Keep in mind my example was a local train on a branchline with (in the early sixties) an FM or Baldwin diesel, 5-6 cars, and a caboose, trundling along at around 10 MPH. Not a lot of walking for the brakeman at the end of the branch.
I will see if I can find the source of what I read about Flagmen (I think it was re the New York Central?), but my understanding was that some railroads used the term flagman, some 'second brakeman'. In any case, the source I read said of the three crewmen in the caboose (if there were three), the conductor would of course have the most seniority (being a promoted brakeman), the brakeman second, and the 'second brakeman' or flagman would be the least senior...often a newer employee 'learning the ropes' from the brakeman and conductor. If the train stopped unexpectedly and a flagman had to go out a half-mile or so back of the train (possibly in rain or snow) to ensure the rear was protected, it was a job they were going to make the least senior person do.
Railrod unions were organized by craft and not by shop.The Brotherhoos jealously guarded there perogatives. What you are suggesting is prime reason for a grievance. And it didn;t have to be the train crew that turned him in. It was not unheard of for union officials to act as spotters to make sure the separation of duties was done per the agreements. Example, my grandfather was a railroad machinist. When he needed the area around his lathe or drill press cleaned up, he had to summon a laborer (different union) to come sweep the floor rather than being able to do it himself
wrench567Still to this day there are flagmen on trains. Our local trash train uses a flagman when the train is going over the side street crossings.
The actual bulletined position of "flagman" (seperate from brakeman or conductor) hasn't been used on major railroads for over 50 years. Any flagman you see is just a brakeman or conductor performing the activities of flagging.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
When I was an apprentice oiler for the PC they were running 4 man crews but the writing was on the wall for the elimination of the fireman position. Men with years of seniority were either being forced to retire, downgrade to brakeman, or if you were connected fast tracked to engineer. The man that got me in the door was gone before I started. Railroad cops were some of the first ones on the chopping block. Having nearly thirty years in he chose early retirement. His stories were epic. My position was eliminated eight weeks after I started. I was not liked by many of the old hats who's jobs were going away. I truly simpathised with them. It wasn't a good time for many.
Flagmens main responsibility was protection for the train and would not be switching turnouts or anything that had to do with the train movement. They were there to protect the rear or front of the train. Flagmen were also used at unprotected grade crossings. Still to this day there are flagmen on trains. Our local trash train uses a flagman when the train is going over the side street crossings.
Pete.
wjstixMy guess would be the conductor would stay by the caboose, and the brakeman would walk forward to the head of the train to work that end.
I guess you know more industrious brakemen or brakemen that wanted more cardio. In my career, the brakeman I knew wanted to walk as little as possible. The caboose is the roughest riding part of the train (the reason why a trainman was four or five times more likely to be injured on a caboose than an engine.) I've been riding a caboose where we hit a mudhole in the track and the caboose bounced so hard both my feet came off the floor.
I doubt the flagman would be a newer employee. First, a flagman's job has some responsibility, doing it properly, etc. Second, while a conductor could assign which brakeman took which position, generally the senior brakeman was allowed to pick which position he wanted on the train. Usually the senior man would choose the rear end, but not always. I've read of guys who preferred the head end.
I would guess at times a clash of personalities might make a senior man want to ride the head end, and do any work enroute.
Jeff
Keep in mind with short trains, it would not be hard for the brakeman and conductor to handle throwing switches etc. by themselves. My guess would be the conductor would stay by the caboose, and the brakeman would walk forward to the head of the train to work that end. The conductor would have worked many years as a brakeman before being promoted afterall.
I do seem to recall reading that in the 1940s and earlier, some large railroads (like New York Central IIRC) on their mainline trains used a six-man crew: engineer, fireman and head-end brakeman in the engine, and conductor, rear brakeman, and flagman in the caboose. The flagman was generally a relatively newly-hired brakeman.
Of course, in the 19th century - before air brakes - trains used a number of brakemen so they could manually walk the roofwalks and turn the brakewheels of the cars when needed.
wjstix I lived across the street from a branchline of a small (but very busy) shortline from 1958 to 2006. As far as I can recall, the trains always had a four man crew - engineer and fireman in the engine, conductor and brakeman in the caboose. Since these were normally short trains (less than 10 cars) one brakemen would suffice, but I assume the fireman (who didn't have that much to do since these were diesels) would sometimes throw a switch if needed. There were/are several businesses at the end of the branch, and regardless of union rules, I think their prime concern was to get their work done as quickly as possible so they had more time to walk across the street to Diamond Lake Lanes bowling center to have lunch before starting back down the branch.
I lived across the street from a branchline of a small (but very busy) shortline from 1958 to 2006. As far as I can recall, the trains always had a four man crew - engineer and fireman in the engine, conductor and brakeman in the caboose. Since these were normally short trains (less than 10 cars) one brakemen would suffice, but I assume the fireman (who didn't have that much to do since these were diesels) would sometimes throw a switch if needed. There were/are several businesses at the end of the branch, and regardless of union rules, I think their prime concern was to get their work done as quickly as possible so they had more time to walk across the street to Diamond Lake Lanes bowling center to have lunch before starting back down the branch.
