I was getting ready to start detailing a pair of Athearn BB GP40-2s I've had laying around for years and looking over what I have to do to them. There's the old footboards to cut off, the class lights to shave off, and so on. One of the things on the shells are something that are mysterious to me.
What are these two circles? I know the lower set is the blanked out class lights, but the upper pair is a mystery to me. They're gone on my prototype (high hood end is rebuilt and smooth, no plated over lights), so they're getting shaved off too, but I want to know what I'm shaving off.
I recall asking this to someone familiar with locomotive repair and was told that they were access holes to get to fittings on the vent lines to the radiators located behind them.
Just what I was told, can't verify this at the moment.
https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Locomotive-Details/SD40-2s/i-d4vJCKC/A
Regards, Ed
Those are marker light (class lights as some call them) punchouts. When making the body panels EMD, much like other manufacturers (auto, truck, plane), these were just options. As in, do you, the railroad, want your markers up high? Or mid section height. Or in this case - not at all. But the holes are there if you change your mind!
Southern might have opted not to use them (as in your picture) but another railroad having the same type loco might have. Much like the auto industry (especially GM which EMD was a part of) alot of car models can transpose to 'other' makers frames. Chevy to Pontiac, Buick to Olds, Olds back to Chevy again.
(You cant really do Chevy to Ford per se, thats like EMD to Alco. But within the models of the same company, capice?)
ie: You can take any part off of a 1979 Trans Am lets say, and directly bolt it on to a 1978 Camero. They fit perfectly. One car might not have A/C - its an option. But the bolt holes to attach an A/C is there because other cars in the line did have A/C. Take the A/C off that Camero and put it on the T/A. There are'punch out' holes (one actually) in the firewall to run the new a/c lines which is blocked off from the factory since it didnt come with a/c originally.
Never heard they are access ports to radiator parts as some diesels dont have these punch outs. But all diesels have radiators. Which, from the times ive been under the hood of a EMD, can be accessed through the side doors. I think some folks might 'appropriate' them as such.... Being a mechanic myself, sometimes you dont change the part from under the hood if you can reach it better through the wheel-well.
You will also notice they conveniently match the shape and size perfectly to marker lights. And I bet you can even swap the covers between holes.
Ed: Those were some excellent shots of a diesel teardown! Nice link!
Cheers!
PMR
PM RailfanAs in, do you, the railroad, want your markers up high? Or mid section height. Or in this case - not at all. But the holes are there if you change your mind!
I respectfully stand by my first reply.
High mounted class lights? If you look at the photo of the UP 3192 you will see a small bent-rod lever at the 6 o'clock point on the class/marker light. This lever will select the red or green roundel as needed. Centered is no roundel or white light.
So if the light fixture is mounted high I don't see how a crew member could reach the right-hand upper location (the left has the ladder) to access the lever.
I still believe the "ports" are to access radiator fittings prior to lifting the radiator assembly off the deck.
gmpullman I respectfully stand by my first reply.
What do ya think Ed? Bet ya a glazed doughnut (breakfast time here) they are light holes! Better yet, ill make you a deal... if they are maintenance holes - ill tell ya all my secrets on 3d printing. If they are light holes... you gotta tell me your scenery and picture taking secrets.... deal? And well take your and my , put it in a beer n pizza collection aye?
Douglas
PM Railfan What do ya think Ed? Bet ya a glazed doughnut (breakfast time here) they are light holes! Better yet, ill make you a deal... if they are maintenance holes - ill tell ya all my secrets on 3d printing. If they are light holes... you gotta tell me your scenery and picture taking secrets.... deal?
What do ya think Ed? Bet ya a glazed doughnut (breakfast time here) they are light holes! Better yet, ill make you a deal... if they are maintenance holes - ill tell ya all my secrets on 3d printing. If they are light holes... you gotta tell me your scenery and picture taking secrets.... deal?
Rich
Alton Junction
If I remember correctly, these locomotives have a 'dry radiator' setup that runs equalized to atmospheric pressure and hence has 'breathers' to the atmosphere, outside the engine compartment. It is my understanding that the upper ports on the long hood access those.
It does make sense that any forming dies, attachment hardware, blanking plates etc. would be common between these and the lower 'reverse light' holes.
