Dave, I'm excited to see you begin this. Congratulations on getting started again. Looking forward to seeing it take shape.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
Dave) You aint foolin me! Your only working on your layout now because you finished your snow plow and you need something to run it on.
J/K - and best wishes to a good finish asap so you can get to running trains!
Ahead Clear!!!!
Douglas
Here is the current track plan. I have spent many hours refining it using 3rd PlanIt. I know that 3rd PlanIt's track component library is accurate because I have done some testing, so there shouldn't be any nasty surprises when the track is being laid.
There are two parts to the benchwork, both of which will be on casters. One is the main layout which is 5'4" x 12', and the second is the yard which is approximately 3' x 10' plus a couple of extensions where the yard will connect to the main layout. The two parts will be built so they can be separated and moved about individually. The reason for that is that I have limited space in the garage and I have to maintain room for storage, woodworking occassionally, and my paint booth and workbench. When the layout is in use I want to be able to walk around it comfortably, but when it is not in use, I want to be able to push it out of the way.
The main benchwork is built. I have not started construction of the yard benchwork yet. Before I can do that I need to get rid of a whole bunch of extraneous stuff that is taking up space in the garage.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critterAfter a long hiatus I am resuming the construction of my 5'4" x 12' HO scale layout. I had a thread going on it several years ago but I can't find it so I will start anew.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/281323.aspx?page=1
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Little things always go wrong in planning but your layout is loose enough that if one pops up it, only you will notice the change even if you gave someone your curent track plan. Glad you are able to finally build your layout.
I'm looking forward to seeing your new layout progress.
Congratulations!
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
hon30critter After a long hiatus I am resuming the construction of my 5'4" x 12' HO scale layout. I had a thread going on it several years ago but I can't find it so I will start anew. https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/281323.aspx?page=1
hon30critter After a long hiatus I am resuming the construction of my 5'4" x 12' HO scale layout. I had a thread going on it several years ago but I can't find it so I will start anew.
Ahhhh . . . the internet is forever!
LINK to SNSR Blog
Hi Bear,
Thank you for finding the old layout thread. I need to improve my search skills.
I had forgotten how long the thread had become. I don't expect anyone to read through it. I need to learn how to make my posts shorter.
hon30critterI need to learn how to make my posts shorter.
Short by Bear, on Flickr
Dave, is there ANY way you could find some kind of insulating material to throw against the walls? I don't know where you live, but if you get nights as low as 10 deg F, your construction will need to be carefully considered, especially how the tracks are kept in alignment and adhered. And, in the summers, humidity might do nasty things.
I can see not wanting to waste energy and money heating a building or room that isn't being used much. Believe me, I get it. But, if you can spring for maybe $200 for insulation, even as little as R-15, you could heat the place enough to keep it at about 6-8 deg for maybe $40/month, and that's for four/five months.
I put this forward because I have had hobbies and pastimes galore. What is unwieldy, heavy, uncomfortable, complicated, unreliable, and/or remote in any way, will quickly pale and get little use.
selectorDave, is there ANY way you could find some kind of insulating material to throw against the walls?
Hi selector,
We are in southern Ontario just north of Toronto. Winter temperatures routinely get into the -20s C and often below that. The garage is already insulated and drywalled and the garage doors are insulated as well, so that is already covered. However, the garage does get cold during the winter months because there is no built in source of heat. As I mentioned, I have a small space heater which will take the chill off if left to run for several hours but I don't like to let it run when I am not in the garage.
You make a very good point about the temperature swings potentially causing problems with the trackwork. I hadn't thought about that. You have inspired me to investigate having a proper heating system installed in the garage. I'm pretty sure that my electrical panel would have the capacity to handle a heating system (and possibly a cooling system) because we had the panel upgraded not too long ago.
Thanks for your input!
With the amount of effort that goes into building a layout, at the very least, one should be able to enjoy it when one likes. As I’m not a heating engineer I can offer no ideas but hope you can come up with an efficient solution, you deserve it!
As you point out, things can get quite hot here in the summer as well, so a system that both heats and cools would be ideal.
Several companies in Canada offer so called 'split' systems. These do not require any ductwork and they take up very little space both inside and outside. They are available in dual purpose heating and air conditioning styles. The interior component resides on a wall in a central location in the room, and the exterior unit can be mounted 'almost' anywhere but the closer to the interior unit, the better. Costs range considerably but the garage is only about 600 sq. ft. so I don't need a massive unit.
