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Ask MR Whistle signals question

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Ask MR Whistle signals question
Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 6, 2022 7:19 PM

In the May 2022 MR, there was a question on whistle signals when the engine was running backwards.  The answer probably needs some clarification.

The question was "Would that engine crew have been expected to he locomotive's direction "Moving in Reverse" (o-o-o) or indicate the train's direction "Moving forward" (o-o)?

First there is a possibly a misunderstanding on the whistle signals.  For the whistle signals that the engine would make, "o-o" doesn't mean "going forward".

Under the majority of steam era rule books I have, rule 14 (g) "o-o" is a generic answer to any signal, not that the train is going forward.  And "o-o-o", when standing, is that the train is going to back up.  If the train is moving it is an answer to signal 16(d) stop at the next station.

Generally, when switching the signals used are in relation to the position of the engine because the switcher doesn't have a "direction", only an engine so everything is in relation to the engine.  A train , on the other hand has a specified direction, so movement is in relation to the direction in which the train is authorized to move.  If the train is an eastward train and signalled to move westward, it is backing up and would give the back up "whistle signal", regardless of which way the engine is facing. 

 

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by PM Railfan on Wednesday, April 6, 2022 11:06 PM

' First there is a possibly a misunderstanding on the whistle signals.  For the whistle signals that the engine would make, "o-o" doesn't mean "going forward".

Under the majority of steam era rule books I have, rule 14 (g) "o-o" is a generic answer to any signal, not that the train is going forward. '

 

Wow. Thats very dangerous.

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, April 7, 2022 12:34 AM

PM Railfan
Wow. Thats very dangerous.

What's dangerous?

That two short whistles means "I recieved your signal" or that a railfan thinks it means "go forward"?

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, April 7, 2022 9:05 AM

According to the General Code of Operating Rules, two LONG horn or whistle blasts means 'release brakes, proceed' which in practice is used only when the engine is about to go forward from a stopped state. (Three short blasts means 'when stopped, backing up'.)

Two SHORT blasts is a general acknowledgement of any signal not otherwise provided for.

https://www.trains.com/trn/train-basics/abcs-of-railroading/whistle-signals/

When about to go forward, the two long blasts are usually done fairly rapidly and of short duration, so it does often sound like two shorts.

Stix
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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, April 7, 2022 9:50 AM

Any way you cut it, it was a less than stellar answer to the question.  

When switching the engine generally doesn't use whistle signals to indicate changes in direction and on a train the direction is the direction of the train, not the engine.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, April 7, 2022 9:59 AM

dehusman
and on a train the direction is the direction of the train, not the engine.

That's def'n not settled science.  Around these parts, many use the direction of the engine.  

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, April 7, 2022 11:59 AM

Two long whistle blasts under the GCOR is "release brakes. proceed".  It doesn't say go forward or backward.  It says proceed.  The question is, what direction is the train authorized to proceed? A reverse move or backing up is a movement in the direction opposite you were authorized to proceed.  Doesn't matter what direction the engine is pointed.  If a train is authorized to proceed from Anna to Fay, then if the train is going to "proceed" its going in the direction to Fay.  If its making a reverse move, its going toward Anna.  Doesn't matter what direction the engine is pointed.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, April 7, 2022 12:11 PM

What if I have a work between?

Two words to never use on a railroad:  always and never. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Attuvian1 on Thursday, April 7, 2022 7:15 PM

I ain't quibbling about Dave's answers.  Mine was settled right away: I was wondering who Mr. Whistle was!  Laugh

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Posted by OldEngineman on Thursday, April 7, 2022 9:44 PM

The whistle signals are "still in the book", and crew members will know them, but many simply aren't used any more. At least not often.

Reason: radio procedures, and the fact that many railroads now require radio acknowledgement when a signal is given to the engineer.

Example: Amtrak train stopped at Stamford (CT) station. Conductor radios engineer to proceed. Engineer is required to acknowledge over radio AND relay to conductor the name of signals ahead. Such as, "178, roger, proceed cab".

Also in freight. Conductor will radio engineer to back up for a hitch, engineer may now be required to repeat number of car lengths back to conductor as acknowledgement. Three toots on the horn won't do it any more...

