Newbie asks: to DCC or not to DCC?

[Texas Zepher]

DCC is a mystery to me.

That is probably because you are making it harder than it is.  There is nothing mysterious or hard about it.  Hook two wires from the DCC unit to the track.  Put on a loco with a DCC decoder.  Call up locomotive #3 on the DCC unit. Run the train.   But the true simplicity comes with the 2nd locomotive.  Instead of having to figure out complex wiring schemes with block selector switches etc., one simply programs the 2nd locomotive to a different number than 3.  Call up that number on the DCC unit.  Run the train.

I'm planning a medium size layout with single track main and two small yards. I plan on mostly operating by myself, with one train on the main while one switches, or occasionally a local and a passenger train on the main. Occasionally I might have others join me for operation. Given those plans, is DCC for me?

The only time I still recommend DC is for layouts that will ever only have exactly one locomotive and one operator.  What you described is way over that threshold.  

I'm a little nervous about getting into the expense of DCC, but the flexibility is appealing.

Perhaps you should consider the cost of old fashion block wiring.  Have you priced a good quality SPDT switch lately?  And that would be for just two trains what about a SP3T or SP4T?   DCC is not expensive anymore.  For what one gets it is way cheap.

Once one gets on a layout where the engineer can concentrate on running the train and not controlling the track (with all those stupid block selector switches) they almost always wonder why they didn't convert sooner.

I've been a firm believer in command control since 1980 when it was very expensive.  The electronics used to cost more than the locomotives.  Decoders have dropped in price from $50 each to $12 each, and that's not even acounting for 27 years of inflation. 

[JulesB]

Thanks for the helpful advice everyone, especially the link to the pdf at Tony's Trains, I've printed that out.

Do your self a favor and order, buy, steal, borrow or aquirer any way you can, Don Fiemann's " The DCC Guide". It's a new book. I got it at a show for $16.95. It's published buy Model Railroader books. Explains and gives a good over view of the popular DCC systems out there.

Guy's seem to have a problem with track buses,feeders etc.

It's simple!

If you laid a ladder down on the ground, then stood it up side way's so it's still horizontal. The top would be the track, the rungs the feeders, the bottom the bus. You would need two of em, one for each track! Thats the best way to picture the track feeder and bus relationship. Whats nice is if you had 4 of them you could form a tee and continue on arond the layout with some more of em, as long as the tracks and buses connect to each other. You can T or Y the tracks and buses, best not to make a loop tho.

You may form blocks for transponding etc., but thats beyond basic DCC track wiring. I don't do transponding but I do have two power districts. So about half my layout (the yard and ind.) is seperated by insulated rail joiners, each district is fed from the same command station/booster but thru a different PSX solid state circuit breaker.

Some of my Fastracks turnouts are controlled by DS64's, some by WabbitFB's from Digital Specealties. I build em, nail em down, they work. Tortois swich machines rock!

Basic DCC wiring is not at all complicated until you go transponding or fancy signalling, just like DC.

 

Jules

 

[rfross]

There are a number of threads here and on other sites regarding problems wth DCC. I'm an IT guy by day and play with trains at night. And the last thing I want to deal with is supporting more technical stuff while at home.

So I recently chose to go DC for my new 2-rail O-scale shelf switching layout even though I sold of all my HO stuff and am starting from scratch. Why? It's simple and relatively inexpensive, especially when compared to purchasing a high horsepower DCC system that will work with my O-scale locomotives.

I also like the old school idea of having some toggles to flip. And the fact that my DC wiring can theoretically support DCC in the future will allow me to easily upgrade to a future generation of DCC.

[tomikawaTT]

It is easy to convert a layout that has been wired for DC to DCC.  The reverse is most emphatically NOT true!

How many pieces of powered rolling stock from your earlier modeling have survived in operating condition?  They ran on DC then, and they should do so now.  For the price of one switch per block, you can wire for two train operation - and decent-quality switches can be had for a buck each (plus s&h) from one reputable on-line electronics firm I deal with.  MRC still has DC power packs, including some with momentum and separate brakes.

OTOH, if you are starting from zero, it would probably be better to go DCC to start with.  Just use it for running trains.  Granted it can operate turnouts - but so can fingers, and they don't need decoders or addresses you have to remember.  (I won't repeat my thoughts about using DCC to switch structure lamps and streetlights!!!)