What did Canadian EMD/GMD locomotives use for class lights in the days the Canadian three-color system was in force? (Alco/MLW famously had the three little lights in a row for this...)
Whew, Douglas! Lots to digest there especially the beer and pizza part.
I guess a tie-breaker would be to find a photo of a GP or SD 40-50-2 with high class lights on the long hood?
My understanding is that in order to lift the radiator assembly out of the hood the two vent lines (26) have to be disconnected.
EMD_SD-radiator by Edmund, on Flickr
Generally this work would be done in a shop where scaffolding and ladders would be at hand.
I'm wondering, too. Why would EMD offer high class lights on the long hood but not on the short hood?
3D printing? At first I was just tossing the idea around but I really didn't have a need. NOW my six PRR Congressional parlor cars need seats and there ain't no such animal out there!
That pizza sure will taste good. No fish bait on mine, please
Cheers, Ed
Oh, yeah, I forgot.
If these are supposed to be high-mounted class light holes, there should be counterparts on high short hoods too. I look forward to PM Railfan showing pictures of these.
(I would also note on general principles that there would be nothing objectively wrong with removing some kind of class-light assembly to access vent pipe 26 fittings instead of just a blanking door, so it isn't necessarily an either/or situation...)
Overmod(I would also note on general principles that there would be nothing objectively wrong with removing some kind of class-light assembly to access vent pipe 26 fittings —
Aah, but now you involve another craft. Gee boss, I'd like to get started on that radiator job. Waitin' on the electrician. Think I'll get another cup of coffee.
gmpullmanAah, but now you involve another craft. Gee boss, I'd like to get started on that radiator job. Waitin' on the electrician. Think I'll get another cup of coffee
Do you need an electrician to unship a sealed light enclosure without disconnecting its connection? Seems like an issue for negotiations...
Ed: the only tie breakers i could find were a bad pic of NS 7079, and a pic of ex-B&M GP-40 with 4 long hood lights. I have a pic my self that i took in the 90s of SR 4610 with high mounted punchouts on the long hood only. If this loco were to ever have any lights at all, theyd have to be high up - or cut some holes.
To get back to the original post, he wanted to shave these off anyways. That would be ok, there are many units out there with no 'holes' (high or low) on the long hood end. Which kinda makes me wonder how youd access the radiator fittings if there was no hole to begin with. (see third link)
(hope these work...)
https://fineartamerica.com/featured/ns-7079-longhood-forward-joseph-johns.html
http://railroadstrains.blogspot.com/2013/06/ (goto bottom of page)
http://www.iaisrailfans.org/gallery/PhaseIV/iais_151_moscow_ia_14_oct_2008_000?full=1&returnwiki=PaintSchemes
I dont do seafood of any kind, so no worrys there! 3d seats would be no problem. However, if thats pretty much the only reason for it... it'd be a fraction of the cost just to replicate those using resin molding.
All the Best!
Edit: NJ transit 4100 class has high mounted lights on the long hood. And am not sure but I think CN gp40-2w's and their 9600 class locos have them too. Just need to find a pic.
Linked picture #1 just shows snow or frost blown up onto the access plate. Nothing there.
#2 is a different class of locomotive, and might have different room inside the long-hood nose for access.
#3 is going to require an inquiry to IAIS regarding how they handle the breathers when servicing radiators. My guess is to send someone comparatively thin and low-seniority up on the inside...
Still have not seen evidence of high-mounted class lights on high short hoods of SD40s. Where is that ex-B&M GP40 picture?
Overmod Still have not seen evidence of high-mounted class lights on high short hoods of SD40s.
Still have not seen evidence of high-mounted class lights on high short hoods of SD40s.
Thats because there prolly arent any, SR and N&W ran long hood forward. Why would they need that option? The question is - are they holes access ports for radiators or are they for lights? Radiators are in the long hood. Steam generators and toilet are in the short hood. Were on long hoods here.
Overmod Where is that ex-B&M GP40 picture?
Where is that ex-B&M GP40 picture?
