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Question on Grand Trunk Western Passenger Trains

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Question on Grand Trunk Western Passenger Trains
Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:11 PM

Would Grand Trunk Western passenger trains ever include any Canadian National passenger cars?

If so, would any Canadian National passenger cars be found on Grand Trunk Western passenger trains at Dearborn Station in Chicago in the 1950's?

Thanks.

Rich 

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Posted by rws1225 on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:16 AM

yes

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, September 25, 2011 6:43 AM

Thanks, rws1225, for that "yes" answer.  I had hoped for more, but at least that answer inspired me to research the issue even more.

I did find some information on the Rapido Trains Inc. web site that indicated different car assignments from 1956 to 1961 in which CN passenger cars were added to GTW passenger trains headed to Chicago including the Maple Leaf, the Inter City Limited, the International Limited, and the LaSalle.

Here is that link:

http://www.rapidotrains.com/schemes_ho/cn5.html

Rich

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Posted by rws1225 on Monday, September 26, 2011 7:23 AM

Only answered briefly because I remember watching trains in the early 60s in Royal Oak MI with some CN head end cars and sometimes coaches.  At that time there were also commuter trains but they were all GTW heavy weights.

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, September 26, 2011 4:50 PM

I know that another CN US-subsidiary, the Duluth Winnepeg and Pacific, often used CN cars and locomotives on their passenger trains. There were some limitations re crossing the border, I believe a CN car or engine coming from Canada had to be returned to Canada within 24 (or 48?) hours.

As I recall the DWP had an SW-7 CN switcher that was assigned to (I think?) Virginia Minnesota for many years, but it was OK to stay in the US because it was built by GM in the US rather than GMD in Canada.

Stix
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Posted by cx500 on Monday, September 26, 2011 5:40 PM

I can't give any specific details, but there were through sleepers from Canada (Toronto and probably Montreal) in that era and I think it almost certain that some would have been lettered for CN.  Some of those may also have small Pullman stencils.  I'm sure other types of cars (diners, baggage, coach, parlour) would also be in the international pool, but don't know details. 

John

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Posted by U-3-b on Monday, October 10, 2011 11:38 AM

GTW did not have any sleepers so any sleeper on a CN/GTW through train would be CN.  Every once in a while you would see some CN head end cars on the Maple Leaf, International Limited and the Intercity Limited, usually express refers.  While I have not seen CN coaches on these trains it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.  Dinners were GTW and usually did not cross the border, they were pulled off in Lansing. 

 

I hope that this helps.

 

Steve

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, October 10, 2011 3:55 PM

U-3-b
GTW did not have any sleepers so any sleeper on a CN/GTW through train would be CN.  Every once in a while you would see some CN head end cars on the Maple Leaf, International Limited and the Intercity Limited, usually express refers.  While I have not seen CN coaches on these trains it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.  Dinners were GTW and usually did not cross the border, they were pulled off in Lansing. 
 
I hope that this helps.
 
Steve

Steve,

That is very interesting.  Thanks for posting that info.

Rich

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Posted by U-3-b on Monday, October 10, 2011 9:18 PM

Rich,

 

Not that I am an expert or anything of the sort, I just have some good sources. I was glad I could help you a little. 

 

Steve

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Posted by Whlrydr on Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:07 PM
I used to take the La Salle from Port Huron to Chicago in the early 60's. CN sleeper Green Bush (#501) was the Green & Black car used in this Chicago-bound train. Rapido made this car last year. Hope this helps. Do some deeper sleuthing; there are folks out there that have made it their "niche" by focussing on this particular train.
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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, February 21, 2013 11:26 PM

After posting that thread back in 2011, I purchased 5 Rapido passenger cars to build the Inter City Limited from Port Huron to Chicago.

Two of the cars were GTW parlor cars, Silver Lake and Diamond Lake, and three of the cars were CN sleepers, Greenshields, Green Point and Green Bush.

 Rich

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Posted by jrbernier on Friday, February 22, 2013 7:41 PM

 Usually this was a 24 US rule.  If it operated continuously in the US - There were tax implications.  The DW&P's passenger train operated as a 'turn' out of Ft Francis, and the entire train was back in Canada within 24 hours.  The steam passenger train was replaced by a DW&P RDC-3.

  IIRC, NW2 #7902 was lettered for Canadian National, but was originally  a GTW engine, so it may have been exempt.

  The Soo Line also used CP passenger cars on the Soo-Dominion and Winnipeger.  I have even seen a pair of CP passenger GP7's at St Paul Union Depot.

Jim

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by Whlrydr on Friday, February 22, 2013 8:08 PM

Good stuff. The La Salle got me into Dearborn pretty early the next morning. I had to catch the Rocky Mountain Rocket out of the La Salle St station later that afternoon. 

That consist you put together, was that the newer post white CN sided cars? Also, the train I took was in 1961, green and black. Do you know if the motive power used GP9's or FP's? The Pinkepank book shows GTW 4900's. I'd like to follow your lead and pair up a power unit correct to that early 1961 era.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 23, 2013 6:07 AM

Whlrydr

That consist you put together, was that the newer post white CN sided cars? Also, the train I took was in 1961, green and black. Do you know if the motive power used GP9's or FP's? The Pinkepank book shows GTW 4900's. I'd like to follow your lead and pair up a power unit correct to that early 1961 era.

The five passenger cars are matching green and black, two GTW and three CN, all from Rapido.

My motive power is a pair of Intermountain F3A's.