Just my .  Other opinions will probably differ.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)

[hubbards98]

Hate to bring up and old topic, but being brand new to this I decided on DCC...I figure I may as well learn the state of the art equipment then learn the the other stuff...I really think for me that I will have more fun with it

(as soon as I figure out exactly what IT is

[conrail92]

Like i said before I use Prodigy Express on my layout and it offers power and capabilties at a low cost I used to use DC but i got tired of try to work with endless switches to turn power on and off tracks and trying to do baisic switching. Eith Prodigy Express it have easy upgrading capabilties. and great for small - mid size layouts

[Tilden]

You can convert anything to DCC. Yes, that includes old Athearn Blue Boxes. If you don't have all the switches, controls, amps and controls for DC, the cost between the two is probally a push. DCC is getting easier and easier, a great deal of progress has been made in just the last three years. I really think DCC is useful for small layouts too. Actually, I would steer away from really basic beginner units and go with a system that allows expansion or use of most or all of the options available in DCC. Generally you'll find when you can do more you want to do more.
Best of luck and ENJOY.

[ARTHILL]

pirateyar and others. REMEMBER - you can run DC engines on DCC as address 00 - even the old brass stuff. The only limitation is only one at a time. When I fianly learned that, I swithched. Glad I did.

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pirateyar

I'm getting back into modeling after about a 15 year hiatus, and DCC is a mystery to me. I'm planning a medium size layout with single track main and two small yards. I plan on mostly operating by myself, with one train on the main while one switches, or occasionally a local and a passenger train on the main. Occasionally I might have others join me for operation. Given those plans, is DCC for me? Or should I go with good old fashioned block wiring. I'm a little nervous about getting into the expense of DCC, but the flexibility is appealing. Suggestions?

pirateyar,
Don't be nervous, as "Texas Zephyr" stated the wiring is a snap compared to DC block wiring. I'm converting my DC block layout at this moment and I'm amazed at the wiring simplicity. I spent a lot of time being nervous and hesitant over it turns out nothing. I've got a MRC Prodigy Advance and MRC at least has a ways to go to make purchasers like me feel warm and cozy with their purchase. Documentation seems a little thin. They need something comparable to the little Atlas book which shows various track plans and how to go about building them. I believe this would make the purchaser realize how simplified wiring for small or medium size layouts can be.
I always wondered about ads re DCC friendly turnouts, now I know. Have two Shinohara turnouts one of which apparently causes a short with one long wheelbase steamer. Looking at the construction of the Shinohara one wonders why they ever thought metal connection between two different rails was a good idea.(I don't have time to look up correct numenclature for the two rails) This particular turnout is installed and I don't want to rip it out so I'll work out a solution via internet info sources.
I'm running some of my loco roster on DCC now-5 BLI units and three units I bought via eBay with decoders already installed. My layout suffers from loco mania(no good loco should go unbought!) and I always had an on track storage problem. DCC makes this less of a problem.
I could never figure a linear layout,point A to point B, running DCC I now understand. With your planned two yards you are going to have a blast making up trains. I switch cars around at the expense on getting them onto the main!
DCC flat lives up to all the hoopla. If you do an advance search of this forum you will find a recurring theme, "I ain't going back, DCC is the way."
A lot of modelers cite cost of DCC. Yeah, but manufacturers are bringing the costs down and prudent shopping can help contain expenditures.
DCC? [tup] [tup] [tup] [8D] [:D]

Jon

[conrail92]

I just recently went into DCC, I own a midsize nothing large Dont have the room to go big :(, well anyways if you have moderate-high technical skills dcc is realy that complicated i use a MRC prodigy express, i would greatly suggest this model its afordable with many features some cheaper models may not have, and its very user friendly i installed it and got a locomotive up and running with it. in a couple of hours. But if you plan on maken this layout large, i would go with prodigy advance it would give you more power and some more features.

[jbloch]

Being another newbie, I have to agree with pretty much everything discussed. Starting out in HO, it was obvious to me immediately that DCC is the best route to go when starting out: more prototypical control/action, and wiring really is easier, not having to worry about blocks, etc. Cost is still significant, but better than it used to be. Not sure whether Tex Zeph is right about DC being more expensive (multiple locos, turnout decoders, other stationary decoders), but it just seems like that it's a no-brainer decision to me. CNJ831's comments make a lot of sense: If I had a large DC system, I'd probably be more hesitant to make the DCC "plunge"--but when starting anew as I am, seems like the best way to go.

