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Modeling the Flame From A Flare Stack

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Posted by caldreamer on Tuesday, August 14, 2018 8:34 PM

Here is a picture of my refinery.  The flare stack is  near the front of the picture with black smoke rising above the flare stack

/tmp/shotwell-52HQNt/100_430.MOV

 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, August 4, 2018 10:29 PM

Kind of a weird solution, but it might work...

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Armorcast makes resin castings of various "Cinematic Effects" for wargaming miniatures. One of them is rocket launchers at the moment of firing.

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These might work for the flame, but there would be no animation.

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-Kevin

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Living the dream.

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Posted by NWP SWP on Saturday, August 4, 2018 8:21 PM

My club used cotton and sprayed it red and yellow with a little black at the very end, I think if you do that and the flicker light you'll get a quite realistic representation.

Add a blower and no one will have naysay for it.

Steve

If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, August 4, 2018 6:22 PM

I am not familiar with refineries, but I did watch a couple videos.

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One great feature is that I saw no smoke, that makes it easier for sure.

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I think a comnbination of the flickering light and and some clear plastic could be convincing.

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By the way, I am also 100% against a real flame.

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-Kevin

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Living the dream.

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Posted by caldreamer on Saturday, August 4, 2018 8:17 AM

Thank you for the complement.  I watched various videos of flare stacks and most were small to medium flame comping out of the stack, but one  had a flame of about thirty feet.  I will let you know when I get the unit and assemble the components

      Ira

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Posted by peahrens on Friday, August 3, 2018 10:34 PM

First I would concur that any real flame IMHO is a very bad idea, unless in a separate expendable building.  Then just a bad idea.Surprise

Second, I admire your initiative to tackle the issue.  Several have given ideas on what might work as a reasonable flame representation.  From there, variables include the option to turn it off, with nothing visible, then tuned on when desired.

The ultimate would be, when not flaring, to have several teeny blue flame gas pilots and perhaps some atomizing steam plume thru leaking valves.  Next stage, active at lower rates, with an orange to bluish flame and minimum blackish smoke due to incomplete combustion. 

The flare tips in the 1980 time frame typically were essentially smokeless, with a clean orange to bluish flame up to some (10%??) of max plant output at beginning of an upset.  Beyond that flow they initially typically produced very significant black smoke (and copious noise) until the plant was dialed back and the mixing steam injection also maximized.  Modelling the heavy black smoke  could lead into a clean track discussion.

At one plant I worked, a "ground flare" was included.  That was a large round cylinder at grade with many burners and steam that very efficiently combusted gas up to the first 10% of relief capacity.  Above that flow a water seal was blown that then allowed gas to go to the elevated flare.

Let us know what you develop.  My small refinery has no flare at this point, not so realistic.

 

 

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by caldreamer on Friday, August 3, 2018 8:16 PM

Mel:

  My flickering unit is on order and should be here Monday.  Will let you know how it works out.

     Ira

  

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, August 3, 2018 8:38 AM

That might look better than using LEDs.  I actually prefer using incandescent bulbs, they look more realistic.  If yours works out I might give one a try too.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by caldreamer on Friday, August 3, 2018 8:06 AM

Greenway Products has a flickering unit.  I     ordered one to use with my 1.5 volt bulb.  Will report on how well it works.

 

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Posted by caldreamer on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 9:29 PM

Thanks for the effort.  I will get some and try it.

     Ira

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 6:50 PM

I’ve searched everywhere and come up empty, sorry.  Here is a link to a similar LED (candle flickering).  I ordered them in a 100 pack without leads and resistors.  These should work for you.
 
 
I would suggest that you dink around with external resistors to get the proper effect from your power source.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 6:10 PM

The blue on the flames on the four refineries in El Paso was very hard to see, even less as the flame got larger and brighter.
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 5:37 PM

I'd put some blue or purple at the very base, just a little. Just to get the effect.

Steve

If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 4:07 PM

caldreamer

RR Mel:

  Thanks, I am looking forward to hearing from you.  What size resistor is needed for the LED's?

      Ira

 

Still looking.  As best as I can remember I used a 1KΩ ¼ watt resistors on both LEDs from my 8½ volt supply.  They were quite bright but I used them as indirect lighting not straight on.
 
I painted the interior of the fireplaces with Aluminum Crafters paint and positioned the LEDs to flood the fireplace with light from the bottom.  The effect is rather good, the interior room flickers like the real thing with the room light off.  With the room light on you can still see the fire in the fireplace through the windows.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by caldreamer on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 2:37 PM

RR Mel:

  Thanks, I am looking forward to hearing from you.  What size resistor is needed for the LED's?

      Ira

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Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:43 PM

Another method would be to carve a flame from a round plastic or wooden dowel and paint it red, orange and yellow. Yellow being where the flame is the hottest.

