Grrrrrrr..... ! Getting the legs right!

[jacon12]

Hehehehe.. oh the ingenuity of it all!
Jarrell

[TBat55]

It works for me, and is faster than raising the leveling feet until fixed casters touch.

a better picture


Velcro hold it up


Don't forget a hole to remove the hinge pin.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TBat55

T-nuts are OK in 2x2s but I don't like the idea for pine 1x4s. If you already have a layout and can't flip it over to install T-nuts, you can screw on these leveling feet. Expensive ($6 from Woodcraft) but heavy duty 3" diameter. There's a lip that fits underneath to fully support the leg. The orange pad is not included. My basement is 100 years old and I want to move my layout. Minor floor variations with carriage bolts would driving me nuts. The larger diameter reduces the effect.

Tbat, it looks like you're using casters to roll you layout around. I was going to do that when my first idea was a 5 x 9 foot table. I thought it was a neat idea to be able to push layout over against the wall when I needed the space.
I appreciate the advice and I know others will also.
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by [e-mail]

In the Nov. 2004 MR, page 36, there was a neat article on adj. legs. I'm using it on my modular layout og the Cass Scenic. Drill 3" deep holes in the center of the legs w/a 5/16" brad point bit. Bradpoints leave a square-bottom hole.. Insert 1/4" tee nuts. Use the kind with four holes instead of prongs. (Pronged ones will work loose) Hold the tee nuts in place with paneling nails..
Use 1-1/4" PVC Pipe caps for feet. Drill a 1/4" hole in the center of the pipe cap. Use 2-1/2" bolts threaded to the head. Put a star washer & nut on the bolt, and just before you tighten it. put on a drop of C A. Add another nut for a locknut.
I hope you are able to take off the legs to work on them. Otherwise maybe, if your layout isn't too far along, you could turn each section over to work on it. Lots of luck,
Rollin
Trainbuff, I'm too far along to do this but it's a good way to go and I KNOW other people are reading this and taking notes for when they get to this part!
Thanks for the help!
Jarrell

[TBat55]

T-nuts are OK in 2x2s but I don't like the idea for pine 1x4s. If you already have a layout and can't flip it over to install T-nuts, you can screw on these leveling feet. Expensive ($6 from Woodcraft) but heavy duty 3" diameter. There's a lip that fits underneath to fully support the leg. The orange pad is not included. My basement is 100 years old and I want to move my layout. Minor floor variations with carriage bolts would driving me nuts. The larger diameter reduces the effect.

[Anonymous]

In the Nov. 2004 MR, page 36, there was a neat article on adj. legs. I'm using it on my modular layout og the Cass Scenic. Drill 3" deep holes in the center of the legs w/a 5/16" brad point bit. Bradpoints leave a square-bottom hole.. Insert 1/4" tee nuts. Use the kind with four holes instead of prongs. (Pronged ones will work loose) Hold the tee nuts in place with paneling nails..
Use 1-1/4" PVC Pipe caps for feet. Drill a 1/4" hole in the center of the pipe cap. Use 2-1/2" bolts threaded to the head. Put a star washer & nut on the bolt, and just before you tighten it. put on a drop of C A. Add another nut for a locknut.
I hope you are able to take off the legs to work on them. Otherwise maybe, if your layout isn't too far along, you could turn each section over to work on it. Lots of luck,
Rollin

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by [e-mail]

Instead of trying to mount the legs on the floor, and since your layout is an around the wall style, I'd suggest you mount the benchwork cantilever style on the walls. There are myrail articles in ModelRailroader addressing this style of construction. Lots of luck.

Trainbuff, I almost went with that style benchwork, and sometimes I wish I had... but I chose not to mount anything to the wall.
I think I have the problem fixed and I'm now starting the framework for the background boards.
Let's see how much I can screw that up..
Jarrell

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Marty on Vancouver Island

You're right! Some floors are not level, especially basement and garage floors. But ceilings [usually] are. So rather than measuring up from the floor, measure DOWN from the ceiling. For example: You want your layout height to be 50" and your ceiling height is 96", just measure down from the ceiling 46". Once you have marked this height on the walls around the room (double check it with a level), you have somewhere to start from, And as already mentioned in other responses, use a few clamps and the level to assemble the benchwork, a section at a time, as you move around the room - using the line on the wall to work from. Cheers, Marty on Vancouver Island

Thanks Marty, I think I now have it under control using the levelers and a capenters level.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Instead of trying to mount the legs on the floor, and since your layout is an around the wall style, I'd suggest you mount the benchwork cantilever style on the walls. There are myrail articles in ModelRailroader addressing this style of construction. Lots of luck.

