Grrrrrrr..... ! Getting the legs right!

[jacon12]

I'm building an around the wall layout and, like everybody else, I'm finding floors ain't exactly level!
[:0]Surprise!![:0]
How do you guys handle this? Keep trimming legs and hope you get it right? Shims? Those screw out leveling things for the bottoms of the legs? Shave off the top of the plywood table where two of them meet?
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Put leg levelers in the bottom that allow +- 1" or so. You can do this by putting T-nuts in the bottom of the leg and screwing in a 2 1/2 or 3" carrige bolt.

If you have more money, you can actually get proper feet - for example:

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p=40045&cat=3,41306,41308

Andrew

[SpaceMouse]

There are a few things you can do. First of all, legs don have to go all the way to the top of your frame. And for starters to hold things in place, they can stick through the top.

Depending on the variation, cut your leg 1/2 inch short or so. If you are bolting your leg to the frame, make the holes a little large. That gives you adjustment. Find the right height by moving the bench up and down. When you find the right height mark it with a pencil line. Bolt it down, and set a couple of screws to keep it from slipping.

IF you are just using screws it is even easier. Cut a board to an approximate lenght. Put it in place raise or lower the bench to level. Mark it with a pencil. Cut it if you need to. Clamp the boards togehter and screw.

For the first one, run a level off the top of you wall brace. Stand a too long board where your table edge goes. Mark level with your pencil. Cut the board at that point.

Now as to setting the whole frame in. Cut your legs a little long. and let them stick up through the frame. screw them into place temporarily, then go back and adjust each leg.

Ask questions if you don't understand what I'm talking about.

[cwclark]

use a level with a glass leveling bubble before bolting it to the wall...

[rrinker]

Chip beat me to it. Yup, just don't make the leg run all the way to the top of the frame, there's no reason for it. That way you have alittle room to level the frame BEFORE fastening the leg on. Use a clamp to hold it in position as you level things out, and once it's right, screw the leg to the frame.

--Randy

[dwRavenstar]

I've used clamps and a bullseye level on all three of my layouts.

Build the basic benchwork and clamp the legs in place, adjusting them until the level is settled directly in the center of the circular bullseye.

Mark the legs for adjustment cuts and predrill for the screws once everything is leveled.
When attaching the adjusted legs use the level all over the place to verify that everything is working properly.

Dave (dwRavenstar)

[davekelly]

the t nuts and carriage bolts have always worked for me. Allows you to reposition the benchwork around the room without major effort at releveling (is that a word?)

[Anonymous]

I used a cantilevered sidewall support system made from 1 X 4 's that were braced with 2 x 2 's and anchored to the studs in the walls. You don't have to worry about floors and it frees up the space underneath the layout. Most layout books should show you how it's done. Get rid of the legs.

Larry

[Seamonster]

There was a good article in Trains.com about 1X4 brackets to support a layout against the wall. I plan to use that for part of my expanded layout. You can see the article at [code]http://www.trains.com/content/dynamic/articles/000/000/001/389evpgm.asp?[/code]

[jkeaton]

T-nuts and carriage bolts - I got used to using them with modulars, but they work equally well for fixed layouts.

Jim

[jacon12]

Sorry guys for not making in clear that this benchwork isn't attached to the wall.


I'm building it in sections and I've completed one more since taking these pictures. I'm thinking now that the best thing I could do is cut off the legs about an inch and put in the levelers.
I do have another question concerning the two inch foam to be used on top of this. Won't the foam make up for some of the difference in table heights, say 1/4th inch, if I can't get them dead level?
Jarrell

[rrinker]

Not without a lot of sanding. If the table is 1/4" lower on one side before the foam, the foam will be lower by 1/4" on the same side.
The question is, how much does it matter? Obviously you do not want the layout to slope in a noticeable fashion. But if it's REASONABLY close, does it REALLY matter if it's exactly level? If we're talking 1/16" over an 8 foot long section - that's a .065% grade. Pretty meaningless.
Sloppy benchwork is bad. But we also do not need micrometer precision here.

--Randy

[SpaceMouse]

The easier method than sanding is to shim the foam board up where it is low. Just make sure you shim evenly on each board.

Randy make sense about your tollerences. On my layout, there are very few spots where layout matters. Everything else is some sort of grade.

[jacon12]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

Not without a lot of sanding. If the table is 1/4" lower on one side before the foam, the foam will be lower by 1/4" on the same side.
The question is, how much does it matter? Obviously you do not want the layout to slope in a noticeable fashion. But if it's REASONABLY close, does it REALLY matter if it's exactly level? If we're talking 1/16" over an 8 foot long section - that's a .065% grade. Pretty meaningless.
Sloppy benchwork is bad. But we also do not need micrometer precision here.

--Randy

Randy and Spacemouse, your answers are a help. I'm going to try and get the table tops as close as I can if I can get them within 1x8 inch I think I'm going to try and adjust it out in the 2 inch foam layer
My other problem is I want to keep building benches on around the room (15x21) feet and this is my first layout so I need to stop and learn to do something else... like lay track and wiring and scenery and on and on..[:)]
Jarrell (jacon)

[BigOzzy86]

I have a basement that gradually slopes towards the drain so I will have the same problem. I bought some T-Nuts this past weekend at home depot for my layout that is under construction.... Ill be installing them into my 2x2's this weekend so I'll let you know how it goes. My layout is composed of two seperate 6ft by 2ft sections that will have to match up exactly for things to go right. Ill let you know how it goes.

