I would suggest to at least investigate the steel. I have used it in interior remodeling and it is very good, goes together fast especially with a screw gun. It is a little more expensive, but you don't spend weeks sorting lumber.
If you want to use lumber, buy it as far ahead as you can and store where the layout will be. Weeks is good, months is better. Now if you can find a local guy with a planer, you can have him skin the lumber through the planer which will eliminate little twists and curves so you won't have to pull it straight. Discard anything not up to par.
I have seen several failures with ripped ply, even when glued. The end grain isn't great for taking glue either, at least in the lesser grades. Any place you have a critical joint, I would brace it with a piece of 1"x glued and screwed into the joint. Doesn't take long and may keep the table from collapsing when you're on it.
BigRusty wrote: Speaking of metal, I am also looking into steel studs.
I'm sorry I just had to smile at the thought of someone who's screen name is "BigRusty" advocating the use of steel.
Thanks for the smile, Have fun & be safe,Karl.
Having just erected the table that will support one of my mainline stations and a hidden reverse loop, I've been smiling all the way through reading this post.
In my neck of the desert, plywood versus dimension lumber translates to corkscrews versus sections of salad bowl. When the humidity varies between zero and nonexistant, NO wood product is dimensionally stable.
My answer is - steel! (Nominal) 2x4 C girders (16 gage steel studs on edge) supported as Westcott described (10 foot girder, 6 foot span) by 2x4 (straightest of the old, dry wood in my garage) legs with levelers (3/8" lag screws) at the bottom. Joists are (nominal) 2x3 steel studs, risers are butchered from odd bits of steel stud, plywood subgrade is beaten into submission by a liberal application of steel angle iron.
Believe it or not, my benchwork isn't very heavy, and my main tool is a pair of tin snips. Parts are held together with 1/2" no 8 screws. Starting with raw (and some recycled) material, legs, girders and joists went together in a morning.
Source of the recycled material? My original half-a-garage layout. Now that I have title to the entire garage, the old benchwork wasn't suitable to re-use intact. That's the other advantage of steel - it recycles! Even the screws can be re-used.
Chuck (who obviously swears by steel)
I have built a large (25' x 50' arround the walls) basement layout of modular sections using 3/4" AC plywood. The lumber yard ripped the plywood into 3.5" strips for free. My modular sections were mostly 6' long and varried between 18" and 30" in width. I bolted the modular sections together with 1/2" bolts and wing nuts. This allows me to take a section out of the layout to work on it. I have a chop saw and pre-cut the 8' x 3.5" strips into specific sizes to make the modules. I can then make quite a number of 6 foot modules in an evening. I use drywall screws and yellow carpenter's glue to assemble the modules.
Works great for me.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
Hello all,
Hopefully a slot car guy can get in the middle of this....I bought Linn Westcott's book and it is a gem! I have a 6' x 12' table with an 'L' girder frame. I used 1 x 3's with a 1 x 2 top flange for my girder. I even had to go with 6 foot lengths for my girders and spliced them because I sold my F150 and only have an Accord now, hehe.
I then used 1 x 4's as my joist system running perpendicular to, and right on top of my girders. My legs are made of 2 x 4's (could have used 2 x 2's but I wanted castors and they fit on 2 x 4's better) with 1 x 3 bracing. I ran my leg bracing in an 'X' pattern for my leg 'set' and made sure they were more than half way down the leg. I just made them long enough to be 8 inches off the floor.
I then had 1 x 3 long bracing going from the bottom of the legs to the girders along the length of the table. I made sure that I had a 45 degree angle with these braces (again, about 8 inches from the floor on the leg)....and then added 8 inch gussets where the long brace meets the leg.