Jim

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pirateyar
I think the main hurdle remaining is that I don't actually know all the details of setting it up as compared to the old block style wiring. But I'm learning. I've already read the stuff from Tony's Trains, and I plan to purchase one or more of the DCC intro books.

The real thing to remember is that, as far as the track wiring goes, it is super easy compared to the old block style wiring. All this talk of power buses, multiple feeds, and DCC incompatible turnouts are over stated and obfuscate that, In general, it is one wire from each lead of the DCC controller to each rail and go..... Even reversing loops are so much easier with the auto-sense and switch circuits.

The complexity comes with hot frog turnouts and the like but that is NOT a DCC issue that is an issue with any power through the track system.

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone! Some great advice here. To clarify--I don't really have much equipment left from the old days. A couple of engines, but I may not even end up keeping those. So I'm basically starting from scratch. DCC seems like a clear favorite, I think the main hurdle remaining is that I don't actually know all the details of setting it up as compared to the old block style wiring. But I'm learning. I've already read the stuff from Tony's Trains, and I plan to purchase one or more of the DCC intro books. There's a local train club here (Tallahassee) so I'm going to try to catch one of their upcoming meetings.

Yes, it looks like the train bug is back and not going away anytime soon. [:)]

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pirateyar
Or should I go with good old fashioned block wiring. I'm a little nervous about getting into the expense of DCC, but the flexibility is appealing.

These days I always puzzle when someone talks about the expense of DCC. It isn't like 20 years ago when a command control system would cost in the neighborhood of a thousand of dollars (and still worth every nickel for the people who truly operated back then). A DCC system can be purchased for the price of a good locomotive. When one starts to consider the cost of the control panels, electrical switches, block selector switches, and the cost of a DC controller for each cab I am certain the DC system is going to cost more. The cost of mobile decoders for the locomotives has gotten so cheap I don't even consider it a cost anymore. 15 years ago I was paying $50-60 per decoder (don't know what that would be in today's dollars). Often that was twice the price of the loco!

DCC is cheap cheap cheap...... And as I said above, even if it wasn't cheap, command control is worth it at any price!

[simon1966]

If you follow Craig's advice, there are many things you can do to make the conversion to DCC easier. As mentioned above, get locos that are easy to convert. Wire your blocks so that they make sense as dcc power districts. I basically ran my main lines on DC for a year, but had wired them as if I was going to run DCC. It made making the switch a snap. I meant I could run trains, but only incur the DCC expense when I was ready to.

[CraigN]

I can understand why someone well established with a DC layout and lots of engines is afraid to take the plunge.

But if you are just starting out, and are planning to make model railroading a life long hobby, spend the extra money and go DCC. You won't regret it.

However, if you are only testing the waters and you aren't sure if model railroading is for you, just go DC. It is a far cheaper way to get introduced into the hobby.

Then if you decide that model railroading is the hobby for you, then make the switch to DCC before you get alot invested in engines. It won't seem to hurt the wallet as much that way.

Craig

[tstage]

Some folks enjoy the pros and cons of DC. Some folks like the pros and cons of DCC. As a 2-year "newbie" to the hobby, I find myself in the latter group because DCC intuitively makes more sense to me.

The bottom line is that YOU are the one who will be running your layout. You have to be the one who is happy with your system - whether it be old school or new school.

Tom

[Anonymous]

i was wondering the same thing about t.v. i haven't had one in 40 years and was wondering if i should stick with my old black and white with the rabbit ears or go for this new fangled color t.v. i hear about with satallite something or other


easy answer even if your layout is small dcc is a better answer you will enjoy it more

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Don't let anybody try to bully you into DCC. It's good for many situations. I myself am thinking about DCC myself, although I'll have to convert mytire fleet of locos to use it. For now, DC is for me.

Jeffrey Wimberly, Leesville, La.

I'm out of my mind, but leave a message anyway.

[soapbox]

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RevMattCNJ

DCC is now the standard. However, there are situations where DC may be the better choice.

Quite honestly, Rev, that isn't so. As best can be determined through various hobbyist surveys, even after being available for more than a dozen years no more than around 20% of modelers (see MR editorial about 2003) are operating with DCC today. In spite of the hoopla in the magazines, DC remains by far the most popular operating system, especially for those with established layouts and this is likely to remain so for many years to come.

Among my own circle of hobbyist friends it is mainly the younger guys and newbies that have gone with DCC. The older, longterm, hobbyists (including myself) all seem perfectly satisfied running trains via DC and block systems.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

DCC is now the standard. However, there are situations where DC may be the better choice.