From my limited research, I have not been able to determine whether this was an exact reproduction of the prototype.  But, I had little choice with what was available out there in HO scale at the time that I was building this train.

Rich

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Posted by U-3-b on Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:08 PM

As far as I know these trains were power by GP-9's until the late 60's.  The F-3's that the GTW had were freight units that were used on passenger specials every once in a while but not on regular trains.

Steve  

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 25, 2013 5:09 AM

Bummer.

But, I wanted some GTW/CN passenger cars and some GTW motive power, so I had no choice but to grabs those two F3's when and where I could find them.

Rich

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Posted by U-3-b on Monday, February 25, 2013 7:56 PM

Rich,

The rumor mill has it that in the not too distant future there will be some GTW GP-9's coming out in HO so you may be ok.  Not sure if they will be Green and Gold or Black and Red but either would be good 1961.

Steve

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:56 AM

U-3-b

Rich,

The rumor mill has it that in the not too distant future there will be some GTW GP-9's coming out in HO so you may be ok.  Not sure if they will be Green and Gold or Black and Red but either would be good 1961.

Steve

Steve,

Any idea who the manufacturer of the GTW GP-9's might be?

The other difiiculty with modeling GTW passenger trains is the absence of GTW passenger cars.

Rich

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Posted by Whlrydr on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:31 PM

Very true. My April 29, 1962 GTW Timetable lists the westbound train out of Toronto to Chicago (the La Salle) as having the Green Bush 6-6-4 sleeper and coaches, with a diner being dropped at Port Huron. Made sense, since all dining was over by the time the train reached Port Huron at around 10:00PM.  Probably wouldn't be all that unusual to have a GTW marked coach or two in that consist although the bet would be CN coaches. Either way would be correct, whatcha think? 

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Posted by U-3-b on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:28 PM

Rich,

I have heard that Athearn was interested in doing a run. I know people who have supplied photos and drawings to them.  We'll have to see if it happens or not.

Now as far as passenger cars go there are some really nice brass kits out there.  http://www.nkpcarco.com/ makes four GTW kits.  Also BGR group makes all kinds of resin CN kits http://home.cogeco.ca/~bgrgroup/ Plus Athabasca Shops makes GTW and CN cars http://www.athabascashops.com/ 

None of these are cheap, but they are nice kits and make a really nice looking train.

Steve
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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 8:33 PM

Steve,

Thanks for that info on the Athearn possibility and also on the brass kits.

Help me understand something, if you will.

I looked at the web sites for those brass kits.  All of them require me to paint the GTW color scheme, correct?

Rich

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Posted by U-3-b on Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:33 PM

Rich,

That is a short coming of these kits.  If you are not a painter now, there is no time better time to learn than the present.  Plus there are always people who would paint them for you if you didn't want to learn.

Steve

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Posted by rrboomer on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 12:04 AM

When I worked for the GTW in '64-65 I can remember a set of CN FP7's running thru to Chicago,  but they had to return on the very next eastward passenger train.  It happened because the GTW units got blocked behind a derailment in Toronto,  it may very well have been an all CN equipment train.

The GTW also had some 4100 series GP9's that had steam pipes and passenger gearing,  around the holidays they could be seen as third units on GTW trains.

In the '60's (I don't know about before) all the GT and CV GP9's went to Battle Creek when due heavy shop work.  When released from the shop they would make a round trip to Elsdon as a "Shake down cruise" before going back east. 

Dick Haave

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Posted by CN Modeller on Tuesday, May 20, 2014 8:48 PM

richhotrain

After posting that thread back in 2011, I purchased 5 Rapido passenger cars to build the Inter City Limited from Port Huron to Chicago.

Two of the cars were GTW parlor cars, Silver Lake and Diamond Lake, and three of the cars were CN sleepers, Greenshields, Green Point and Green Bush.

 Rich

 

The Rapido models for the parlor buffet cars are not correct for Diamond/Silver Lake. These two cars had a different floor plan than the Rapido model which is based on the CN 20 seat prlor cars. The GTW cars had 22 parlor car seats. The resulted in the buffet being located more cetrally, giving a different window configuration. THe GTW cacars underwent 4 recofigurations over their lives. The last rebiuldings removed the one the end vestibules to make room for lounge section.If you really want to delve deeper into this fascinating world of CN/GTW passenger cars I suggest you take a look at the 2 volumes titled Canadian National -Passenger Equipment by Lepkey/West pubblished by the Bytown Railway Society.Volume 16 of "The Official P/S Library" by Randall/Anderson provides side elevations and floor plans for theCN/GTW cars built in 1954 of which Silver/ Diamond  Lake were part of the order. AS for CN coaches running into Chicargo there is photographic evidence confirming this was a regular occurrence. Reference to CN sleepers running through from Montrealis correct with both the "green" series and "e" seriies being used on the Maple Leaf. Motive powere was always either GTW GP9s or GP18s in the 4900 series (Steam generator equipped, non-dymamic brake, air tanks on the roof). Coincidentaly I hve modelled the Maple Leaf which essentially is the successor of the International Ltd. and LaSalle on my own layout. I kitbashed a model of Silver Lake using Riarossi/AHM sttreamlined, smooth side coach bodies.The sleepers were built from brass car sides photo etch comonents. Hope this clarifies a few things for everyone who has written in.

CN Modeller  

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:27 AM

That is a recurring problem with Rapido cars.  Don't get me wrong, I love them, but they don't match the prototype.

At least the color schemes are close.

They are about to release a set of 5 Monon coaches which I will grab for the roadname and red/gray color scheme, but they are not close to matching the prototype.

Rich

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