Was there ever heavyweight duplex sleeper cars? I have seen some HO scale models on eBay are these just fantasy models or of an actual prototype???
Here are two for sale right now:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/222676511566
http://www.ebay.com/itm/302463241252
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
The Pennsylvania Railroad built (or actually converted) at least two sleeping cars, The "Wanderer" and The "Voyager" which had staggered sleeping berths.
Another pair "Eventide" and "Nocturne" were also built as experimentals. Maybe these were the basis for the AHM model.
The PRR built MP70 coaches for use on the Long Island Railroad, which might be what the AHM model represents. These were the prototypes for the later bi-level commuter cars still in use today. I believe there were 52 built.
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4032263
Good Luck, Ed
I have AHM/Rivarossi "duplex" sleeping cars in Pennsy paint and lettering for both standard and modern eras. The modern era is the Morrow Brook - there was a Brook series of streamlined duplex sleepers on the Pennsy and this is one of them.
The standard era car is just numbered 118. No name.
Arthur D Dubin's book Some Classic Trains has a photo and floor plan of the standard (6 axle heavyweight) duplex sleepers that the Pennsy created in 1932 by rebuilding two composite club cars. Those cars were named Eventide and Nocturne. 16 duplex single rooms. It is quite similar to the AHM car and I assume is the prototype for it.
AHM/Rivarossi offered those models in a variety of roadnames but I believe the PRR is authentic.
Dave Nelson
Thanks! And is it true that heavyweights weren't made into domes because the walls weren't strong enough to support the weight of the dome?
NWP SWPAnd is it true that heavyweights weren't made into domes because the walls weren't strong enough to support the weight of the dome?
Never heard that explanation before. The Canadian Pacific had several "Birdcage" wood dome cars in the 1890's.
The modern-day (i.e. streamliner-era) dome car probably came from the desire to try to attract passengers to keep riding passenger trains after the post-war increase in competition from automobiles and airlines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_car
During the heavyweight era, I believe the railroad saw their mission as providing transportation for the masses, not so much as a scenic experience. There were solarium-observation cars, of course, as the open-end observation car fell out of favor with travelers as the higher speeds made for a rather uncomfortable experience not to mention inclement weather.
Thank You,
Ed
I heard that from Wikipedia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_car_(rail)
Go to the "history" section scroll down to the last paragraph of "lightweight vs heavyweight"
NWP SWPI heard that from Wikipedia.
Yep, I read it... but I'm not in agreement with it.
If Pullman can sheath the sides of U.S. No. 1 the Ferdinand Magellan, with 5/8" steel plate and 3" thick windows certainly— if there was a need — they could have beefed up some structural members in order to add a glass-top to a heavyweight car.
https://www.nps.gov/nr/travel/presidents/us_car_number_one.html
Perhaps the development of tempered safety glass had some inroads to the development of dome cars more than the strength of steels available?
Regards, Ed
NWP SWP Thanks! And is it true that heavyweights weren't made into domes because the walls weren't strong enough to support the weight of the dome?
Answer to the AHM heavyweight duplex sleeper question:
The Pullman company rebuilt two heavyweight bagg/club cars into 16 room duplex sleepers of plan 4029, diagram 89 for the PRR in 1933. They were named NOCTURNE (#8572) and EVENTIDE (#8571). They are the cars that AHM built in HO scale, which they incorrectly numbered as 118.
I have a picture of the Nocturne taken in 1959. It looks identical to the AHM model. The car numbers don't appear to have been applied, but they were numbered in the books. The name PULLMAN is also in the center on the name board rather than the name Pennsylvainia. "Pennsylvania" was applied in much smaller letters near the car ends.
The cars were an experiment which eventually lead to the light weight era duplex sleepers. According to what was told to me by a Pullman car historian and expert- the Eventide and Nocturne were used on the slow overnight passenger/mail train between NY Penn Station and Washington DC. A reciprocal train ran in the opposite direction during the same hours. That's why there were two such cars- one car travelling in each direction.
Both cars were retired in May,1956 and sat in Northumberland yard for years before they were scrapped.
To model one of the cars all you need to do is remove the car number 118 and apply one of the names to it. You can also remove the road name and apply the Pullman name to it.
Pullman did not create any of these cars for any other railroad. Only the Pennsy got them. AHM obviously wanted to make a good return on their product so they made them with other road names.
As for the Wayfarer and the Voyager- they were rebuilt in 1931. They were another two-of-a-kind. Pullman built those only for the Pennsy as well. I don't know anything more about their history.
JW
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I picked-up two of those duplex sleepers from a now-closed hobbyshop, for not more than a couple of bucks each. One was lettered for PULLMAN, with smaller lettering for Wabash, while the other was a Canadian Pacific car, name Revelstoke. They were somewhat unusual, as the underbody was removeable, rather than the roof
Of course, I made them even more unusual by shortening one of the underbodies somewhat and using it under another kitbashed car, but also swiped the non-duplex-side windows to create a totally different car for a friend.
