulf Coasts), Beet Sugar Division (West Coast) and Corn Products Division (Texas and Midwest) - the later not being for domestic consumuption but as feed stock for bottlers (Coke, Pepsi, etc), food processors (General Mills, Post, Nabisco, etc). As an illustration of brand loyalty, the product from the Boston, New York and Baltimore refineries was marketed as Domino, the Philadelpiha refinery produced Franklin and the Chalmette, LA plant produced Sunny Cane. Every once and a while, the "home brand" ran short (maintenance or break downs, usually) and one of the "foreign brands" had to pinch hit. Despite the fact that it was all sucrose produced by the SAME company, customer surveys consistently showed that the home town product was viewed as being "better" than the out of town stuff! "Sell the sizzle, not the steak"
Also, all refiners produced and still produce the house brand sugar (you know the "cheap brand you never heard of") for grocery chains, etc - same growers, same plants, same quality standards. Only difference is the bag it's in.
Last, trace minerals in the soil can effect the sugar produced from it in ways not noticable to the home consumer. BUT, the food processors and bottlers sure know! They can effect things like foaming, exact color, mouth feel in soft drinks. Coke is famous for having the most stringent standards of all. Any can of Coke made anywhere in the world MUST be like any other! Every once and a while a batch of sugar (usually liquid sugar) would fail the tests before shipment to Coke. That was a MAJOR problem, they were a huge customer. Dad as "Special Assistant to the Vice President - Operations" aka THE trouble shooter (He told me when I was a small boy, "I find the trouble makers and then shoot them") would be on a visit to that plant ASAP to work out how to reprocess the batch so that it met standard. Some couldn't be reworked, so a new batch was made up. Was the "bad" run thrown out? HECK NO! There were plenty of other firms with lower standards that were happy to buy it, perhaps at a knock down price
I cannot help but think that someone in the beet-sugar business would have thoroughly known these things... even if his principal 'business' were in skilled and knowledgeable management of the primary 'products of the exercise'.
(Incidentally, it is at least technically possible to make the range of brown sugars by adding sugar-cane molasses back to beet sugar. I'd have been fascinated to hear your father's opinions or experience concerning that.)
(Also incidentally, I have no firsthand experience cooking with or otherwise using sugar-beet sugar, so I have no firsthand experience with whether it has 'nasty' traces of taste, poorer mouthfeel, etc. But it does not seem to me that I see gourmet or specialty brands of beet sugar prominently advertised in my local Whole Foods or on admittedly-casual views of 'baking-related' Internet sites. If indeed 'sugar is sugar' there might be as much unrecognized market potential here was there was for that equally unpalatable product paracetamol.
They would have used steel drums, as did the tomato canners for tomato paste and sauce.
SeeYou190 Did plastic food grade barrels exist in 1975?
Prob. not, but I'm sure wooden ones were used.
[/quote]
If it was American Sugar Refining (Amstar) their West Coast brand was Spreckles (which was originally owned by the family that gave us John Spreckles, who financed the San Diego & Arizona and other projects in the city of San Diego)
SeeYou190There is also another molasses made from Sugar Beets, and just like everything made from sugar beets, it is nasty.
Last, trace minerals in the soil can effect the sugar produced from it in ways not noticable to the home consumer. BUT, the food processors and bottlers sure know! They can effect things like foaming, exact color, mouth feel in soft drinks. Coke is famous for having the most stringent standards of all. Any can of Coke made anywhere in the world MUST be like any other! Every once and a while a batch of sugar (usually liquid sugar) would fail the tests before shipment to Coke. That was a MAJOR problem, they were a huge customer. Dad as "Special Assistant to the Vice President - Operations" aka THE trouble shooter (He told me when I was a small boy, "I find the trouble makers and then shoot them") would be on a visit to that plant ASAP to work out how to reprocess the batch so that it met standard. Some couldn't be reworked, so a new batch was made up. Was the "bad" run thrown out? HECK NO! There were plenty of other firms with lower standards that were happy to buy it, perhaps at a knock down price.
OvermodI have in manuscript a study involving 600-gallon Brazilian HDPE barrels in aquaculture; would that tide you over until he publishes?
Nah, it has to be molasses-related.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I have in manuscript a study involving 600-gallon Brazilian food-grade HDPE barrels in aquaculture; would that tide you over until he publishes?
SeeYou190Wow, trying to look into the history of HDPE blue food grade barrels has not been easy.