My two leg 'sets' were placed at the one-fith and four-fifths interval under my 1 x 3 + 1 x 2 girders (which are 12 feet long). My girders (and the width of the leg system) followed the same one-fifth/four-fifths rule under the joists (which are 6 feet long)....but in a couple places my joists are a little longer, which is ok. Everything is glued and screwed with #7 x 1-5/8 deck screws. I could have used #8 1-1/4 deck screws but couldn't find them at the time. My joists and bracing is just soft wood, and I splurged on the girders and got red oak. I did that only because they already had that in 1 x 2's and I didn't want to rip anything (lazy). So....I got 1 x 3's in red oak too and glued and screwed them. Westcott's book says you can remove the screws from the girders after the glue dries, but I left them in.
I have3 sheets of 15/32 x 4' x 6' B-C plywood (I like the sanded side) on top of my joists with my 4 lane slot car track on that. It's in a semi-cookie cutter method, meaning that my plywood is cut so that it raises with my elevations.
So...my two leg 'sets' are 29 inches in from each end of the 12 foot length of the table, and they are 43 inches wide with approx. 14 inches of overhang on each side giving me my 6 foot table width.
It's all in my garage in Northern Mississippi (where 'wet heat' was invented, hehe) and no sag. I got all my supplies at Home Depot because our Lowe's didn't have a very good selection of lumber.
I'm planning to modify my layout so that I can marry my HO train set to my HO slot car track. I plan on keeping the same frame and pulling up some of the plywood and making it a true cookie cutter system. My layout will be patterned after a twisty four lane highway and train route in the Southern Appalachians.
Hope that helps,
Mike/Nightshade
Great work. Too bad I can't use that great helix in a mountain trick for the flat NHRR. Back to the Question. If you buy water proof, finished one side 3/4 inch plywood you will have the best non-metal structure material available. HD and most others will give you one rip free. Have it ripped down the middle lengthwise. This makes it much easier to transport, and handle whether using a table saw or hand power saw. Give him the exact dimension. That will yield 13 8 ft 1 x 3s allowing for saw kerfs.
Speaking of metal, I am also looking into steel studs. They are pre-cut, no ripping necessary and can be easily screwed together with self tapping screws. Several prior posts have discussed this as well as a MRR article last year. I think that for areas with variable humidity and temperature, steel might be the best way to go.
I too am a woodworker, and prefer using ripped plywood instead of 1x pine.
A couple notes, always rip the plywood in the direction of the face grain. It's strongest along that axis. Always use glue in the joints. Yellow carpenters glue is fine, you don't need the exotic poly glues, like Gorilla Glue. I have also forgone screws for air driven nails. It's faster and the nails hold better in the plywood's endgrain.
Cost wise, plywood will come out cheaper, but you have add in the time to machine the pieces. The plywood's cross-laminated ply's yield a stronger structural member then 1x lumber.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Glad to see that you have time to re-join the group; your layout input is important. I hope that whatever has been keeping you away, has resolved itself and was not painful (in any sense).
Not painful--not really anyway. I'm just in the process of starting a holistic health practice and going to school for my naturopathic degree. I might be a little scarce for about a year, since I am putting full effort into these two endevors.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote:My background is building furniture and kitchen remodel work and I simply use "good" woodworking construction methods and materials for my bench work. Some examples (for reference only) are at" http://www.calanb.com/kitchens1.html I retired from kitchen work in June of this year and got back into HO trains then (after a 13 year absence). Nice work. I was in construction in a former life. I did a lot of finish work, but no cabinets except in my own home. Did a bit of furniture though--mostly for fun. Now I only work with wood when there is a gun to my head. But when I do, you can bet it is solid with no wasted effort. Edit. Alan, Did you screw it or staple it?
My background is building furniture and kitchen remodel work and I simply use "good" woodworking construction methods and materials for my bench work. Some examples (for reference only) are at" http://www.calanb.com/kitchens1.html I retired from kitchen work in June of this year and got back into HO trains then (after a 13 year absence).
http://www.calanb.com/kitchens1.html
I retired from kitchen work in June of this year and got back into HO trains then (after a 13 year absence).
Nice work. I was in construction in a former life. I did a lot of finish work, but no cabinets except in my own home. Did a bit of furniture though--mostly for fun. Now I only work with wood when there is a gun to my head. But when I do, you can bet it is solid with no wasted effort.
Edit. Alan, Did you screw it or staple it?