This is what I wondered early about whether the fireman might do double duty as the head brakeman. On a branchline peddler freight, it seems like the common sense thing to do even if it bumped up against union rules.
I remember when I was right out of high school I took a job on the loading dock of a department store. It was the first union job I held. We unloaded lots of trucks from various companies. I remember a truck driver telling me that technically it was against his union's rules for us to go onto the truck to remove freight and against our union's rules for him to move freight onto our dock. He said the union bosses would argue that we were putting a middle man out of a job. Of course he didn't make an issue of it and we continued to move freight off the truck. I would suspect there are a lot of violations of labor agreements such as this that go by the wayside our of convenience.
The CN runs a local (L556) with a loco on each end, makes daily runs from Wisconsin Rapids to Greenbay, WI., and usually stops in Neenah, WI to do work, and then on to Greenbay. Each loco has a crew member.
I believe it originates in Greenbay.
Mike.
My You Tube
Having a locomotive on both ends of the train also means that you can switch every customer in either direction regardless of which way their switch faces, without the need to perform a drop/flying switch/running switch, a practice that is now prohibited on many railroads.
Greetings from Alberta
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John-NYBWThe daily Ohio Central branchline train from Newark, OH to Mt. Vernon, Oh has started putting a loco on both ends.
The locomotive on both ends thing wasn't as popular before the megamergers that idled thousands of engines and flooded the used locomotive market with power.
Prior to that it would have been too expensive to have two engines on a train, it would have been cheaper to have a switch and maintain it than have two engines. After used engines became a dime a dozen, putting two engines on the train became cheaper than maintaining a switch. By the time I retired, the number of engines wasn't even really a factor in calculating delay costs because there were so many surplus engines there was no real cost to delaying an engine.
SD70Dude There might have been rules around this but in reality the crew would probably end up doing whatever was easiest.
There might have been rules around this but in reality the crew would probably end up doing whatever was easiest.
This isn't pertinent to the original question but does illustrate the above point. The daily Ohio Central branchline train from Newark, OH to Mt. Vernon, Oh has started putting a loco on both ends. Typically I see this train with 8-12 cars. There's no place to turn a loco in Mt. Vernon and having a loco at each end means they don't have to do a run around and run it backwards on the return trip. I see a variety of locos on that train which tells me they just use whatever is available. The roundtrip is less than 50 miles.
The rear brakeman also was the flag man. Unless otherwise relieved for providing flag protection, he would be out flagging when the train stopped.
That being said, a short line with or without a union contract might only have one brakeman. Especially if it's a one train a day outfit.
Former interurbans that switched to other forms of motive power may only have had one brakeman. A legacy contract when it was an electric operation.
The class ones were allowed, after 1964, to blank out a second brakeman* on branch line trains, even if they worked over a portion of a main line.
*If any trainman working when the agreement was signed had no other assignment available, he could fill the blanked 2nd brakeman,s position. Anyone hired after the signing date could not.
And yet those examples happened, and to some degree similar things continue to happen.
I'll bet there were a lot more instances that we just don't know about because nothing happened.
It's sort of like the older question of where to put the combine or caboose in the train (and do they have to be next to each other?). There might have been rules around this but in reality the crew would probably end up doing whatever was easiest.
SD70DudeDave, you seem to be under the impression that every single employee obeyed every single rule and regulation 100% of the time, and were always where they should be.
Oh heck no. I was a a railroad operating officer for 37 years. I have held enough investigations, and taken enough accident reports to know that isn't true at all.
That's why one of the leading causes of train derailments and accidents is human causes.
He was the head-end brakeman, yet the conductor specifically told him to ride in the caboose for part of the trip (both for a lemonade break and because of where he would be needed for upcoming switching moves),
And the reason he had toTELL him to ride the caboose was because his normal position was on the head end.
For the opposite, another frequent poster in the 'String Lining' thread once told a story about how the conductor had his train make a blind shoving movement to quickly and easily get the entire crew on the head end, again to facilitate upcoming switching moves. He lit a red fusee and stuck it on the rear of the caboose to 'protect' the shove (safety first, right?), only for the fusee to fall onto a wood trestle and burn it down.
Yes crews do things that are against the rules and many times they end up badly. But the question wasn't "how do I model not doing things right?"
My last paragraph was, "Quite frankly it doesn't matter whether its hot or cramped or if he's lonely or whatever. His job is on the head end and if he's not the fireman has to do the brakeman's job which means the engineer has to do the fireman's job, or else under the right circumstances everybody gets fired."
And that's EXACTLY what all of your examples illustrate, in the best case the other crew members ended up doing the head brakeman's job and in the worst case the crews did something stupid and ended up fired (risking property damage and injury).
Dave, you seem to be under the impression that every single employee obeyed every single rule and regulation 100% of the time, and were always where they should be.
For some examples of what I was talking about, 'Classic Trains' had an article a few years ago written by a new brakeman working a C&NW branchline turn job. He was the head-end brakeman, yet the conductor specifically told him to ride in the caboose for part of the trip (both for a lemonade break and because of where he would be needed for upcoming switching moves), and when they returned to the yard the engineer and fireman put the engine away by themselves, with the fireman lining a few switches as required.
