Both the N&W and C&O handled as much freight as coal and both handle long blocks of PFE and FGE reefers loaded with fresh fruit from the West. Reefers was used to haul meats and fish as well as cheese. Some reefers was loaded with frozen TV dinners bound for a grocery distributor.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Own about 8 of those in HO scale.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
As far as flat cars railroads learn early that a gon was a better choice for most open loads since the ends would stop the load if it shifted during transit.
Even today you see far more open loads in gons instead on flatcars.
Thanks for the math help guys, like I said, math and me don't get along. This all helps me fiqure out what I want to do.
Yes there were thousands of reefers, over 160,000 of them according to the figures posted earlier. And it is quite possible they would be visually even more visible since the perishable nature of their lading usually meant expedited handling. That translates into faster cycle time than the lowly boxcar.
I reworked the percentage figures to reflect the actual totals for each category (including the privately owned). The two that changed most were the reefers and tank car fleets, reflecting the high percentage of privately owned cars. I am not sure whether the big PFE and SFRD fleets counted as railroad or privately owned, although it is inconsequential to the overall figure. I rounded the percentages.
I did find the relatively low representation of flatcars unexpected, but upon reflection realized they in fact were not very prominent in photographs I have seen from the era. It illustrates the danger of preconceived assumptions.
Boxcars 37.5% (43.53%)
Stock cars 3.5% (3.67%)
Refrigerator 7.5% (1.43%)
Flat car 4% (4.47%)
Gondola & Hopper (i.e., coal) 37% (42.51%)
Tank car 7% (.50%)
Other 3% (3.91% )
Guys & Gals:
Rrebell is absolutely right. I used the wrong numbers. That's what happens when you try to do this stuff when you're tired. The last numbers incorporate private owner cars, which boosts the percentage for reefers and tank cars significantly. The corrected percentages for 1936 are:
Boxcars 37.45%
Stock cars 3.51%
Refrigerator cars 7.37%
Flatcars 3.92%
Hoppers & Gondolas (i.e., coal & other) 37.21%
Tank cars 7.17%
Other 3.37%
As pointed out, hoppers were used for many other commodities other than coal, including various ores and types of stone. In addition, gondolas were sometimes used for coal in addition to the uses we associate with them today. Some coal customers did not have facilities to use self-clearing hoppers, and resorted to unloading gondolas with camshells and labor intensive hand shoveling. The widespread use of gondolas for coal haulage in the West has been mentioned. The development of open-top cars is very interesting. Back in the 19th century, coal and similar commodities were usually hauled in gondolas, and many roads such as PRR and Philadelphia & Reading used the letter designation G for them. Eventually some gondolas featured floor hatches or side doors to facilitate unloading. By 1900, the self-clearing hopper had been introduced, but PRR continued to use the G designation until about 1909. This accounts for PRR's numerous GL class twin hoppers. In 1909, the PRR introduced hopper cars with an H designation to differentiate them from gondolas, although some gondolas were still being built with floor hatches.
I apologize for any confusion caused by my earlier erroneous post, and I appreciate Rrebell's pointing out the error.
Tom
(edit: Also, thanks to CX500, below)
BRAKIE Guys,There was still hundreds of reefer trains bringing fresh fruit and vegetables from the West coast and hundreds of reefers came from Chicago loaded with meats for the dining room table. There had to be thousands of reefers roamimg the rails back then.
Guys,There was still hundreds of reefer trains bringing fresh fruit and vegetables from the West coast and hundreds of reefers came from Chicago loaded with meats for the dining room table.
There had to be thousands of reefers roamimg the rails back then.
Remember that the numbers I posted were 1936. Great Depression, and the advancing war had not yet heated up the economy. Also the car rules were forcing out cars with truss rods and archbar trucks (rules were postponed from time to time) and there was not much available money to build all the replacements yet. Between the belt tightening (fresh fruit and vegetables and even meat were luxuries for so many) and phasing out older cars I suspect those reefer numbers are correct but they do seem low.
I do agree that the failure to mention gondolas separately is surprising since yes not all were in coal service by a long shot.
