Marker Lights on engines

[Trainman440]

Hey guys, 

I know what the marker lights at the end of the train(like on a caboose) means

But why are there marker lights on the front and back of my engines?

And are these marker lights or class lights or both?

Thanks, 

Charles

[NP01]

I believe they are Class lights. Although AFAIK, marker and class lights mean the same thing ... The former seems to be used more for End of Train red lights.

NP. 

[mbinsewi]

Here's a thread from a few years ago on TRAINS forum.  It explains it pretty good.  It was confusing to me, too (of course, I can get confused easily ).:

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/149153.aspx

Mike.

EDIT: didn't come out as a live link.  You'll have to copy and paste.  See how confused I can get ! 

[Mark R.]

A class light is white or green, and a marker light is red. Class lights are displayed on the front of the train to indicated what type of train it is within the schedule. Red marker lights are displayed on the rear of a train.

The red markers on an engine would be used if the engine was being used in helper service on the rear of the train (either facing forward or backward). They would have also been used if the engine was travelling on the main by itself to indicate the rear of the "train".

Mark.

[Paul3]

Markers are mounted on the rear, and actually define a train.  In RR rulebooks, the rule states that a train is: "An engine or more than one engine coupled, with or without cars, displaying markers." - New Haven Railroad Book of Rules, 1956.

Markers are usually red, with some being green or yellow (depending on the railroad and the situation).  The PRR was a red/green railroad, while the NH was a red/yellow railroad.  In this case, green or yellow markers means the same thing, namely that in manual block territory, when a train was clear in a siding, the marker closest to the mainline track was to be made green (or yellow) with the other marker to remain red.  This told a train approaching from behind that it was safe to proceed past the train in the siding because they were in the clear.

Class lights, on the other hand, are only used on the lead locomotive.  When running on a timetable operation, and when a train is on the regular schedule and thus under timetable authority, a train displays no class lights at all.  When a train is running "Extra", in other words, not on the timetable, the lead loco is to display white class lights at night to the front (or white flags in daylight).  This lets towermen and other trains know that this train is not on the timetable.

Green class lights mean "section following" and are used when the train is running on timetable authority, but is actually running ahead of another section, or train.  This is used when traffic is so busy that the railroad needs to run more than one train to provide the same service.  So the railroad will dispatch one or more trains ahead of the actual scheduled train to take care of the business, all using the original train's timetable authority.  A famous example was the Harvard-Yale Football trains that the NH used to run between Boston and New Haven, CT.  They would run a half dozen trains or more, one right after the other, with all but the last train displaying green class lights at night (or flags in daylight).

As railroads dropped timetable operations, all trains became "extras" and it became redundant to display white class lights or flags on every train.  And without timetable authority in the first place, there was no need for second sections, and thus green class lights were eliminated.  With manual block going away, the need for green or yellow markers on the rear also vanished.  Which leaves only red markers as still being used on modern railroads.

Paul A. Cutler III

[Trainman440]

Ok so if my engine was facing west, with the train going west, and the engine is at the rear(east side of the train), then the rear markerlights on the engine would show red right?

And if my engine was facing east, with the train going west, and the engine is at the rear(east side of the train), then the front markerlights on the engine would show red right?

 

[Lone Wolf and Santa Fe]

A red light marks the end of a train, like a tail light on a automoblie, red on the rear, other colors in the front.

[gmpullman]

Here's a few examples from a 1937 NYC rulebook that may help clarify a few things:

Modern operating rules have, for the most part, eliminated the use of the classification lights. On some roads every train is an extra.

I frequently see the red markers used on helpers, or "snappers" at the grades over the  Allegheny Summit on the old PRR Horseshoe Curve trackage.

Have Fun,

Ed

 

[Mark R.]

Trainman440

Ok so if my engine was facing west, with the train going west, and the engine is at the rear(east side of the train), then the rear markerlights on the engine would show red right?

And if my engine was facing east, with the train going west, and the engine is at the rear(east side of the train), then the front markerlights on the engine would show red right?

 

 

Only if there is an engine on the west end of the train pulling it westward. Remember, red indicates the REAR of the train. If there is only one engine, that engine is obviously on the "front" of the train regardless of what direction it is moving. 

In your description, if there is only one engine on the train, then the engine is still the front of the train, your engine is just pushing the train. The west end of the train would have either a FRED or a caboose with red markers.

In this case, your engine wouldn't be pushing the train very far (town to town), so the outward facing headlight is what would be used - most likely set to dim.

Mark.

[NittanyLion]

Mark R.

 If there is only one engine, that engine is obviously on the "front" of the train regardless of what direction it is moving.

Not true.  

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=419425&nseq=73

An eastbound VRE train with its power on the west end, red markers lit because its the rear of the train.

[cv_acr]

NittanyLion

 

 

Mark R.