When to Go DC

-- If you have a small layout that only requires one train -- maybe an HO shortline or switching terminal on a shelf -- it is probably more economical to go DC.

-- If you have a good number of older locomotives, especially Athearn Blue Boxes, DC may be a better choice.

-- If you have children who will be operating the layout without supervision then it is probably better to have a locomotive roster made up of Athearn Blue Boxes and Walthers Trainline. DC will also insure you that your kids won't be tempted to do a Pugsly Adams head on collision with the trains.

-- There are some people who really like operating a DC layout with all the block wiring, etc...

[spidge]

I was also concerned about the non DCC ready locos I have but began purchasing DCC ready as soon as I saw them. I have some nice dc locos but I will either get the frame replacements or send to some to modify and install the decoders. Its a big deal but the results will be awesome.
I will have to modify a GP30,GP9,and a RSD4/5, not too much.
After all are DCC I will go with some sound but I have committed to the family that they will see scenery and structures before I spend anymore on sound. They want to help with the scenery and make some scenes of their own.

I guess is what I am saying is just do it. Do a few locos and Have someone run them with you. You wont go back. The difference in the thought proccess to run a layout will drive you crazy. Its a whole new world.

[simon1966]

Pirateyar, if you have not been following it, read the DCC Knucklehead thread. I think it kind of sums things up. Here is a guy who has experienced some frustration getting going with DCC, some bad decoder installations, and yet read what John says about his first running experience! It does not matter which DCC system you purchase, this is the sort of reaction many have.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=64736

[tstage]

Well said, Alexander.

Tom

[Anonymous]

I would reccomend you get dcc ready engines, so that if you go dcc later on you can change over easily. after money doesn't grow on trees, and if you have some system that you don't use, then it is a waste of money, whitch you could use to buy another loco etc.

these are my reccomendation, and whatever path you choose i hpe you have fun in the hobby.

alexander

[rolleiman]

I'd say go for it. Especially if you are starting over from scratch buying all new stuff. The naysayers, when it comes to single operator moderately sized pikes are right.. Not a big advantage, until you want to keep other locos on tracks. Strictly from a personal standpoint, DCC 8 years ago after block wiring several model rails, and haven't looked back since. Check it out, put your hands on a system (club, show, etc) somewhere and see if you like it. Know that on average, it adds about $20 to the cost of each loco by the time you get them running on DCC. Some of us just like features more than others. The choice is strictly yours..

Just make sure you're having fun [:P]

[simon1966]

Exactly Walter, there is a huge difference between starting out fresh and deciding to convert after years in the hobby. Converting requires a lot more thought and planning to be successful. It can also be fraught with dissapointment if much loved older equipment does not lend itself to easy DCC conversion.

[Walter Clot]

I have dc. I have one engine with dcc, which I did several years ago when I was in a club that wanted to start running dcc. I have a great number of engines that are not dcc. My layout is a double main line with an extensive industrial siding. Each main line is on a different power supply. The industrial siding is in blocks with it's own power supply . I also have a smaller area on which a connecting train can run continously and has some sidings for switching. It has it's own power supply. Thus I can have 4 operators! I am 70 years old and not interested in trying to change to dcc.
HOWEVER If I were just beginning and knew what I know now, I would go dcc.
Age and amount of equipment is another factor to consider.

[selector]

Bugboy63 is on to something. You are returning to a hobby that thrilled you...as it WAS. You may still find those thrills, but you have changed, and so has the hobby, at least to an extent, in both cases. It seems that once someone warms to this hobby, they want more...much more. More rolling stock, more track, more terrain, and surely more locos. If, like me, you refuse to store them in lockers as their numbers grow, then you will have to place them on the layout, and you can't do that with DC unless you have switched blocks [sigh]. I can imagine what it is like to work a layout in DC with blocks, and the prospect is most unappealing. With DCC, you need only worry about reverse loops. Everything else is "real world" simple, including hooking up two locos, tail-to-tail, and letting them try to pull each other in the opposite direction. Try that in any one block on DC!

You wouldn't drool over a brand new 1989 Chev that had never sold if you saw it on the lot, you would probably want the best that technology has to offer in 2005ish, or so. DCC is the most recent technology in running trains realistically, and if you are likely to "grow" in the hobby at all, you should come up with a compelling reason to stay in DC.

That's my two cents.