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad
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Posted by NWP SWP on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 11:18 AM

My club used cotton as the smoke from a smokestack, you could use that some LEDs and a small fan to get the cotton to flicker and such.

Steve

If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 10:38 AM

caldreamer

RR Mel:

  Where did you get the flickering Led's?  I need just one orange one and it would work great. How many ohm resistor resistor did you use?

 

 

I have 276 parts drawers and I ran out of storage space, because the flickering LEDs are not on my list of frequently used goodies I stored them else were and I have looked for them all morning without success.
 
I will continue looking for them and you are welcome to have a dozen or so if I can locate them.  I have 14 two section parts drawers dedicated to LEDs and didn’t make room for the flickering LEDs.
 
Some look empty but they're not.

I bought a 100 pack each of orange and yellow off eBay about 2 or 3 years ago.  I was in a flame mode back then and I built up a couple dozen fireplaces, camp fires and a forge in my roundhouse, haven’t used any since.
 
I remember growing up in EL Paso where there were 4 refineries with flames.  I would think that you will need to use some fiber optics for N scale using a 3mm LED.  I might point out that a single flickering orange LED looks like a flickering orange LED.  Using a yellow with the orange actually looks like a flame.  If you shape a 1mm fiber to look like a flame and drive it with a orange and yellow LED I think it would look very real.
 
 
EDIT:
 
On occasion the flames would look 15’ to 20’ long.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 

 

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Posted by caldreamer on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 8:02 AM

RR Mel:

  Where did you get the flickering Led's?  I need just one orange one and it would work great. How many ohm resistor resistor did you use?

 

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Posted by RR_Mel on Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:35 AM

BigDaddy

 

 
RR_Mel
. The ones I buy are 3mm

 

I always thought there was additional circuitry for flickering led's   I thought there was a recent MRVP on the fire in the log blog boiler, but I am not finding it.

What color led or colors do you use to simulate fire?

 

Henry
 
I bought two 100 packs of 3mm flickering orange and yellow.  I pair them up with separate resistors and run them off my 8½ volt structure power supply.  They randomly flicker so the equivalent ends up looking like a real fire slightly changing from orange to yellow.
 
I have several fireplaces with the dual LEDs and powered from my Arduino Random Lighting Controllers.  I have a toggle that parallels the Arduino so that I can keep them on if I’m showing off my lighting.
 
The LEDs flicker on their own, no special circuitry needed.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
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I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by caldreamer on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 9:15 PM

I have some red and clear 1.5 volt micro bulbs.  I was thinking of some orange paint on the bulb and run it to a flicking unit under the layout.  Some cotton sprayed black around the top of the stack might work as well.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 7:51 PM

RR_Mel
. The ones I buy are 3mm

I always thought there was additional circuitry for flickering led's   I thought there was a recent MRVP on the fire in the log blog boiler, but I am not finding it.

What color led or colors do you use to simulate fire?

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 7:24 PM

I use flickering LEDs for my fireplaces and boilers.  The ones I buy are 3mm and if they’re too big for N gauge use fiber optics.  I buy .5mm. ,75mm, 1mm & 2mm fiber optical cable to remote my LEDs if I need them smaller.  I use orange and yellow together for fireplaces.  The random ywo color flicker looks like the real thing.
 
 
Use heat on the end of the fiber optics to make a blob that looks like a flame.
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
 
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Posted by gmpullman on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 6:48 PM

caldreamer
Any suggestions on how to model this?

I have heard of modelers using one of the ultrasonic water atomizer diffusers as a "smoke unit" in a chimney. Perhaps one of these and a blue LED in or near the stack would work for you? 

I don't know what's inside one of these new-fangled "vape" things but something like that might work. I'm no fan of stinky smoke fluid but the water atomizers may hold promise, especially if driven by a tiny blower.

Just a possibility, Good Luck, Ed

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 6:25 PM

oh well....

I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.

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Posted by 7j43k on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 5:48 PM

I suppose you MIGHT be able to use a real flame, if you designed it just right. 

No mistakes, though.  Imagine what your insurance agent would say when he found out that it had just burned down your house:  "We won't pay out on THAT claim."

 

Ed

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Posted by caldreamer on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 5:16 PM

I model in N scle, so the flame would have be really small.

     Ira

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 3:11 PM

Easy peasy. Use a real flame. One guy did this and it was featured in a 2000's some odd MRR magazine. Which one, I cannot remember.

I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.

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Posted by DJHackett on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 3:07 PM

I would try one of the inexpensive flickering tea lamps. Diassemble the lamp from the base, wire it into the flare stack, maybe add some transparent orange paint and fire it up. We are assuming full combustion so your flare should not be belching black smoke. 

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