Another story from the diesel era (can't quite remember where I read this one, probably in one of the magazines) involves the engine crew blocking the dead man pedal and leaving the engine in low throttle as the train rolled along a relatively flat stretch of track, and then everyone hopped off and got on the caboose for a coffee break and card game (this was on a branchline with bad track and a very low speed limit). When break time was over they would stop the train with the conductor's brake valve and the head end crew would walk up to the engine. They eventually got caught when a farmer or his wife reported seeing the train rolling along with no one in the locomotive cab.
It amazes me how people seem to be trying to find every reason why the head end brakeman wouldn't be on the head end.
Quite frankly it doesn't matter whether its hot or cramped or if he's lonely or whatever. His job is on the head end and if he's not the fireman has to do the brakeman's job which means the engineer has to do the fireman's job, or else under the right circumstances everybody gets fired.
The only single-person yard crews we have are beltpack hump jobs.
Extra brakemen on freight or mixed trains would most likely ride in the caboose until they were needed, and the 'head end' brakeman might ride there as well if they had a short train, were shoving backward, or if he simply wanted a break from riding in the hot, cramped engine. If needed he could always get back to the head end by going 'over the top'.
RCL crews also are sometimes Foreman only.
Sometimes a utility would be added, but not always.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
5 man crews : Engineer, fireman, conductor, head brakeman, rear brakeman
4 man crews : Engineer, conductor, head brakeman, rear brakeman
3 man crews : Engineer, conductor, brakeman
2 man crews : Engineer, conductor
RCL crews : Foreman, switchman
1 man crews : Engineer
Unmanned trains : Black box
The last two are possible, but haven't been implemented to any large extent in N America due to regulatory and labor contract restrictions.
Talking about real world train crews, what was the next evolution after 4 man crews?
My favorite movie which I watch annually. Every crew member shown was integral to the story in varying degrees. The 5th crew member was not part of the story so he was omitted.
John-NYBWA short time ago I think I read that on very long trains there might be a middle brakeman. I'm curious whether he would have rode on or inside a freight car.
Either the head end or the rear end. Most of the extra brakemen went away around WW1 when air brakes were standard. About the only place they used extra brakemen were in heavy grade territories where retainers had to be set or hand brakes set if the air brakes failed.
Some agreements also had a 6th man, engineer, fireman, conductor, head end brakeman, rear end brakeman, flagman. The designation "head" and "rear" were only descriptive and any of the trainmen (conductor, brakeman, flagmen) could have ridden either end, all could do exactly the same work. Generally the lowest seniority man on the train crew was the head brakeman because they did the most work (as I said before, lining switches and doing set outs and pick ups.)
The last railroads that had "middle brakemen" that I encountered were the Mexican roads in the 1980's that were required to operate with a 5 main crew plus another brakeman for every 25 cars over 50 or 75 cars, can't remember which. It was an issue because the US raods wanted to increase the size of grain trains to Mexico, but they were against it because they would have had to add another brakeman.
John-NYBWIt certainly would have been feasible for the rear brakeman to work both ends of the train. I wondered if agreements at the time would have allowed either the conductor or fireman to do double duty as the front brakeman.
Standard crew agreements would have required a head end brakeman. If it were limited to a 4 man crew (Engineer, fireman, conductor, brakeman, which wasn't a standard crew until the 1980's) the brakeman would STILL be on the head end. The brakeman would have to be a total idiot to ride on the caboose and walk the length of the train EVERY time the train had to do work or go in or out of a siding.
It's a movie, its a piece of fiction. A real train would have AT LEAST 5 men on it in the depression era. By the labor contract.
My grandfaher was a railroad machinist from the Teens to the Fifties. He was not allowed to sweep up the shavings and other debris caused by operating a lathe, milling machine, etc. even when it impeded his work. He had to stop what he ewas doing and summon a roundhouse laborer to do it. Seperate union, seperate job description. seperate duties. Railroads were notorious for being strictly organized by craft and not shop - and the unions jealously guarded and fought over their privileges.
A short time ago I think I read that on very long trains there might be a middle brakeman. I'm curious whether he would have rode on or inside a freight car.
In the movie, I believe it was a fairly short train. In the climactic scene, Ernest Borgnine and Lee Marvin engaged in a fight to the death on the top of the cars. As I recall, they came at each other from opposite ends of the train.
It certainly would have been feasible for the rear brakeman to work both ends of the train. I wondered if agreements at the time would have allowed either the conductor or fireman to do double duty as the front brakeman.
Hi John.
It would depend on several factors. Length of train and agreement between railroad and unions. If the train was short enough to see the locomotive from the coupala of the caboose then the rear brakeman would be satisfactory. Union agreements varied between railroads on job responsibilities. As an oiler apprentice in 1976 I was not allowed to do other things that were not on the job roster. Even simple things such as replacing a burnt out light. We would have to get an electrician for that. You didn't want to create a grievance with another union.
I haven't seen that movie in about thirty years. Wasn't it set in the depression era? Layoffs could also have been a factor in short crew size. But then it was a movie.