Thanks.
The RR benchwork is glued and screwed. About all I use staples for is "rough" work that will be out of sight and "to hold the joint together until the glue drys".
I agree with Fred. Use the plywood as the web in an L-girder design and 1x2 or 1x3 as the flange. You might be able to use the plywood as the flange, but be sure to use glue (resorcinol resin is what is used between the plys) in addition to screws. Plywood is not so stable as it will warp and twist like dimensional lumber. The stresses between the plys can make it curvy. Ever see a twisted draught of plywood? Only very heavy furniture grade, birch ply (3/4" at least) has some stability.
I know that there was a trend toward "lightweight" construction, but when I had to stand on the table to change an overhead lightbuld, I knew I made the right decision about how strong it should be.
Good luck on your construction.
fwright wrote: tstage wrote:I agree with Chip and Alan. The plywood will be more stable over time than the dimensional lumber because of the cross-hatching of the plies.I used straight 1 x 3s on my 4 x 8 layout. Even with a foam top the 8' long side rails have drooped slightly in the middle in 2+ years so that my yard area isn't completely level.If I were to use dimensional wood again, I would definitely make two 4 x 4 frames then bolt them together to minimize the sagging. I'd also include another support in the middle of the table.Tom Tom I won't disagree with the plywood's stability compared to lumber. I've never tried the ripped plywood method. However, neither a 3/4x3 plywood strip nor a 1x3 piece of lumber can support an 8ft span without some sagging over time. One of the benefits of the L-girder (or I beams or other girders) system is increasing the supportable span with a very modest increase in lumber used. One of Westcott's goals with the L-girder system was to get rid of the multitude of legs required in conventional box frame construction to prevent the sagging you cite. The chart of supportable spans by lumber dimensions in Westcott's benchwork books by itself justifies the book's purchase. I refer to the table all the time when planning my benchwork. I have built two 4x8 tables with unpainted 1x4 L-girders (with 1x2 flanges) that have lasted decades through numerous moves and climate changes (and even garage flooding!) without sagging or warping. In one case, I successfully turned the L-girder flange down and installed the joists between the L-girders to reduce benchwork thickness. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
tstage wrote:I agree with Chip and Alan. The plywood will be more stable over time than the dimensional lumber because of the cross-hatching of the plies.I used straight 1 x 3s on my 4 x 8 layout. Even with a foam top the 8' long side rails have drooped slightly in the middle in 2+ years so that my yard area isn't completely level.If I were to use dimensional wood again, I would definitely make two 4 x 4 frames then bolt them together to minimize the sagging. I'd also include another support in the middle of the table.Tom
Tom
I won't disagree with the plywood's stability compared to lumber. I've never tried the ripped plywood method.
However, neither a 3/4x3 plywood strip nor a 1x3 piece of lumber can support an 8ft span without some sagging over time. One of the benefits of the L-girder (or I beams or other girders) system is increasing the supportable span with a very modest increase in lumber used. One of Westcott's goals with the L-girder system was to get rid of the multitude of legs required in conventional box frame construction to prevent the sagging you cite. The chart of supportable spans by lumber dimensions in Westcott's benchwork books by itself justifies the book's purchase. I refer to the table all the time when planning my benchwork.
I have built two 4x8 tables with unpainted 1x4 L-girders (with 1x2 flanges) that have lasted decades through numerous moves and climate changes (and even garage flooding!) without sagging or warping. In one case, I successfully turned the L-girder flange down and installed the joists between the L-girders to reduce benchwork thickness.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
The L-girder is very strong. What I did was most of a torsion box design (no bottom skin on mine). I did use three legs in my layout so that no wide lower level section ran over 4' without some support (wall or leg). My upper town is 2' x 6.5' and is supported only on one long side and both ends. I did firmly attach a 1/2" ply top surface. It does not sag and I would expect it to still be level when my daughter has an estate sale (hopefully many years from now).
