I am coming along well with the construction of the benchwork for my first model railroad build. I am focusing on a small rail line here in Eastern Kentucky that has lately been turned into a rail trail after being donated to the state by the estate of R.J. Corman.
What I need to know is, what is the best HO scale manufacturer of locomotives from that era and what might have been used on the Dawkins Rail line to haul timber and coal out of the mountains? I am including a short history of the rail line below. Hope someone can help me with this doc:
"...The railroad derived its name from the Dawkins Lumber Company. In 1912, the Dawkins Lumber Company incorporated the Big Sandy & Kentucky River Railroad (BS&KR) to build thirty one miles of line through three watersheds into Breathitt County. The corporate officers of the BS&KR were W. H. Dawkins, vice president; T. N. Fannin of Ashland, and L. N. Davis treasurer.
The BS&KR railroad office was at Riceville from 1913 to 1920. In 1920 as the tracks were extended to Carver, the railroad office was moved to Royalton. The BS&KR never reached Breathitt County. The stock market crash of 1929 terminated the Company. The C&O railroad acquired the entire stock of the BS&KR on September 22, 1930.
The C&O did not construct the tunnel at Carver (or Tiptop) until 1949. Tracks were finally extended from Carver to Evanston in Breathitt County after construction of this tunnel.
The C&O acquired the B&O and the Western Maryland in 1960. The C&O operated these Companies independently until 1972. In 1972 the C&O merged these entities and formed the Chessie system. In 1982 Chessie merged with Seaboard and became CSX.
In 2002 CSX sold the Dawkins Line to R. J. Corman. R.J. Corman filed to abandon and railbank the thirty six miles of the Dawkins line the week of November 6, 2004.
IMHO Atlas,Athearn RTR and P2K.
BTW The Chessie roads was never merged under the Chessie banner..The first merger would come in '83 under the CSX banner.B&O merged with the WM..In 1987 the C&O/B&O merged.Then few months later C&O was merged into CSX Transportation.
The Seaboard System was absorbed by CSX Transportation in 86.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Your era is 1960 to 1987?
Best is an illusion. The Life Like Proto 2000 locos were more detailed than their peers, when they were introduced. They are good runners, but if you are going to DCC you need to install decoders and led's. Many of them suffered from a cracked gear problem, which is easily fixed with Athearn gears.
Atlas especially older Atlas were/are good runners. As were Stewart locos.
Athearn is the last of the current manufacturers to adopt led's. I am not up to speed in DCC conversion on blue box locos, except I know the motors need to be isolated from the frame.
Bachmann, while the list price is high, the out the door price is not. Older locos had a split frame which complicates DCC conversion. I don't think the detail is quite as good and the sound value DCC decoders have the annoying habit of immediately starting up when the track is powered on.
I forget what thread I saw this, but it is a timeline of locos by model
http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRdieselchrono.html
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddyAthearn is the last of the current manufacturers to adopt led's. I am not up to speed in DCC conversion on blue box locos, except I know the motors need to be isolated from the frame.
The Athearn RTR engines comes with a DCC plug.
Good info. I want to find out more about the history of this local rail line. I’ll check out the mfrs you list...don’t know if they were using steam or diese. Doc
You are rather vague about your era. B&O dieselized in 1958. L&N, Clinchfield, C&O, and WM several years before that. It sounds like steam is out of the question. Of course, it's your railroad if you want to stretch things a bit.
Tom
Thanks for the info, Larry. I'll check out these mfrs but first I have to determine exactly the sort of locomotives that were likely being used by the BS & KY rail line in the 1950's. That's going to take some research on my part. Doc
Thanks Henry, for the information. I'll try to check into the Proto 2000 locos but that cracked gear problem and the installation of led's and decoders doesn't sound good to me. You mention two words/phrases from Model Railroading I am unfamiar with. You say, "good runners", "blue box" locos, and the concept of isolating locomotives. I'm not sure what "good runners" or "blue box" or the concept of isolating locomotives means. Doc
Thanks Larry, a DCC "plug"??? And, I know this is very basic, but "RTR"??? Remember, you are talking to a rank newbee. Doc
Thanks, Tom. yes, the time I want to recapture is the mid 1950's and as I understand from the little reading I have been able to do, that was a transition era from steam to diesel. Is that correct? Doc
If you are going to convert a loco from DC to DCC, it had better run well in DC or it won't run well in DCC. By good runner, I mean it pulls well, it run well a low speed without jerkiness.