Dave Nelson
Yes, the times were different and it is hard to see life in those terms.
ACYFarming was more localized in many parts of the country, so consumers often bought meat from local animals, and I believe per capita meat consumption was also lower than today. The frozen foods industry was also in its infancy, and more local people tended to consume more local produce
Also, families - both rural and urban - canned a lot more foods at home back then for those lean months when fresh fruits and vegetables were out of season.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Guys,Before you lump gondolas into coal service they was also used in general freight service like scrap,steel,pulpwood,lumber,pipe,machinery and other types of open loads.
And in that light we would need to break down the gons from the hopper cars and I'll bet the ruling car class was boxcars by a major landslide.
I'm not sold on that low number of reefers--their was no long distance trucking back then because the highways was still being built and the trucker's interstates was still 20-30 years away.
Your numbers are wrong, you need to use the last number in each catagory. Would do it but my math sucks bigtime, advanced philosophy anyone.
Thanks, Dknelson. I figured out the percentages for your 1936 figures:
Boxcars 43.53%
Stock cars 3.67%
Refrigerator 1.43%
Flat car 4.47%
Gondola & Hopper (i.e., coal) 42.51%
Tank car .50%
Other 3.91%
The very low percentages of stock, refrigerator, and tank cars was a bit surprising. However, a lot of oil was being transported by pipeline and coastal freighter in those days. The U-Boat menace created a serious need for tank cars during WWII. Farming was more localized in many parts of the country, so consumers often bought meat from local animals, and I believe per capita meat consumption was also lower than today. The frozen foods industry was also in its infancy, and more local people tended to consume more local produce, so I guess not so many reefers were needed.
As mentioned previously, the need for open-top hoppers and gons was pretty great, considering the fact that most locomotives burned coal in most parts of the country. In addition, coal was probably the most common fuel for home heating as well as industrial power plants.
One tantalizing question remains: What were those 73,000 "other" cars? Nearly 4% of the fleet means they constituted a significant element.
The 1939 Car Builder's Cyclopedia has numbers but not percentages
For 1936 from ICC reports:
Boxcars: 812,776 (all "steam" i.e. regular, non-interurban railways); 809,280 (Class 1s); 134 (Privately owned); 812,910 (total)
Stock cars: 68,455 (steam railways); 68,264 (class 1); 7,741 (privately owned); 76,196 (total)
Refrigerator cars: 26,703 (all steam railways); 26,617 (Class 1 railroads); 133,316 (privately owned); 160,019 (TOTAL)
Flatcars: 83,405 (all steam railways); 76,748 (Class 1s); 610 (privately owned); 85,015 (total)
Coal (no distinction between hopper or gondola): 793,776 (all steam railways); 778,250 (Class 1s); 13, 981 (privately owned); 807,757 (total).
Tank: 9,266 (all steam railways); 8,293 (class 1s); 146,298 (privately owned); 155,564 (total)
Other revenue cars: 73,000 (all steam railways); 68,284 (Class 1s); 113 (privately owned); 73,113 (total)
It is interesting how few privately owned boxcars and flatcars there were.
--------------
The '39 Cyc also has 1932 data breaking down boxcar totals into plain, furniture, automobile, ventilated, heated, and insulated. Other car types are broken down similarly but I have lost the energy to transcribe all those numbers sorry. It does not break things down into whether boxcars were steel, single sheathed, double sheathed and so on. Most of the cars shown in the Cyc are steel but that is because it featured mostly currently produced cars and by 1939 steel had taken over. Certainly there were plenty of wood boxcars into the 1950s, if photos of freight yards are a good indication. I think I saw my last single sheathed wood boxcar around 1970 or so (hide service - the lowest of the low) and the last wood ice bunker reefer in the 1970s. I have seen CB&Q composite wood and steel hoppers in revenue service photos dated 1965.