[bogp40]

After seeing the pictured benchwork, you can just unfasten any secured sections, turn them over and drill the legs for "T" nuts. Install a carriage bolt w/ locking hex nut

If unable to disturb the sections, then shim the layout to where you like, the replace the shim with matched size/ thickness block- glued of coarse
Bob K..

[jacon12]

Good luck with it Big Oz, I think you're doing the right thing
Robert, that looks like the best way and in the long run, the easy way.
Jarrell

[Anonymous]

Congratulations on the good looking bench work. T nuts and carrage bolts in the bottom of the legs should be all you need to get the sections level. They worked for me and I do not have the carpentry gene.

[Anonymous]

levellers...yup, that's the way to go.

Trevor

[SpaceMouse]

After seeing the benchwork add my vote to the levelers.

[Seamonster]

T-nuts and carriage bolts for me. They work great. [^]

[northern_blues]

I finished my benchwork a month ago and used the t-nuts, carriage bolts (of varying lengths) and locking nuts.

I have the ultimate in uneven floors as it is a 125 year old basement and the poured concrete floor is pocked and of uncertain vintage. I could actually visually see the slopes !!

The t-nut approach worked perfectly and I have a 8' X 16' layout with 5 separate benches bolted together. This approach saves on frayed nerves and tempers, I'll tell you that.

-Dave

[Anonymous]

The T nuts seem to do the job. Remember if you're not doing "table top" benchwork, but doing open grid or L girder for a long run for example, you can raise and lower the risers to make the track level even if the benchwork isn't.

I'd love to bolt the benchwork to the wall and eliminate the legs as suggested in an earlier post, but I had some water problems in my basement that were costly and time consming to eliminate. I don't dare drill wholes in that basement wall BELOW the ground level. I could end up modeling Niagra Falls! If I redo the layout at some point I might run studs vertically from ceiling to floor and attach the benchwork to them. I can't drill the floor for reasons stated above, but I could glue the studs in place on the floor end and nail them to the 2 x 6's above.

[Anonymous]

When building modular units for use at differant locations , we used to drill a 3/4 inch hole clear thru the side of leg then drill a 3/8 hole in bottom thru the 3/4 hole. This allows you to insert a 1/4 inch bolt and as the bolt passes thru the 3/4 hole insert a nut for the bolt. This system allows a greater amount of adjustment for the rise of the table height. You never know what the floor may be like at a show nor the height of the module next to yours. With this system all modules could be leveled. This would also work for a home layout as well.

[jwwhite]

There are really affordable laser levels available at your home supply store. Set it up once in a fixed location (don't move it!), then use the laser line to find the top of your benchwork/legs.

[jfrank138]

My first problem on my 16 x 36 ft. around-the-walls basement layout was establishing a "datum plane," i.e., finding out where "level zero" was. The cumulative error working my way around the basement with a carpenter's level was just too great. I then bought a cheap laser level but it didn't work much better.

I wound up using a trick I read about 50 or 60 years ago in Model Railroader: I bought a long (about 25 ft.) piece of flexible clear plastic tubing at the local hardware store and filled it nearly full with water. Clamp one end of the tubing (face up!) near the center of the layout and move the other end around the room to locate "level zero." T-nuts and carriage bolts under all the legs provide the table adjustment.

[jfrank138]

My first problem on my 16 x 36 foot basement layout was to establish a "datum plane," i.e., find out where level zero was. The cumulative error of working my way around the room with a carpenter's level was just too great. I then bought a cheap laser level but it didn't work much better -- leveling it was critical and the light beam was hard to see at the other end of the room.

I wound up with a makeshift level: I bought about 25 feet of flexible clear plastic tubing at the local hardware store, filled it nearly full with water and clamped one end (face up!) near the center of the layout. The other end can be moved around the room to find "level zero" at any point on the layout. Tee nuts and 3/8 inch carriage bolts under the legs did the leveling.

[wcb4soorr]

When I started my layout, I planned on moving it (7 houses in 30 years!). I have eleven layout sections (16" x 96" N-scale) that I built and configured for the last basement, but had to modify slightly for this basenment. After the changes were made, I bought 5/16" lag screws of various lengths, 1" to 2 1/2". I layed each section on its side, drilled a pilot hole (the diameter of the shank of the screw) in the bottom of each 2" x 2" leg (6 legs per section) and screwed in the lags. (Don't ask me why I thought I needed six legs per 8 foot table! Life would be dull if we didn't learn from our mistakes.) It was a very fast installation, about ten minutes per table. There were no T-nuts, or extra holes and hex nuts to deal with. Lag screws have very large coarse threads. The steep thread pitch causes the screw to move in and out of the table leg much farther in one revolution than a carriage bolt with a fine thread. Believe me when I say this was a very important consideration when I was on my hands and knees on the basement floor trying to level the layout!

[timclark]

I think you are all really talking about elevator bolts which look like carriage bolts but have flat heads which allow them to sit flat on the floor. Carriage bolts have rounded heads

[jacon12]

Problem solved. I turned the thing over, installed levelers. Why didn't I do it to start with!
Jarrell