Blue box There was a time when almost everything from Athearn was in a simple blue box, including locos. They were less detailed, the motors drew more power and since DCC didn't exist, the wiring was different, in that wheel pickup on one side was carried to the frame and the motor was in contact with the frame. DCC doesn't like that. The conversion requires you to isolate the motor from the from, with a piece of nonconductive tape, (Kapton is the brand name)
You may see the term DCC ready. That has varied meaning, depending on the manufacturer. In some cases it is as simple as installing a plug, in others it involves removing capacitors installed on the circuit board, or isolating a motor. None of the old locos provided extra room for a speaker, so some ingenuity is required for that too.
DCC PLUG The ultimate in being DCC ready it to have a socket in the circuit board in the loco. This is very common, now, it wasn't when DCC ready first appeared. There is a dummy plug in the socket, you remove it and insert a DCC decoder that has the matching plug.
Converting a loco to DCC isn't brain surgery, but if you have never soldered and are prone to stripping nuts and bolts, it can be quite daunting. Since you are new, you don't have a stable of old locos to worry about so stick to DCC locos.
LED's are preferable to bulbs because they last forever. Older locos and Athearns up until very recently use bulbs. Led's aren't hard to add, but again it's soldering of very small wires. Some decoders have built in resistors for led's or bulbs, some do not and you have to add a resistor.
Blue Box are Athearn's old locos. They came in, well, a blue box. They are fairly easy to convert because everythign is in the open, but you need to do soldering, you can't just plug in a decoder. But really, if you are just starting - learn to solder. It will come in very handy. And can save you money.
RTR is Athearn's upgraded version of the old Blue Box locos. They have a circuit board installed and you can just plug a decoder in and instant DCC loco.
Brakie: was it really not until the early/mid 80's that the started putting "Chessie System" on the long hood with a small B&O, C&O, or WM on the cab under the window? Seems like they started doing that a lot earlier than that, or maybe I'm just getting old and it seems like it was longer ago.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
All good info Hank...thanks. I'm sure I'll learn the lingo in time but this helps a lot. Doc
I appreciate the info, Randy. It's much better to be able to "speak the language"... and I know what getting old feels like...my shoulder just popped out again! Still... would I be correct in saying the mid 1950's would be a transition era between steam and diesel? Doc
rrinkerBrakie: was it really not until the early/mid 80's that the started putting "Chessie System" on the long hood with a small B&O, C&O, or WM on the cab under the window? Seems like they started doing that a lot earlier than that, or maybe I'm just getting old and it seems like it was longer ago. --Randy
Randy,The Chessie System paint scheme with C&O/B&O/WM on the cab started showing up shortly after the formation of the Chessie System.
On the B&O GP7/9s the Chessie "C" was on the nose of the long hood.
But wait!
C&O sent several engines to shore up B&O aging locomotive fleet. These Geeps retain their C&O looks and numbers and enchantment blue paint and was simply lettered C&O.. All B&O did was replace the C with a B.
Some of those Geeps was repainted into the Chessie scheme with the Chessie "C" on the nose of the short hood.
The thing about modeling the Chessie is knowing what road you are going to model because B&O still used their position signals with lunar aspects.Also you would want the majority of your locomotives painted for the Chessie road you model with lots of engine still in their B&O,C&O and WM paint.
Then came the crazy 80s when motive power became more mixed thanks to CSX Transportation. In the mid 80s the road names that made up Seaboard System started showing up on the B&O and C&O including the early CSX locomotives..
BRAKIERandy,The Chessie System paint scheme with C&O/B&O/WM on the cab started showing up shortly after the formation of the Chessie System.