My background is building furniture and kitchen remodel work and I simply use "good" woodworking construction methods and materials for my bench work. Some examples (for reference only) are at"
Plywood has the advantages cited, and L-girders are the same. I have used 2X4 extensively, and would not do it again. I am currently hardshelling an open frame with L-girders and am very pleasantly pleased with their stability. I purchased 1X4 clear spruce, and ripped some of them down the middle for the flanges on the L-girders. So far, it has done quite nicely.
That said, there is great wisdom in carefully selecting the dimensional lumber and thereafter letting it sit for at least one week in a carefully humidity and temp controlled space...such as what your layout space will be...ideally. So, since I use a basement with twin dehumidiers working around the clock cyclically, that was the place to lie the boards flat and let them sit to find out which would twist during their drying time. With essentially tightly sprung and close-fitting sections of spline roadbed, God help me if I lose power for more than a couple of days...although I do have a small Coleman generator.
If I were to not use the L-girders, it would have been at least 5/8" plywood, no question. You'd have to plan the construction carefully, though, to avoid butting ends and hoping to screw them together. You'll have to use corner blocks of 1 1/2" square lumber in the insides of the corners.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
The laminating process is time consuming and has some risks. I assume you are using 1/2" because you have it.
The disadvatage with plywood is that it does not hold screws in the end or side grain as well, though you can build a whole layout with out end grain if you work at it.
jwwhite wrote:I'm trying to decide between using dimensional lumber vs. ripping plywood into laminated beams. Either 1 X 4 dimensional lumber or laminating ripped 1 X 3 x 1/2 plywood into 1 X 3 x 1 structural members. I'll be building an around-the-wall configuration with a nominal 2 foot depth. Can anyone share their experiences on one vs. the other from cost, ease-of-use, and strength perspectives? Thanks!
I ripped 3/4 ply into 3.5" width for structure and covered with 1/2" ply decking for the two towns and the long shelf leadins on my layout. For the mountain areas, I used 3/4" decking over ripped ply framework. There is no sag and I could stand on the layout (if necessary).
The ply is more dimensionally stable and actually ends up cheaper than 1x4 lumber. I used a cheap birch cabinet ply from HD; not the rough sheathing or decking plywood.
The end results (as of Sunday) are shown in the following thread; with earlier work in the thread referred to in the first post in that thread.
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/897748/ShowPost.aspx
Call me new school then. I plan of going the 3/4 plwood route. You can be guaranteed the plywood will be and remain straight while dimential lumber is never straight and will warp with moisture change. The downside, some will say, is that plywood cannot be screwed from the end. This depends on the quality of the plywood and pilot drilling. If you get ABX and pilot drill a hole 2/3 the diameter of the of the screw, you shouldn't have a problem.
I prefer the circular saw to the table saw for ripping because the plywood is heavy, bulky and difficult to control. Instead, I use a straight edge and a circular saw. I find that using two vice-grip clamps and a straight edge (or a straight edge with built in clamps) as a rip guide to be quite easy and accurate.
I'm from the old school and have always used 1x4 or 1x3 pine lumber for my benchwork. It's worked well for me, but then I've taken the time to pick through the piles at the lumber yard to find the best pieces and have allowed them to acclimate to my trainroom environment for several weeks before using them in the bench work.
I have read that ripped plywood is more stable than dimensional lumber, but you have the added work of ripping the plywood either with a circular saw or on a table saw and, in what you're proposing, the additional work of laminating two pieces together. Since 1x lumber is actually only 3/4" thick, have you thought of buying 3/4" plywood and ripping it into 3" wide strips? This would save you the laminating step. I don't know the cost differential between 1/2" and 3/4" plywood, so it depends on how you value your time. Of course, I've spent a fair amount of my time picking through 1x lumber at lumber yards, Lowes and Home Depot. If you decide to use pine lumber, check in your area for independent lumber yards which may stock a better grade of dimensional lumber than Lowes or Home Depot. In any case, don't use finger-jointed 1x lumber as structural members in your benchwork. I've been told the glued joints in this lumber will come apart if stressed. It's designed for use in building trim work where it is only used for appearance.
Hope this helps,
Bob