Dianne spent about three hours in the garage on Tuesday afternoon identifying things that we can get rid of to make more room for the layout. Her brother has offered to sell my Shwin pedal tricycle which has virtually no operating time. I couldn't ride it comfortably because of the angle at which my feet sit relative to my legs so it has been sitting in the garage for several years. We discovered that we have three full cases of paper towels so we are going to deliver two of them to our kids who have a new baby. I'm sure they will use them up in no time. There is a lot more extranious stuff but I won't bore you with the details.
hon30critterWe discovered that we have three full cases of paper towels so we are going to deliver two of them to our kids who have a new baby. I'm sure they will use them up in no time. There is a lot more extranious stuff but I won't bore you with the details.
At least you can get your car into the garage.
Before I built my backyard shed, it was touch-and-go trying to get our car into and out of the garage/storage area.
Good luck and have fun. This is another of life's great adventures that keep our minds from going dull.
York1At least you can get your car into the garage.
Nope, not going to happen! We haven't had a car in the garage for years. The last one was my '69 MGC GT and it was completely disassembled.
If all goes to plan, the layout will have a detachable yard that will take up a fair amount of space. There will also be two large storage cabinets for train stuff.
The garage also serves as a paint/woodworking shop and storage for garden supplies and tools, as well as storage for items we buy in bulk (like paper towels).
I have decided to go ahead with the installation of a small (12,000 btu.) heating/air conditioning system. The garage is approx. 600 sq. ft. and the unit will cover up to 750 sq. ft. It should be a fairly straight forward installation since everything will be on the same level. My only concern is that I'm not sure if the panel has sufficient capacity, but installing a sub panel if needed shouldn't be an issue. We shall see!
On another layout front, I have always wanted Rapido's 'Canadian' passenger train in the maroon and grey livery. I actually rode on it from Toronto to Vancouver and back in 1965. I have managed to find seven cars for it. I have:
- Two coaches (on preorder);
- Two sleepers;
- One baggage/dormitory car;
- One mid train dome car;
- One observation/dome car (it's in the action red livery but I have a set of decals to convert it to maroon stripping).
I have more than enough InterMountain and Rapido F series engines to fill the bill, so I'm all set. I don't want a longer train because it would look awkward on my small layout. All I need now is a bull elk to stand beside the train, oh, and some snow.
The Canadian by Rapido is a really nice passenger train. No diner? Gonna have hungry passengers!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 No diner? Gonna have hungry passengers!
Diner? What Diner??
Ooops! I guess I had a seniors' moment.
The trick might be finding one in CP maroon and grey.
Thanks,
I'm away for a few days. I will resume the thread when I get back.
We got back from our visit to cottage country a bit sooner than we expected so I want to bring you up to date on the layout.
First, I had a terrible time with PayPal getting the down payment to the layout builder, Peter Lloyd-Lee. He preferred to use PayPal so I agreed. Then the fun started! I transferred sufficient funds to my PayPal balance only to discover that the transfer would take eight days to complete. That bothered me a bit but I decided to just go along.
Eight days later the funds showed up in my PayPal balance so I proceeded to send the deposit to the layout builder, or at least I tried to send the money. I was informed that I had exceeded the amount of money that I could transfer in a single transaction. The website said that I could increase my limit online but I couldn't find the page that would allow me to do that.
My next step was to phone PayPal. I got a nice lady on the phone whose accent was so thick that I couldn't understand her at first but eventually we were able to communicate. She discovered that my PayPal account was not working properly so she would have to make the changes from her end, which she did. So far, so good. Then she proceeded to inform me that, even though my payment limit had been lifted, it could take up to 10 days for the payment to be processed. That was absolutely unacceptable and I told her so. With a rather firm voice I told her that I wanted the payment to be processed immediately! To make a long story short, she was able to make that happen. I use PayPal frequently. That may change.
On another front, the layout builder has agreed to examine my collection of Peco Code 100 Electrofrog turnouts to see if I have converted them to be DCC friendly properly. They are all older versions of varying vintages. If he is not happy with them, then I will donate the turnouts to my old train club and acquire new Peco Code 83 Unifrog turnouts as well as Peco Code 83 track.