I was pretty fortunate to be "invited" to the Chessie unveiling at Cleveland's B&O West 3rd St. Roundhouse. That was August 31, 1972. The young lady was in charge of tearing off the blue crepe paper. Hays Watkins, Howard Skidmore and Bill Howes were there. I was a junior in high school!
1977_GP40 by Edmund, on Flickr
These photos are frames from my 8 mm movie film I made that day.
1977_GP40-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
Both engines were dead and after the ceremony an old B&O Alco S2 coupled them together and towed them off to the roundhouse to keep clean. For a while there were two 1977s on the B&O. You could always spot this one, before renumbering, to 4163, due to the larger B&O on the cab side.
1977_GP40-3 by Edmund, on Flickr
Sorry for the fuzzy photos but that's the besy I could do from an 8mm film.
Thank You,
Regards, Ed
Larry - "Thou speakest a language I knowest not!"...position signals? lunar aspects? long hood? I'm not sure I have enough years left to learn the basics of railroading! One thing may help me (at least me) at this point. Can anyone post some pics of some B & O locomotives that might have been in use in the mid 1950's with a short description? I've checked the Athearn site, Walthers, Bachman, etc and there are just so many locos presented there that I am more than a bit overwhelmed. Thanks for all the information and help. Doc
The GP40-2's pictured above are too new for the 50's, but they can explain long hood/short hood - it's fairly obvious as opposed to some railroading terms as it is exactly descriptive. The only complication is which end is the front - in the early days of the first diesel (first generation, aptly enough), a lot of railroads ran their locos with the long hood forward - more like a steam loco, with the long boiler out in front. A few railroad ran short hood forward, but they were the exception. Byt the time of the second generation of diesels, typically considered to start in the early 60;s with the introduction of the EMD GP30, or maybe more correctly, the first diesels purchased to replace older diesels and not steam, most railroads ran short hood forward, like those GP40-2's above. Except for a few oddball locos, the cab is not in the middle of the body, so one end is long and the other is short.
In the 50's you would see loco models like the GP7 and GP9 from EMD, FT through F7 from EMD. RS1, RS2, and RS3 from Alco. I don't recall if B&O had any FM Trainmasters or Baldwin AS16 or one of the varients of those. Here is a B&O diesel roster, it shows the loco number, the manufacturer, the date they were aquired, and some photos of each model.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo.html
Thanks Randy. I appreciate the knowledge. I have run across some more terms I do not understand if you or someone could help with. What is a "frog" and/or a "dead frog." Also what do the numerical designations such as 2-8-8-0 or 2-6-0 mean? Thanks. Doc
aprofitt0002Also what do the numerical designations such as 2-8-8-0 or 2-6-0 mean?
Steam Locomotive wheel aragement Whyte notation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notatio
In the US, Diesel locomotive wheeel arrangements are designated by the AAR notation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAR_wheel_arrangement
Whyte notation is generally not used for diesels but, about 40 years ago I noticed that a diesel at the Sacramento Railroad Museum had a small metal plaque on it's side with the wheel arangement in Whyte notation. Wish I had a photo.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Very interesting...I find that there is so much more to this hobby than I had ever thought possible. Thanks, my friend. Doc
Doc,Here's the B&O signal guide.
http://www.navpooh.com/signals.html
aprofitt0002 Thanks, Tom. yes, the time I want to recapture is the mid 1950's and as I understand from the little reading I have been able to do, that was a transition era from steam to diesel. Is that correct? Doc
Your location is Eastern Kentucky, which means C&O and possibly L&N or Clinchfield. B&O did not operate in Eastern Kentucky.
On the L&N, steam was almost dead by the end of 1955. A few steamers continued to operate on the EK and KY Divisions in early 1956, but they didn't last long.
On the C&O, the time frame was almost the same. Most steam ended in 1955, with a few engines operating in 1956.
For the mid 1950's, you'll want first generation diesels. Both C&O and L&N favored EMD products, but L&N also had quite a few Alcos. Not so many of those on C&O, in comparison.
There is a lot of overlapping and conflicting information here, and part of it has to do with the understandable fact that a lot of this is new to you. That's no crime. The learning process is one of the great things about this hobby.