As to where that 90% boxcar figure came from, there might have been some smaller railroads where boxcars accounted for nearly 90% of their traffic - lines where the primary traffic was grain for example. I don't know if following a national car type percentage -- or even your own railroad's car type percentage - is as important as having a mix of cars that makes sense for your layout. Regular through freights might have that percentage, but locally, the presence of say a certain type of industry might skew the percentages totally. On my layout for example there would be lots of flat cars and gondolas delivering steel and lots of flatcars for outbound loads of Bucyrus Erie shovels and draglines. Only a couple of local industries got boxcars, and none got stockcars. Model a line near Lake Superior and ore jennies might be the primary car.
When I mentioned steam, I was refering to the Proto's. I also have a number od Spectrum steam but have gotten rid of most of them. Got parts for a Boxcab, proubly the only one I will build and only then if someone has not produced a good RTR. Did not know of the BLI, will check that out.
BLI makes a 3 axle Plymouth. I have the CN one for switching the Grain elevator in Portland, ME. Have not extensively tested it, but it seems to run ok. It is equipped with a traction tire, but it doesnt pull much. GE also made a few one-off centercabs for different railroads in the 1930s. They had Ingersoll-Rand engines and GE electricals. GE also made 60 and 100ton Boxcab switchers. I have not seen these even in brass. If you don't already have them P2K 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s would be a good addition. The Bachmann 0-6-0 can even be made workable (made a working front coupler for one link here)
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/231420.aspx
BMMECNYC rrebell Also I am OK with an S-4 as iit was mainly the same but different truck which was avalible in 1939 if they had wanted to use it. You would actually be looking for the S-2. S-1 and S-3 are the 660HP Alco switchers, main difference being the trucks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_S-1_and_S-3 S-2 and S-4 are the turbocharged 1000HP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_S-2_and_S-4 Edit: Also add GE 44ton, EMD SC and Plymouth switchers to your list. Pre 1940 switchers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_Winton-engined_switchers
rrebell Also I am OK with an S-4 as iit was mainly the same but different truck which was avalible in 1939 if they had wanted to use it.
You would actually be looking for the S-2. S-1 and S-3 are the 660HP Alco switchers, main difference being the trucks. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_S-1_and_S-3
S-2 and S-4 are the turbocharged 1000HP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALCO_S-2_and_S-4
Edit:
Also add GE 44ton, EMD SC and Plymouth switchers to your list.
Pre 1940 switchers here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_Winton-engined_switchers
rrebellAlso I am OK with an S-4 as iit was mainly the same but different truck which was avalible in 1939 if they had wanted to use it.
Yea, I converted an older Walthers SW1 to DCC. I had to mill a longer groove in the frame to isolate the motor. I ended up using a Lenz Silver MP decoder for the install and had to remove the interior cab details and modify the hood (that slipped into the cab section) to get it all to fit. Worth the time & effort though.
tstage rrebell What I am going for is the general feel of the late 1930's, even though things like the S-1 diesel were first sold in 1940, they existed in 1939, just not up for sale yet (what you think they just started producing it with no testing etc.). Also I am OK with an S-4 as iit was mainly the same but different truck which was avalible in 1939 if they had wanted to use it. And the following would also be appropriate for that time period: Alco HH600/660 (Atlas) - Built 1932-39 Balwin VO-660/VO-1000 (Stewart) - Built 1939-46 EMC SW1 (Walthers) - Built 1936-39 Tom
rrebell What I am going for is the general feel of the late 1930's, even though things like the S-1 diesel were first sold in 1940, they existed in 1939, just not up for sale yet (what you think they just started producing it with no testing etc.). Also I am OK with an S-4 as iit was mainly the same but different truck which was avalible in 1939 if they had wanted to use it.
What I am going for is the general feel of the late 1930's, even though things like the S-1 diesel were first sold in 1940, they existed in 1939, just not up for sale yet (what you think they just started producing it with no testing etc.). Also I am OK with an S-4 as iit was mainly the same but different truck which was avalible in 1939 if they had wanted to use it.
And the following would also be appropriate for that time period:
Yeah, I can see trying to avoid being too specific. But consider the various insights offered. A national statistic isn't nearly as useful as a regional look at what's going on. Whatever your RR does, unless it's a rare isolated line like the WP&Y or Alaska RR, it interchanges with at least one other line or has traffic that at least flows through to yours in some manner. So it might pay to pay attention to regional patterns and differences.