If anybody wants them to create a duplex sleeper with a centre aisle, contact me via PM.
Wayne
Alexxx Answer to the AHM heavyweight duplex sleeper question: The Pullman company rebuilt two heavyweight bagg/club cars into 16 room duplex sleepers of plan 4029, diagram 89 for the PRR in 1933. They were named NOCTURNE (#8572) and EVENTIDE (#8571). They are the cars that AHM built in HO scale, which they incorrectly numbered as 118. I have a picture of the Nocturne taken in 1959. It looks identical to the AHM model. The car numbers don't appear to have been applied, but they were numbered in the books. The name PULLMAN is also in the center on the name board rather than the name Pennsylvainia. "Pennsylvania" was applied in much smaller letters near the car ends. The cars were an experiment which eventually lead to the light weight era duplex sleepers. According to what was told to me by a Pullman car historian and expert- the Eventide and Nocturne were used on the slow overnight passenger/mail train between NY Penn Station and Washington DC. A reciprocal train ran in the opposite direction during the same hours. That's why there were two such cars- one car travelling in each direction. Both cars were retired in May,1956 and sat in Northumberland yard for years before they were scrapped. To model one of the cars all you need to do is remove the car number 118 and apply one of the names to it. You can also remove the road name and apply the Pullman name to it. Pullman did not create any of these cars for any other railroad. Only the Pennsy got them. AHM obviously wanted to make a good return on their product so they made them with other road names.
I got one in Pullman green, lettered for the Santa Fe. Should it be Tuscan for the PRR, or is green correct?
Gary
garyaShould it be Tuscan for the PRR,
Yes.
* Further research reveals that as rebuilt in 1931, the cars wore Pullman Green.
At their first shopping in Buffalo, February, 1937, the cars were then painted PRR Tuscan Red. They wore the red until May 1, 1951 when they were repainted to Pullmamn Green and leased back to the Pullman Company.
The cars primarily saw service between New York and Washington D.C. on trains 102 and 103. After 1951 the cars were used in standby, charter or overflow service until being removed from service in May of 1956, and scrapped at Altoona, in December, '56.
gmpullman garya Should it be Tuscan for the PRR, Yes. * Further research reveals that as rebuilt in 1931, the cars wore Pullman Green. At their first shopping in Buffalo, February, 1937, the cars were then painted PRR Tuscan Red. They wore the red until May 1, 1951 when they were repainted to Pullmamn Green and leased back to the Pullman Company. The cars primarily saw service between New York and Washington D.C. on trains 102 and 103. After 1951 the cars were used in standby, charter or overflow service until being removed from service in May of 1956, and scrapped at Altoona, in December, '56. Regards, Ed
garya Should it be Tuscan for the PRR,
Thanks Ed. I was going to go buy some Tuscan red...now on hold.
I don't suppose you know how they were lettered in the different time periods?
garyaI don't suppose you know how they were lettered in the different time periods?
I have six photos (two in color) showing in a Fall, 2015 issue of the PRRT&HS Keystone. All six photos show gold extended PULLMAN lettering and the car name centered below the windows. No striping.
The cars may have been relettered in buff color but since they were both scrapped in '56 they may not have been relettered.
Pullman_Eventide by Edmund, on Flickr
Pullman Co.
Thanks. Mine is Pullman green, with "Santa Fe," in the letterboard area and a small number "146" (iirc) centered. I'll have to strip those numbers and get gold "PULLMAN" and small "EVENTIDE" or "NOCTURNE" decals.
I wasn't a PRR modeler, but I built a Bowser E6 and then a K4, and I need something for them to pull...
While paging through my copy of the 1937 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, I came across a couple of pictures that are worthy of mention.
1937 was still in the early years of streamlining passenger cars and there are some really unusual examples from those days. Maybe they've been offered in brass but for the kitbasher who is willing to "come close" to precise accuracy there are ideas aplenty in that 1937 Cyc. (Some unusual freight cars too).
Anyway ...
There is a photo of a two-unit Pullman articulated sleeper/observation made of aluminum alloy where the sleeper section is duplex. Full width diaphragm is over the center truck so it looks seamless and very sleek. Three 4-wheel trucks. Photo is too small and blurred to make out the name or names given the car(s). Could it be that the Pennsy acquired Pullman's demonstration set "Advance" and "Progress?" Interior shots show the stairs leading to the second level, and what looks like a quite cramped lower level sleeping compartment.
As for the streamlined duplex sleeper it looks surprisingly similar to another photo in the 1937 volume: a Long Island Railroad "semi-double deck aluminum suburban passenger car." Seating capacity 120. Built by the Pennsy of course. (edited post - presumably the same Long Island car mentioned earlier by another poster).
I believe some of the problems with building a dome car was making curved glass that was strong and had good visual qualities. The automobile industry didn't get it right until the 1950s.