Thanks JW
Jim Fuhrmans website added to favorites bar.
Thomas
The most detailed information I could find is on Jim Fuhrman's web site:
http://trainweb.org/jfuhrtrain/CF7frames/F3F7F9.html
His main emphasis is the Santa Fe; however, he also has two pages of general EMD phase charts.
http://trainweb.org/jfuhrtrain/PhaseCharts.html
JW
This discussion of F-3 and F-7s reminds me of a photograph of Santa Fe's 263C I shot in Oklahoma City in 1974. It had the horizontal louvers of an F-7 between the portholes but the chicken wired carbody openings similar to an F-3 above them. The unit was in fact an F-7 built without the perforated grilles of most F-7s for what reason is unknown. It was part of a series of eight A-B-B-A sets numbered 260L,A,B,C-267L,A,B,C, which were built in the middle of the 202L,A,B,C,-280L,A,B,C group of F-7s. There have been EMD covered wagons that lost their grilles during their lives but these ATSF units were delivered with out them.
The carbodies of F2 through F9 units were essentially the same. Number boards were small on F2's and early F3's, but were replaced with large boxy ones on later F3's and subsequent deliveries. The F2's and early F3's had high fans, but late F3's and subsequent deliveries had low fans. Later, these were sometimes swapped in shopping. F2's and early F3's had flat panels with openings on the upper sides, often covered with chicken wire screening. Late F3's (sometimes referred to as F5's) and later deliveries had grilles over the upper side panels. That's an extremely oversimplified rundown. Don't forget to check the pilot. Many early F's were delivered with streamlined pilots instead of the common Bulldog pilot.
B&O's passenger F3 AB sets were delivered with high fans and streamlined pilots. Their freight F3's were delivered in AA sets with low fans and Bulldog pilots. When Stewart released the B&O F3 with high fans many years ago, I bought a few of them and replaced the high fans with low ones that I ordered from Stewart as replacement parts. It was a simple pop-in replacement.
Tom
Early F3s had three windows like the prior F2 had. Later they switched to two like the later F7 and F9. As has been mentioned, things like fan placement or height, screening/louvers etc. changed as EMD made improvements. When EMD updated something they normally didn't keep producing the earlier version, so a railroad ordering F3s might in one year might get somewhat different looking engines than if they got another order of F3s the next years. It's like buying a 1957 Chevy BelAir and later buying a 1960 BelAir. Same model, but didn't look the same.
The BAR had F3s with Chicken wire with both low and high fans. The first few came with high fans and some were modified with low fans through the shops. One number 42 kept the high fans through the 1970s.
Ron High
The ones that have chicken wire grills. The ones Stewart did had chicken wire grills and low fans which are not correct. The one you showed was what a lot of people called an f5. Those are externally almost identical to an f7. If there are differences externally I am not aware of it.
WHat numbers? Here's 114C with clearly low fans
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=108430
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
They are wrong for the CGW. Stewart released F3s in CGW paint. For the ones they released the low profile fans are incorrect. Overall tho I like the Stewart locos. Good runners nice looking.
CGW121 I have a bunch of F3s of different brands. Intermountain is one LLProto 1000, and Stewart. Intermountain is overall the best with Stewart close behind The proto 1000 comes in last mainly they come with only one headlight where as the others have 2 Inter mountain and proto have good fans and to me they look close enough Stewart has low profile which are not correct. None of these are real important but what bugs me more than that is where they paint the things with the wrong colors.
I have a bunch of F3s of different brands. Intermountain is one LLProto 1000, and Stewart. Intermountain is overall the best with Stewart close behind The proto 1000 comes in last mainly they come with only one headlight where as the others have 2 Inter mountain and proto have good fans and to me they look close enough Stewart has low profile which are not correct. None of these are real important but what bugs me more than that is where they paint the things with the wrong colors.
The low profile fans on the Stewart F3 are NOT wrong, depending on what road name you have. The Reading bought very late F3s which had the low fans of the F7.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/rdg/rdg263s.jpg
Some later F3s had automatic transition, the F7s with the 567BC engines didn't start production until September 1953, and the D47 traction motor was not used by EMD until mid 1959. Also a few F7s were built with 567C engines to try them out.
graymatter The 1500-horsepower F7 differed from the 1500-horsepower F3 mainly by the installation of automatic transition, a 567BC diesel engine, and D47 traction motors.
The 1500-horsepower F7 differed from the 1500-horsepower F3 mainly by the installation of automatic transition, a 567BC diesel engine, and D47 traction motors.
Ed, theses days, close enough is always good enough for me. Depite my knowledge of the prototype, I have long been in the camp of "overall impression" rather than "exactly correct".
Heck, 95% of my passenger car fleet, B&O, C&O, WM and freelance ATLANTIC CENTRAL, are generic 72' cars.......with lots of detail and close coupled with working diaphragms.
That feature of realism is more noticable, to more people, than exact window arrangements or even car length.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL 7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL Of course the loco in the OP's photo is an F3 with the low fans........ There ya go: Rivet counting, again. Ed Eaxctly, so the only way to get it right is buy a hard to find Highliner kit and invest 30-40 hrs, assuming you have the skills........ Sheldon
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL Of course the loco in the OP's photo is an F3 with the low fans........ There ya go: Rivet counting, again. Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Of course the loco in the OP's photo is an F3 with the low fans........