 If there is only one engine, that engine is obviously on the "front" of the train regardless of what direction it is moving.

 

 

 

Not true.  

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=419425&nseq=73

An eastbound VRE train with its power on the west end, red markers lit because its the rear of the train.

 

That's a little bit different actually, since the train is being driven from the cab car at the other end. 

Frieght trains don't (can't) operate that way. The driving cab is the engine, and the engine is operated as the front of the train (except for helpers/pushers added to the rear). A single engine (or set of engines) pushing its train is not going to do so for a very long distance, and primarily just for a switching move.

[cv_acr]

NP01

I believe they are Class lights. Although AFAIK, marker and class lights mean the same thing ... The former seems to be used more for End of Train red lights.

(Emphasis added to the part I'm directly addressing...)

Just to be perfectly clear, no they don't. 

While locomotives may have markers (red) and class lights (white/green) all wrapped up in the same mechanism, markers and class lights are used in different ways and mean different things. That usage appears pretty adequately covered above.

[cv_acr]

Paul3

Green class lights mean "section following" and are used when the train is running on timetable authority, but is actually running ahead of another section, or train.  This is used when traffic is so busy that the railroad needs to run more than one train to provide the same service.  So the railroad will dispatch one or more trains ahead of the actual scheduled train to take care of the business, all using the original train's timetable authority.  

 

This is accurate, but just to be clear and avoid any confusion, the additional sections don't run ahead/early of the timetable schedule - none of the sections can run ahead of the posted times. Other trains are relying on the timetable times to clear up and meet this train.

So additional sections will be running later on the schedule, and green signals (flags and/or lights) are added to all but the last section.

So for example, an opposing train that has a timetabled meet with No. 50 at 10:00 at a certain location, will be in the siding and out of the way by no later than 09:55 to wait. And they keep waiting until a train with no lights/flags goes by, even if they sit for several hours watching a dozen trains with either white or green flags pass by. Until that train with no flags goes by, they haven't finished meeting sections of No. 50.

(Unless otherwise given explicit train orders from the dispatcher to change meet locations.)

[zugmann]

cv_acr

Frieght trains don't (can't) operate that way. The driving cab is the engine, and the engine is operated as the front of the train (except for helpers/pushers added to the rear). A single engine (or set of engines) pushing its train is not going to do so for a very long distance, and primarily just for a switching move.

Don't ever say don't or can't on the railroad.  I worked at a terminal that had a 30-mile (or so) daily local that worked in reverse.  All the switches on that track were facing points going away, so the only way to serve the industries was to shove out with a cabin car leading and the motive power on the tail.  The train was considered a westbound move, even though the engine wasn't on the west end.

[BRAKIE]

The W&LE runs a freight train with engines on both ends because when they get to Bellevue,Ohio they change direction from their track onto the NS for trackage rights to Toledo. This is done by a connector track by the NKP& Mad River Railroad Museum.

[dehusman]

cv_acr

So for example, an opposing train that has a timetabled meet with No. 50 at 10:00 at a certain location, will be in the siding and out of the way by no later than 09:55 to wait. And they keep waiting until a train with no lights/flags goes by, even if they sit for several hours watching a dozen trains with either white or green flags pass by. Until that train with no flags goes by, they haven't finished meeting sections of No. 50. (Unless otherwise given explicit train orders from the dispatcher to change meet locations.)

I know what you were trying to say and unless the readers are really familiar with TT&TO it works out OK, but it just feels squishy.

We'll assume that by "timetabled meet" you mean you are clearing the time of a superior train or have a scheduled meet in the timetable.

That means that you are a regular train because an extra won't have a scheduled meet in the timetable.  Since you are in the siding, you are in the inferior direction.

I agree with the part about sections going by you.  Since you  are in the inferior direction, any section or regular train going by you has to be of a class superior to yours or the same class (in the superior direction).  More on that later.

However any extras does present a problem.  If any extra goes by you the only way they could do that is by right, conferred by train order, so they would have to have some sort of train order giving them right over you or setting a meeting point at your current location.  They can't just go by you, they (and you) have to have some paperwork.

So while you may have a scheduled meet with No 50, it you sit there for a long time, when the train not displaying signals goes by you would have to :

1.  Check that there are no other superior regular trains due or overdue.

2.  Check that all extra trains with rights over you or with meets at that station with you have arrived.  (If the last section of No 50 goes by and you have a meet or an extra with rights over you, you are still stuck.)

Then you can go.

By the way, class lights are also called signals.  In a train register there is a column labeled "Signals", a train registering writes white, green or none in that column (or a train order number, but that's another situation). 

[BigJim]

On the N&W/NS, at least since 1972, the marker for a set of lite unit/s or pusher units was the rear headlight on "Dim".
I can't tell you what year it changed. At one time the marker for a steam pusher was a "Yellow" flag.