[Marty on Vancouver Island]

You're right! Some floors are not level, especially basement and garage floors. But ceilings [usually] are. So rather than measuring up from the floor, measure DOWN from the ceiling. For example: You want your layout height to be 50" and your ceiling height is 96", just measure down from the ceiling 46". Once you have marked this height on the walls around the room (double check it with a level), you have somewhere to start from, And as already mentioned in other responses, use a few clamps and the level to assemble the benchwork, a section at a time, as you move around the room - using the line on the wall to work from. Cheers, Marty on Vancouver Island

[jacon12]

The cooler idea is a great one Nobull...
Thanks for the advice!
Jarrell

[nobullchitbids]

The one suggestion I did not see was to establish a "level line" around the layout room. The first thing one has to do is find the reference points for making everything else level.

For this, a water level is best. If you neither can buy nor borrow one, make one with a cooler possessing a tap in it. Get a long length of clear, flexible tubing and affix it to the tap. Fill the cooler to some level above the tap hole, mark that level with a grease pencil, and set it so the water's surface is at the height you want the top of the benchwork. Now, while holding the tubing ABOVE the level of the water in the cooler, open the ****. The water will fill the tubing to the level in the cooler (you may have to add some water to the cooler to bring the level back up to the grease mark). DO NOT MOVE THE COOLER AT ALL, JUST THE TUBING. Wherever you place the tubing, wherever the water is, that's level, and far more accurate than a bubble level. Mark that point on the wall with a pencil.

After you determine where all the benchwork must go to be at level, THEN you can use the hexhead carriage bolts in the legs for making the necessary adjustments. For most applications, a half inch travel up or down should be sufficient. For such a nice floor, make sure you put some kind of plate between the bolthead and the floor, e.g. a piece of brass or stainless steel. That should spread the weight enough to keep the boltheads from impressing themselves on the flooring.

[wccobb]

Basement floors are always pitched for drainage. One reliable way to level the layout (set the T-nuts& carriage bolts) is to measure from the bottom of the floor above you DOWN to the layout.

[jacon12]

mrunyan, that's what I did... I went ahead and purchased and installed the type levelers that have the little non marring foot attached. At first I looked for the bolts but we couldn't find a 'cover' for their heads (coulda used most anything, I guess), but for a buck or two more I opted for the ones stated above.
There has been a lot of good information in this thread and if I'm ever asked the question I asked the first thing out of my mouth will be to go ahead and invest in levelers of some type. You won't regret it I don't have a lot of hair left and they certainly allowed me to keep what I have
Jarrell[:D]

[mrunyan]

The mention of the drain makes a case for levelers, keep wood up off the floor against water damage stains. The pictures show a really well kept room so I doubt you have water problems. In that case I would suggest a leveler that has a nonmarring foot. Carraige bolts will scratch and mark that nice floor. I'm in Ntrak and we use those all the time and can set up on gymnasium floors without a worry. Nice work, keep it up.
You might want to guage the frame sides together with pins or bolts or screws, then they always line up. Just make a template and predrill the holes.

[oldyardgoat]

Jarrell,
Two more thoughts:
My dad was a carpenter. He said all floors were uneven to some degree. His advice was to measure down from the ceiling.
Invest in one of those laser line levels when you buy those T-nuts.
DS

[Anonymous]

I use carriage bolts with washers and a nut to adjust the levels mainly because I had never seen the T nuts in a hardware store in Canada. As to joining the sections together, I extended the front and rear frame 3/4 in. and used two blocks. One is screwed to the upper side of one frame and one to the lower side of the other frame. When you place the joint together it is already even. I drilled holes through from one section to the other and bolted them together. I have a 9 x 16 circular layout with a U shape walk around interior. It is built in 5 sections to facilatate moving. As a side note I also have small square blocks with a shallow hole in the center to allow the head of the carriage bolt to sit in. This is to keep the head off the floor. Don't know why but even in good basements bolts seem to attrack some form of moisture and rust.