If you write a book on it, I'd probably buy one.
zugmannProb. not, but I'm sure wooden ones were used.
Wow, trying to look into the history of HDPE blue food grade barrels has not been easy.
The best I can find is that they were developed in the late 1960s and became much more popular in the late 1970s.
I cannot find any information on when certain sectors of the food industry began using them.
SeeYou190Did plastic food grade barrels exist in 1975?
zugmannBut a few years ago, they had another facility that got boxcars full of molasses barrels (may have been those big plastic totes).
I have seen molasses loaded into plastic 65 gallon drums, palletized, and loaded into boxcars in Clewiston. However, that was in the early 2000s.
Did plastic food grade barrels exist in 1975?
SeeYou190I wonder if the type of freight car would depend on the type molasses being carried?
A sweetner place we serve gets tank cars of molasses (or they used to - I'm not on that job enough to see if they still do). But a few years ago, they had another facility that got boxcars full of molasses barrels (may have been those big plastic totes). The tank cars stank, but the boxcars smelled good. So I don't know which type was which, or if it was simply a matter of quantity.
DoughlessAnswers and discussion appreciated.
I wonder if the type of freight car would depend on the type molasses being carried?
In the sugar mills in Florida (and probably in Louisiana), they produce three different kinds of molasses.
The first kind; I am not even sure if it is called mollasses; I have only heard it called Sugar Honey. This stuff is very sweet and delicious. I don't even know if you can buy it outside of South Florida, so maybe it would not be carried by train car at all. If you are ever in a country store in Moore Haven, Clewiston, South Bay, or Labelle, get some!
The second type of molasses is probably the most common type, just plain old molasses. I am pretty sure this is what is used for making Rum.
Then, there is Black Strap Molasses, which has almost all of the sugar removed, and it is very flavorful, but bitter.
Those three types are made from Sugar Cane. There is also another molasses made from Sugar Beets, and just like everything made from sugar beets, it is nasty. This stuff is not used for human consumption in the United States, but it is used for animal feed and fertilizer. This might be shipped in different freight cars. Maybe some beet molasses gets exported to countries where it is used for making rum, perhaps?
What about molasses imported from Hawaii ir Brazil? Hawaii was making sugar cane in the 1970s, and I am pretty sure Brazil was exporting by that time, maybe not to the United States yet. Would imported molasses be handled differently?
dknelsonSo those WEREN'T Tootsie Rolls after all! I thought they tasted a bit gritty.
dehusman A friend of mine worked for Conrail decades ago and they had a derailment that breached both a car of molasses and a car of carbon black.
A friend of mine worked for Conrail decades ago and they had a derailment that breached both a car of molasses and a car of carbon black.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
To be more specific. I'm looking for 1970's. American, not European. I'm aware of the 11,000 gallon tank cars being around a long time by the 1970s, and the more modern 17,600 gallon tank cars not being in service yet until 1980s, so I'm wondering if there is another small tank car that would have been used for molasses in the 1970's.
And then, there would be which of the models is the best representation.
They say you can still smell the molases on a warm day near Keany Square.
Regards, Ed
Turns out this was hashed out in these hallowed halls once before. Hope this helps Proper Tank Car for Molasses - Model Railroader Magazine - Model Railroading, Model Trains, Reviews, Track Plans, and Forums
molasses railroad cars - Bing images
Molasses by rail (trainorders.com)
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io | Molasses in Tank Cars in the 1950s
And if you wat to add some fun to your layout, you can try modeling this Railcar carrying molasses explodes in Cannon Falls, Minnesota (fox9.com)
One thing you want to include if you you are building a loading or unloading facility is to include a lurking cat patroling the area. All that sweet spillage attracts critters like mice, rats, chipmunks, etc and a feline "waiting for business" is virtually a given
Carl Shaver would have had a detailed discussion, with prototype illustrations.
The car would be restricted to 'molasses' loading, and probably in captive service.
I'd expect it to have a glass or elastomer liner. I'd also expect an insulated jacket, and steam-heating coils to facilitate unloading (only the outside fittings would 'show' on a model). If I were ordering one, it would have that funky V shape (I'm not sure what the technical term is) where the two 'halves' of the tank slant toward the center to facilitate unloading of viscous or thick material, but I don't know if those were 'mainstream' in 1975.
I'd also have longitudinal and transverse baffling, but either riveted or welded construction wouldn't show past the jacketing.
Answers and discussion appreciated.