Bottom of the page for the link posted. I dont get the same menu options (add link, add pic, etc) when posting as most of you do, so i have to post links manually. Sometimes i cant get a clear url link to a pic to post here.
richhotrainOh boy, this is gonna be fun. I just finished making my popcorn, and the butter is being melted on the stove. Let's get ready to rumble!
Doesn't look like I missed too much of this, I'll get us drink, and join you!
Mike.
My You Tube
PM RailfanSometimes i cant get a clear url link to a pic to post here.
The point about high-mounted class lights is that both ends of a nominally bidirectional engine would have them -- you see low ones in pairs in the 'other' set of holes. What we see in the great majority of these shots is high-mounted holes where the radiator-breather access would be, and no holes at all on the corresponding area of the short hood.
What I'm wondering now is if the 'high-mounted lights' are from the same general era that SP was putting lights of all sorts of description on its power. The FRA famously ended that party by passing a regulation that any 'additional' lighting had to work exactly as if mandated -- railroads deciding to 'double up' by putting class or reverse lights in those upper holes to exploit their being there for radiator access might find the experiment no longer as fun in that 'new era' and go back to plain covers again. This might be trackable with reference to something like rrpictures "rosters" that have a large number of images of the same unit over time.
Those circles are also present on SD70 and 70M-2s as well, going form a couple photos I looked up.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I have to say that I didn't expect this question to be so, uh, unclear.
This picture implies to me that there's something about them that gives them utility beyond being a plate for a non-existent light: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3828287
They remained after the old lights were completely deleted. Stands to reason that if they were blanked out lights, that they'd be removed along with the other lights.
Now, my prototype is a GP40-3 and lacks the circles (but the end was rebuilt anyhow):
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3552198
It was rebuilt from a straight GP40, originally delivered as Western Pacific 3502. I was under the impression than a 40 and 40-2 were largely electrical differences that produced little in the way of physical, external differences.
I could find one poor quality image of WP 3502, but there's enough of her sisters. Here, WP 3518 lacks the circles altogether.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2331291
This seems more curious to me, that whatever their purpose was, they weren't present on the straight GP40s.
gmpullman wrote: "High mounted class lights? If you look at the photo of the UP 3192 you will see a small bent-rod lever at the 6 o'clock point on the class/marker light. This lever will select the red or green roundel as needed. Centered is no roundel or white light."
PM Railfan is correct.
By the time GP40-2's and other EMDs were being built, the only "color" of the class light normally displayed would be red.
Indeed, they weren't really "class lights" any more. They were now just "markers" to be turned on when the loco was at the end of the train or rear unit while running light. As such, no need "to climb up there and change the colors", because on most railroads there was only ONE color left to display.
If a railroad still wanted multiple lenses, they could order them mid-height...
OldEnginemanPM Railfan is correct.
I'll still buy him his favorite donuts
Don Strack that hosts the Utah Rails website has this caption accompanying his photo of UP 3192 :
sd40-2knockouts_jan-1974.jpg
gmpullman OldEngineman PM Railfan is correct. Don Strack that hosts the Utah Rails website has this caption accompanying his photo of UP 3192 : sd40-2knockouts_jan-1974.jpg Radiator access covers. Contrary to popular belief, these are not alternate locations for the classification lights. The covers allowed access to the radiator breather pipes, which had to be removed before the radiators could be removed. (Don Strack Photo) I believe Don Strack has a high regard for accuracy on his site.
OldEngineman PM Railfan is correct.
It wasnt my intent of whos right or wrong when i first replied. Ed simply stated a purpose that i had never heard before that quite frankly didnt equal what i have understood to be the reason for these 'mysterious holes' high up on the long hood. Pretty much - to learn something for the day.
I have no doubt in my mind Ed's offering of Mr. Strack's work, that it is correct and true - these are access ports. I have stated previously that being a mechanic myself, very familier with GM and EMD products, darn if i wouldnt grab a ladder, pop out that cover OR light (which ever is there) and reach in and grab me a whole handful of radiator fittings if it got the job done. ( if the hole wasnt there, then like a mechanic, id be cussing the EMD designer for NOT putting one there!)
At the same time, I myself have offered links to pics of these high up long hood 'holes' that have pretty lil lights in them. It isnt ironic or coincidence the 'holes' match perfectly the size and shape of class/marker lights nor that we should see them used as such.