One example that comes to mind is from the steam and transition eras. Many Western RRs used drop-bottom GS gons to haul coal. They were useful for other purposes in the non-heating season is I think the main reason. Eastern roads tended to rely on hopper cars to move coal. By the 60s, Western roads had also adopted hoppers in preference to GS gons and they faded away except in MOW and other company service after that.
That's just one small segment of your car fleet. Worth exploring to give you a better idea of what might suit your tastes best.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thanks alot for the info. I understand the average numbers mean nothing to a specific railroad but when you are going for a timeframe and modeling a generic railroad (though I try to buy SP livery, my railroad is not modeled on the SP at all, just happened to be what I aquired most of).
The 1946-49 stats cited by Kline and Culotta were for the entire North American continent, and included private owner cars as well as those owned by the carriers. Many cars, especially tank cars and refrigerator cars, were privately owned, and are included in those totals.
Modern auto racks, spine cars, and most of the covered hopper fleet, represent technology that didn't exist in the time period mentioned by the O.P.
I agree that photos of trains, preferably including the entire train, can be a big help in deciding what cars are appropriate for a particular RR, time period, or region. A friend of mine actually was fortunate enough to obtain a complete file of one month's Conductor's Wheel Reports for the shortline he was modeling. That's the Holy Grail.
I thought 36% sounded a bit low for boxcars too, but then I thought about the massive amounts of coal being shipped for use in heating plants nationwide. Then I thought about the needs of the steel industry for gondolas and hoppers. The totals for reefers and tank cars seemed a bit low, but those are the published numbers.
That 36% seems really low for boxcars and judging by the period photos of freight yards dating back to the 30s that 36% may be more like 70% since the majority of freight went by boxcar back then.
While interesting, the national or even railroad totals don't mean much as far as what cars should be on your layout. The classic example is the UP in Ft Worth TX. If you look at the N-S line through Ft Worth its a lot of covered hoppers, unit coal trains, and general merchandise traffic with a bit of auto racks. If you look at the E-W line its heavily intermodal, auto racks and general merchandise with almost no bulk covered hopper business and no unit coal trains. Same railroad, same city, but two completely different car mixes.
Another thing that is not really evident from the car fleet statistics is the private owner fleet. If you are modeling the 1930's that will be mostly tank cars and reefers, but if you are modeling the 2000's private owner cars can make up 50-60% of the cars in your trains.
The best bet is to look at photos of trains in your area and learn about the industries served to determine the car mix.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I have looked through a couple ORER's and found little bits of useful info, but a truly accurate picture can only be gained by tabulating each type of car for each road and adding thousands of numbers in hundreds if not thousands of categories. I'm not gonna do that. Fortunately, it was already done in "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" by Ted Culotta and the late Larry Kline, published by the NMRA, 2006.
The work does not break down the totals in quite the way you have requested, but it should help. The book says that in the late 1940's (1946-49), the U.S. freight car fleet was comprised of:
Box/Auto cars 36.4%
Hopper (open and covered) 27.1%
Gondola 16.5%
Tank 7.1%
Refrigerator 6.7%
Stock, incl. poultry 2.7%
Flat 3.5%
These totals can be deceptive. Coal hauling roads such as N&W, C&O, VGN, PRR, RDG, B&O, etc. had disproportionately large rosters of open hoppers for coal service. Covered hoppers were rare before the 1950's, being used principally for cement and similar commodities. Widespread use of covered hoppers for grain and powdered chemicals began in the 1950's and didn't become truly widespread until the 1960's. Those commodities generally traveled in boxcars, often in bags. Western roads tended to own more stock cars than Eastern roads. Gondolas were widely used for most non-liquid items that wouldn't conveniently go into a boxcar or hopper.
For numbers of specific car types and lengths and construction standards, it is necessary to go to more detailed sources such as ORER's, railroad historical societies, etc.
The person who suggested 90% were boxcars is so far off the mark that I would be suspicious of just about any other info you find in that source.