[jacon12]

Problem solved. I turned the thing over, installed levelers. Why didn't I do it to start with!
Jarrell

[timclark]

I think you are all really talking about elevator bolts which look like carriage bolts but have flat heads which allow them to sit flat on the floor. Carriage bolts have rounded heads

[wcb4soorr]

When I started my layout, I planned on moving it (7 houses in 30 years!). I have eleven layout sections (16" x 96" N-scale) that I built and configured for the last basement, but had to modify slightly for this basenment. After the changes were made, I bought 5/16" lag screws of various lengths, 1" to 2 1/2". I layed each section on its side, drilled a pilot hole (the diameter of the shank of the screw) in the bottom of each 2" x 2" leg (6 legs per section) and screwed in the lags. (Don't ask me why I thought I needed six legs per 8 foot table! Life would be dull if we didn't learn from our mistakes.) It was a very fast installation, about ten minutes per table. There were no T-nuts, or extra holes and hex nuts to deal with. Lag screws have very large coarse threads. The steep thread pitch causes the screw to move in and out of the table leg much farther in one revolution than a carriage bolt with a fine thread. Believe me when I say this was a very important consideration when I was on my hands and knees on the basement floor trying to level the layout!

[jfrank138]

My first problem on my 16 x 36 foot basement layout was to establish a "datum plane," i.e., find out where level zero was. The cumulative error of working my way around the room with a carpenter's level was just too great. I then bought a cheap laser level but it didn't work much better -- leveling it was critical and the light beam was hard to see at the other end of the room.

I wound up with a makeshift level: I bought about 25 feet of flexible clear plastic tubing at the local hardware store, filled it nearly full with water and clamped one end (face up!) near the center of the layout. The other end can be moved around the room to find "level zero" at any point on the layout. Tee nuts and 3/8 inch carriage bolts under the legs did the leveling.

[jfrank138]

My first problem on my 16 x 36 ft. around-the-walls basement layout was establishing a "datum plane," i.e., finding out where "level zero" was. The cumulative error working my way around the basement with a carpenter's level was just too great. I then bought a cheap laser level but it didn't work much better.

I wound up using a trick I read about 50 or 60 years ago in Model Railroader: I bought a long (about 25 ft.) piece of flexible clear plastic tubing at the local hardware store and filled it nearly full with water. Clamp one end of the tubing (face up!) near the center of the layout and move the other end around the room to locate "level zero." T-nuts and carriage bolts under all the legs provide the table adjustment.

[jwwhite]

There are really affordable laser levels available at your home supply store. Set it up once in a fixed location (don't move it!), then use the laser line to find the top of your benchwork/legs.

[Anonymous]

When building modular units for use at differant locations , we used to drill a 3/4 inch hole clear thru the side of leg then drill a 3/8 hole in bottom thru the 3/4 hole. This allows you to insert a 1/4 inch bolt and as the bolt passes thru the 3/4 hole insert a nut for the bolt. This system allows a greater amount of adjustment for the rise of the table height. You never know what the floor may be like at a show nor the height of the module next to yours. With this system all modules could be leveled. This would also work for a home layout as well.

[Anonymous]

The T nuts seem to do the job. Remember if you're not doing "table top" benchwork, but doing open grid or L girder for a long run for example, you can raise and lower the risers to make the track level even if the benchwork isn't.

I'd love to bolt the benchwork to the wall and eliminate the legs as suggested in an earlier post, but I had some water problems in my basement that were costly and time consming to eliminate. I don't dare drill wholes in that basement wall BELOW the ground level. I could end up modeling Niagra Falls! If I redo the layout at some point I might run studs vertically from ceiling to floor and attach the benchwork to them. I can't drill the floor for reasons stated above, but I could glue the studs in place on the floor end and nail them to the 2 x 6's above.

[northern_blues]

I finished my benchwork a month ago and used the t-nuts, carriage bolts (of varying lengths) and locking nuts.

I have the ultimate in uneven floors as it is a 125 year old basement and the poured concrete floor is pocked and of uncertain vintage. I could actually visually see the slopes !!

The t-nut approach worked perfectly and I have a 8' X 16' layout with 5 separate benches bolted together. This approach saves on frayed nerves and tempers, I'll tell you that.

-Dave

[Seamonster]

T-nuts and carriage bolts for me. They work great. [^]

[SpaceMouse]

After seeing the benchwork add my vote to the levelers.

[Anonymous]

levellers...yup, that's the way to go.

Trevor