I am willing to submit.... in this case.... that these high, long hood mounted 'holes' exist for "both" reasons at the same time. And why not? Knowing GM like I do (of which we ALL know EMD was just another part of...) I am well aware of their design ideas that maximize space and utilization. Ergo - "Why make 2 holes for two similar reasons when one slightly larger hole will do for both."
Its no stretch of the imagination one of EMDs designers noticed "Hey, if we put a hole here... the mechanics can reach this blah blah, and lets make it aesthetic aswell by matching and already existing template on the shop floor for a class light if the railroad would rather have a light there. .... By the way we can list it as an option, and do nothing." And to be honest - its 20 minutes or less to remove either a light, OR cover to get to that radiator. Totally doable!
So, both reasons are viable. And along with Ed, Imma sit back and wait until an EMD design engineer happens along who might happen to join this post and relay his insight on the subject. The original poster asked a pretty good question in my opinion.
NittanyLion I have to say that I didn't expect this question to be so, uh, unclear.
- NEVER toss down the gauntlet of 'question' before a pack of Railfans! -
Well,
That leaves just one really good question to be answered... 'why no high mounted "holes" on a high nosed short end'. Its all good speculation until that EMD guy shows up but im willing to bet it has something to do with this...
When these units were built it was SR and N&W, not NS. Prior to this merger, the two former roads were notorious as "long hood forward" roads. There were others but these two were major class 1's. A high nose on the short hood is also an 'option' from EMD - just like the class/marker lights were. True other roads had the high short hood but SR and N&W were rife with them.
Being that diesels on these 2 lines rarely worked the main alone, and were almost always coupled long hoods out, its pretty rare you would see the short hood lights thus not much in the way of indicational signals to crews. Why pay for that option of adding extra holes if they wont really be used. EMD molds already had the low holes cut in them for low nose.
In essence, in our model railroading minds you think if they are on the long hood theyd match the short hood. In the $ and cents world of econimical railroading, you just dont pay the extra expense for something your not gonna need. If the railroad isnt gonna order it, why should EMD even waste the time thinking about it?
If SR and N&W had been short hood forward roads, with high hoods, i suspect wed see those high holes on the short hood. As for the roads who did run short, high hood forward with no high holes? Thats the REAL question to answer. In the meantime, along with Ed, im gonna wait on that EMD guy to show up. Then we'll know.
zugmann Those circles are also present on SD70 and 70M-2s as well, going form a couple photos I looked up.
Well huh. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1309588
(1) He may be a mechanic; he may even have experience working as an EMD mechanic ... but Ed, how long would he last in a union shop with that attitude toward brother crafts??? (And this after you already got ME on the same point of order!)
(2)
PM RailfanEMD molds already had the low holes cut in them for low nose.
Model Railfan Detected!
Never bet against Ed.
gpullman knows everything worth knowing.
In the latest MRVP video, Cody calls these classification lights
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
In contrast to the high regard most of you have toward Cody......he's not perfect!
oldline1
There are no radiator pipes or vent pipes there. The only coolong system vent on an EMD is the pressure cap on top of the expansion tank. There is no piping that can be accessed through those openings and even if there was removing and re-installing the little covers would be a pain especially if the rubber gasket material was hardened.
Sometimes the headlight resitors are back there but are usually accessed from the air comressor area above the rear sandbox. again, removing and re-installing the rubber gaskets would at least prevent me from removing them.
Again, there is nothing behind those caps, I don't know why they are there but perhaps they are the EMD equivelant of a human appendix.
This has been a most interesting thread, but it poses a question to which there has been no definitive answer. I think that it would be worthwhile to repost this thread on the Trains Forum. There is a lot of expertise there, and one of the regulars may have the answer that we are looking for.
From time to time, I have searched Google Images and come up with nothing. I find very few photos of the round cover plates, and I find no photos of marker lights.
Randy, with all due respect, your reply does not provide a possible answer. Your personal opinion is that they are vent covers, but you offer no evidence or proof to support your opinion.
The link that Ed provided shows some apparent visual support for vents. Those round covers are open, as if someone is doing maintenance through access ports.
There has to be an answer out there somewhere. I would start with the Trains Forum.