I managed to have another senior's moment. I need a bunch of toggle switches for the control panels so I went online to a local electronics distributor and ordered them. A little while later I realized that I had ordered SPDT switches when what I needed were DPDT. Between the restocking fee and the return postage, it's not woth sending them back. I will be able to use some of them so it is not a total loss.
hon30critterA little while later I realized that I had ordered SPDT switches when what I needed were DPDT.
Are you planning to use these toggle switches for Tortoise machines, Dave? You can use SPDT if you wire them as shown in example 2 or 3 here:
http://www.circuitron.com/index_files/INS/800-6000ins.pdf
If you use them to isolate track sections in DCC you simply kill the power to one rail and that's all that's needed.
Good Luck, Ed
hon30critterOn another front, the layout builder has agreed to examine my collection of Peco Code 100 Electrofrog turnouts to see if I have converted them to be DCC friendly properly.
Gee Dave!!! I realise that they’re not the only game in town but I don’t know what’s wrong with Peco points and their use with DCC?!!!
I know that the Peco Electrofrog turnouts are fine for DCC as they come, but I have added a couple of things like point rail connecting wires instead of relying on the pivot rail contacts, and I have added the frog feed wires. I want to make sure that my work meets Peter's standards.
I also want to make sure that all of the turnouts that I have are usable. Some of them are quite old. I don't want Peter to get here only to discover that we need new turnouts.
gmpullmanAre you planning to use these toggle switches for Tortoise machines, Dave? You can use SPDT if you wire them as shown in example 2 or 3 here:
Hi Ed,
Sorry for the slow response. I need DPDT On-On switches for the Tortoises because I want to be able to contol all the turnouts from either side of the layout. Every Tortoise will therefore require two DPDT switches (and lots of wire!).
I will have uses for the SPDT switches to kill track power in several areas and to control lighting.
Thanks for the link to Circutron.
Do you have a timeframe for whe Peter will be able to start on your layout?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Hi Mark,
We are looking at next Spring or early summer. Peter has to make an 1800 mile round trip from Tennessee so neither of us was particularly thrilled with the idea of him driving in winter. He is driving as opposed to flying so he can bring his own tools with him. Driving is slightly more expensive but not by much.
I'm not worried about the delay. I have a lot of stuff to do to get ready. One of the major tasks will be to build four control panels for the main layout and possibly two panels for the yard. There will be two DPDT switches for each turnout, plus switches for about 15 Rapido uncouplers, and several switches for power shut off to individual tracks.
I want to make the panels as compact as possible because I want to be able to easily reach over them from a seated position.
I also have to sort out all of my locomotives. About a dozen need to have decoders installed and programmed, and there are several locomotives and cars that I have to finish modifications on. For example, I am upgrading the roof mounted Mars lights on my Rapido Canadian Pacific F series locomotives. The original Mars lights were pitiful! I'm also adding working Mars lights to several Intermountain CP Fs as well.
I can also use the time to build some structures.
I managed to create some plans for the control panels tonight. After several hours of fiddling I got the panels down to about 13" x 6 1/2". Each of the panels covers one entire half of the layout. The minimum distance between toggle switches is 1 1/2".
My first attempt came out poorly. A single panel would have been 28" x 14"! I wouldn't be able to see the layout!
The next step will be to figure out the wiring.
hon30critterI managed to create some plans for the control panels tonight. After several hours of fiddling I got the panels down to about 13" x 6 1/2". Each of the panels covers one entire half of the layout. The minimum distance between toggle switches is 1 1/2". My first attempt came out poorly. A single panel would have been 28" x 14"! I wouldn't be able to see the layout! The next step will be to figure out the wiring. Cheers!! Dave
As requested:
Layout plan:
Service area panel for the south side of the layout. There be a matching panel for the north side. Blue squares are DPDT mini toggle switches. Orange squares are Rapido uncouplers. Gray squares are power shutoffs. The squares are the size of the body of the switches. Red circles are LEDs:
Industrial area panel For the south side. There will be a matching panel on the north side:
Yard panel for the south side. There will be a matching panel for the north side:
I'm going to mount terminal strips on separate panels behind the control panels so all the soldering can be done at the workbench. The control panels and connector panels will pivot forward at the bottom to make the wiring easier. All the panels are 11 3/16" x 6" as they are drawn.