Of course the loco in the OP's photo is an F3 with the low fans........
There ya go: Rivet counting, again.
Ed
Eaxctly, so the only way to get it right is buy a hard to find Highliner kit and invest 30-40 hrs, assuming you have the skills........
Or accept a UP F3 with a lower number--with the high fans. UP had both high and low fans on their F3's. Depending on the number. And, perhaps, the date--since the fans can be changed out. I just saw a shot of UP 1421 with a high fan housing for the #1 position, and low for #2 and #3. And witherization on #4.
If off-the-shelf suits ya, as it frequently does me, fine. If you (or I) want something different and want to build it, also fine.
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL Of course the loco in the OP's photo is an F3 with the low fans........ It's interesting that the tall fans would sometimes be replaced with lower ones. It's especially interesting to me that GN was sort of random about that on their passenger F's. Ed
It's interesting that the tall fans would sometimes be replaced with lower ones.
It's especially interesting to me that GN was sort of random about that on their passenger F's.
Ed, think of it this way, EMD improved the design of the fans, your old style fan wears out, why not install the better style? At some point I suspect the parts to repair/replace the old style became obsolete.
I doubt there was any big change to the car body regarding how the two fan styles are mounted, considering it was "running change" during F3 production.
It's especially interesting to me that GN was sort of random about that on their passenger F's:
In the photo, the first two fans on the lead unit are the low style, while #3 is still the high. One can also see that there is a raised fan grill on the top of the winterization hatch--also unusual.
Admittedly, this could be called rivet counting.
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL Agreed that winterization hatch looks bad - question is are they all like that? Don't know. But that's the one Intermountain chose to "show off". What is wrong with the fans, they look like F3 fans to me? Here's a shot of an Athearn: Mostly, the Intermountain just look "funny" to me. I would say that the Intermountain fans have too big a fillet around the fan base, and that there's too much draft angle showing on the sides. I can't find a good shot of those fan shrouds, so I can't say which is more correct. But they do look different to me. And one could argue that since the Highliner shell is "officially" the best, then their fans should be, too. Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Agreed that winterization hatch looks bad - question is are they all like that?
Agreed that winterization hatch looks bad - question is are they all like that?
Don't know. But that's the one Intermountain chose to "show off".
What is wrong with the fans, they look like F3 fans to me?
Here's a shot of an Athearn:
Mostly, the Intermountain just look "funny" to me. I would say that the Intermountain fans have too big a fillet around the fan base, and that there's too much draft angle showing on the sides.
I can't find a good shot of those fan shrouds, so I can't say which is more correct. But they do look different to me.
And one could argue that since the Highliner shell is "officially" the best, then their fans should be, too.
I have Intermountain, Proto and Genesis F units, and Highliner kits I built myself. No question the Athearn/Highliner is the very best F unit shell. But overall, the Intermountain and Proto F's are both a very close second.
And all three drives are very nice, while all three have their minor flaws.......
Disclamer - I got bored with OCD rivet counting years ago........
7j43k Sheldon, I will disagree: http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/49103.htm Look at the horns. Look how the winterization hatch FLOATS above the roof. FLOATS!!! Those fans don't look so great, either. Ed
Sheldon,
I will disagree:
http://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/49103.htm
Look at the horns.
Look how the winterization hatch FLOATS above the roof. FLOATS!!!
Those fans don't look so great, either.
Well, I don't model UP and have never seem the the UP version up close, but my B&O set looks great.
Take a look at Bowser they ofer a lot of different versions of the F3.
http://www.bowser-trains.com/history/emdf3loco.html
7j43k graymatter Missed the Athearn F3 by 8 years!!!! https://www.ebay.com/sch/HO-Scale/19128/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=athearn%20f3%20union%20pacific&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684 Intermountain has also been known to make them. But they don't look so great in the company photos. Ed
graymatter Missed the Athearn F3 by 8 years!!!!
Missed the Athearn F3 by 8 years!!!!
https://www.ebay.com/sch/HO-Scale/19128/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=athearn%20f3%20union%20pacific&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
Intermountain has also been known to make them. But they don't look so great in the company photos.
?????
Intermountain F units are every bit as well detailed and accurate as Genesis or Proto........
Thanks Ed
Intermountain or Athearn or MTH.....all look good on the ebay link
Thanks Thomas
Okay
graymatter Okay I will look for an HO scale EMD F3A phase II.
I will look for an HO scale EMD F3A phase II.
http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=F3+ATHG&CatID=THLD&OA=True&RN=UP
LOTS of good reading here on UP F units:
http://utahrails.net/articles/up-f-units.php
and a better photo of the roof detail here:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/up/up1424bcb.jpg
(Sans winterization hatch)
Spark arrestors have been added in later years which may make the stacks appear taller, they can be seen in Mel's photo posted above.
I have a few Intermountain F3s that I'm pretty satisfied with:
https://www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/49103.htm
Stewart/Bowser, Proto 2000, Athearn Genesis, MTH and a few others have decent models in HO. Take your pick!
Good Luck, Ed