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, April 8, 2022 12:32 AM

We're still allowed to use hand signals.  Of course that's not always possible.  Even when it is a lot of the newer people always seem to use the radio.  The rules still say that radio can be used instead of hand signals.  Not the other way around.

Jeff

 

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, April 8, 2022 9:26 AM

zugmann
 
dehusman
and on a train the direction is the direction of the train, not the engine.

 

That's def'n not settled science.  Around these parts, many use the direction of the engine.  

 
It seems to me MR or one of the other magazines discussed this same question about a decade ago, and at that time the answer was that forward or backwards was determined by the engine, not the train. So a diesel or electric engine has an "F" painted on the end that is the "Front". If the engine is moving in the direction of the F, it's going forward. Going the other way is backing up. All regardless of whether there's a train behind the engine, or a cut of freight cars being switched in front of it.
 
I've never seen any reference saying that two long horn blasts means "the standing train or engine is going to move, but nobody knows which direction, guess we'll have to see when it happens". I have seen dozens and dozens of references going back decades saying that two longs means a stopped train is going to go forward, three shorts means it's going to back up. That's not something railfans or model railroaders just made up for some reason.
Stix
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Posted by wjstix on Friday, April 8, 2022 9:58 AM

dehusman
Two long whistle blasts under the GCOR is "release brakes. proceed". It doesn't say go forward or backward. It says proceed.

In the Oxford English dictionary, "proceed" is defined as meaning "move forward, especially after reaching a certain point."

Merriam-Webster dictionary says it means "to go forward or onward: advance."

So it appears you can't proceed backwards, only forwards.

Stix
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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, April 8, 2022 11:17 AM

wjstix

 

 
dehusman
Two long whistle blasts under the GCOR is "release brakes. proceed". It doesn't say go forward or backward. It says proceed.

 

In the Oxford English dictionary, "proceed" is defined as meaning "move forward, especially after reaching a certain point."

Merriam-Webster dictionary says it means "to go forward or onward: advance."

So it appears you can't proceed backwards, only forwards.

 

Train No 1 is authorized from A to Z in a westward direction.  Today's train has an engine with the designated F end racing eastward.

It's time to go and whistle off.  Two questions.  A. What hand signal does the conductor give to the engineer?  B.  What whistle/horn signal does the engineer sound?

I'm with Dave.  In this case the direction of the engine is immaterial.  The train is authorized to proceed in one direction.  The proper signals are A, to proceed and B two longs.

If the train stops at an intermediate point to do switching, then while doing the switching the direction of the engine would matter.  Then the engine itself and not the train is the reference point for giving signals. 

Actually, if the switching is being done with hand signals during daylight, the direction of the engine might not matter.  We use hand signals for "come towards me" and "go away from me." The engine direction doesn't matter.  They aren't in the rule book, our rule book has a lot less codified signals than previous older codes, but nonsanctioned signals are allowed as long as everyone involved understands them.

Jeff   

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 8, 2022 12:12 PM

I wonder if part of the 'confusion' derives from the use of signal whistles in passenger service, where the conductor might sound two short 'peeps' and receive a snappy (and relatively quiet) double-tap in reply.  That would be distinct by context from other uses of long and short blasts.

When I went through the Enola shop in 1974, I was privileged to observe a PC employee running an ex-PRR Gradall.  He was running the machine forward and backward as he worked, and was blowing the truck's air horn: one short blast every time he stopped, two short blasts when he was moving the chassis forward, and three short blasts when reversing.  This was probably admonitory only.

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Posted by dehusman on Friday, April 8, 2022 12:44 PM

Whistle signals are rule 14 (train/engine to the rest of the world) and communicating signals are rule 16 (conductor/train to engineer/engine).  

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, April 14, 2022 8:53 AM

I suppose if you had a situation in pre-radio days where the conductor gave a hand / lantern 'highball' signal to the engineer of a standing train, and the engineer blows the whistle twice and starts the train, it could be hard to tell if he's blowing two shorts to acknowledge the 'highball' from the conductor, or two longs for releasing brakes and proceeding. I guess it kinda works out the same either way in that situation.

Stix

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