There are two main separate areas of learning: the prototype (i.e., what we are trying to represent); and the specifics of model railroading (i.e., how to represent it in miniature).
Some of the things you have been asking are self contradictory. The mid 1950's was long before the Chessie era. Until 1960. the Chesapeake & Ohio, Western Maryland, Baltimore & Ohio, Louisville & Nashville, and others, were separate and unrelated. In 1960, C&O, B&O, and WM merged, and their separate identities started to be lost. Around the early 1970's, the Chessie identity emerged, but it eventually disappeared when all the above companies (plus others) became part of CSX Transportation Company in 1986. In the 1950's, the C&O, B&O, and L&N all had their own distinct paint schemes, and the Chessie scheme was over 10 years in the future.
Steam locomotives of these companies were all distinctive, and many have been made available to modelers. These range from exacting scale models doewn to stand-ins that carry the road name, but are not accurate representations. Operating quality of these models can vary. Usually, you get what you pay for.
If you go for the later Chessie era, it's all diesel, principally 2nd generation.
Of course there is no rule saying you must adhere strictly to a historic time frame. Many do and many don't. It's all up to you, and modern diesels will operate on the same track as the steamers.
I have four recommendations:
1. Find a friend and mentor. The folks here on the forum will help when possible, but there's nothing like having a trusted human being nearby when you're flummoxed. The model railroad club or local hobby shop (if you have one) can be a good place to find such people.
2. Seek out and join historical societies that focus on your areas of interest. There are several societies that can help you with info about your favorite railroads, types of operation (coal mining, for example), and other issues.
3. Build your library. Books on railroads in general, or your favorite railroads, or the towns or industries you want to represent, can do nothing but help.
4. Always make sure you're having fun.
ACY TomIn 1960, C&O, B&O, and WM merged,
No! No! one more time NO! Let me say it again.No!
The C&O took control of the B&O in 1960..In 1968 B&O took control of WM.The Chessie roads was never, never ever merged period.
The first mergers would come under CSX Transportation.See my eariler post for dates.
Doc here is a link to the L&N Historical Society L&N Historical Society
Dale
OK, Larry. They didn't legally merge. Their identities became so entwined with one another that it looked and felt like a very sloppy merger. It wasn't pretty.
ACY Tom OK, Larry. They didn't legally merge. Their identities became so entwined with one another that it looked and felt like a very sloppy merger. It wasn't pretty. Tom
Tom,That ugly mess came under CSX Transportation starting in or about 81. During the Chessie era all three roads was operated independlently that's why you see C&O,B&O or WM on the cab above the numbers.These locomotives stayed on home rails 99% of the time. Chessie System was just the parent company.Not all engines was painted into the Chessie scheme.
There are several good books on C&O,B&O and WM as well as the Chessie System that explains the set up far better then I can because it tells of the Corporate history. There are several good Chessie videos as well.
You would be surprise of the truth behind C&O grabbing control of the B&O by buying 51% of B&O's stock.This also included the B&OCT.
The Family lines was not merged either and when they did merge in 1982 they became the Seaboard System. This was due to the formation of CSX Transportation the pending mergers of C&O,B&O and WM.
CSX Transportation really mess things up and it wasn't unusual to see SCL and L&N locomotives in Russell, Ky on a routine bases in fact the very first Seaboard System MP15AC I seen was switching cars in the Russell yards.
This was before any mergers into CSX which replaced Chessie as the parent company..
During the 1960's, C&O influence became pretty obvious on B&O. Quite a few C&O locos were sold to B&O and kept their original paint scheme, with minor modifications of the lettering. We started seeing more and more C&O and WM units in places like Akron on the B&O mainline. I remember one mournful day when a single C&O F7 limped into Akron and stopped at the hill yard until an Alco S2 yard engine could tie onto the rear to push the train up the westbound hill, which was the ruling grade for the Division. During the 1960's, the B&O passenger paint scheme became essentially the same as C&O's. B&O fans wept.
Tom,While doinng some research I found B&O still had FM H16-44s in operation in '72..
I double check several on line photos of B&O's 16-44 and 71/'72 seem to correct.
Photos can be found on fallen flags and rail pictures.net.