I printed the panels actual size so I could see if the switches are too close together for my fingers, but the clearances are fine. The initial panels will be made of masonite. Down the road, once I am happy that the layout works as intended, I will make plexy panels.
There will be other items added to the panels like lighting controls and switches to control the trolley.
There's a lot in those panels! Wiring them will be lots of fun.
Be sure to post pics of the finish products, okay? Maybe next week?
PruittThere's a lot in those panels! Wiring them will be lots of fun. Be sure to post pics of the finish products, okay? Maybe next week?
There will be a lot of wires for sure, but I have a good idea of how to prevent them from looking like a rat's nest.
Here is the back of a panel that I made for my old club. I used bigger wire than was necessary but it was what I had on hand. It was my first attempt and I learned a lot. For one thing, I'm going to use smaller solid wire so I can make the bends cleaner. The terminal strips will be on a separate strip of wood so that should reduce some of the congestion:
Here is the front of the same panel:
I will post pictures once the boards are finished. That won't be in a week!
You're not using the control panels you previously ordered?
hon30critterHi Mark, There will be a lot of wires for sure, but I have a good idea of how to prevent them from looking like a rat's nest. ... I'm going to use smaller solid wire so I can make the bends cleaner. ... Cheers!! Dave
...
I'm going to use smaller solid wire so I can make the bends cleaner.
One suggetion - use stranded wire. I used solid wire and the conductor on smaller wire has a real tendancy to break as you're wiring the switches. Stranded is much less likely to do that.
Hi AEP528,
Unfortunately I was being rather premature when I ordered those panels. There are two major flaws with them. One is that they are far too big and the second, somewhat more fatal issue, is that thay don't match the track plan anymore!
In order to avoid making mistake #2 again, I am going to work with the masonite boards for several months. Once I am happy with the plan I will order the fancy panels.
We are going to use stranded wire for everything except the control panels. I want to use solid 20 ga. wire in the panels so that I can control its positioning more accurately. That will have the additional advantage of not stressing the wires when the control panels are folded forward to gain access to the terminal strips. The strips will be mounted on a small frame which will be attached to the layout behind the control panels.
I will post some drawings once I get them done.
Here are the drawings for the control panel frames. The side view shows the pivot point where the front face will pivot downward at the bottom. The terminal strips will be attached to the folding frame so the stranded wires coming from the layout can do all the flexing.
Double click for a larger view.
I decided that I wanted to buy an NCE 5 amp radio command system. I spent three hours last night trying to find one. Nobody in Canada has one in stock, and NCE doesn't even have any because of parts availability issues. I finally found one at Trainworld so I snapped it up (they only had two).
I think I'm happy. It was a bit of an investment but at least I have one. I just hope it works properly because NCE has suspended their repairs, again because of a lack of chips.
I've had a 5 amp NCE Power Pro radio system since around 2001 and have been very happy with it. It's never failed, and NCE support is always outstanding.
I did have a bit of a problem with radio dead spots on my basement-sized layout, so I added a Wifitrax WFD-31 wi-fi adapter. It allows you to use any smart phone as a throttle (with either Engine Driver or Withrottle, depending on whether you phone is an Android or Apple), and coverage is rock solid everywhere. It connects to the system throttle buss in place of one of NCE's UTP throttle ports. It took a lot longer to read the half page of basic set-up instructions than it did to get the unit working.
For my money, both NCE and Wifitrax produce excellent products.
Thank you for that suggestion. We had a similar setup at my old club and everyone was very happy with it. It certainly makes a non-issue out of the number of throttles that are available.
I am on my second NCE Power Cab. A broken water pipe killed the first one. Having it repaired was almost the same price as buying a new one, so now I have some spare parts should the second one wear out. I doubt that will ever happen because the Power Cab will only be used on the workbench test track.
I'm not sure if you have been following my thread in the Electronics and DCC forum, but Sheldon has just helped me to simplify my control panels significantly.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/296196.aspx
I was trying to figure out how to wire two toggle switches to turn the power off to one stub end spur. Things were getting complicated until Sheldon suggested that I simply route power to the spur through one set of contacts in the Tortoise.
Using the built in Tortoise switch instead of having a separate toggle switch and an LED indicator reduces the number of components in the control panels by 72 pieces in total even though there are only 18 spurs that need to have the power controlled. That's amazing!
I have decided that if I am in for a penny then I am in for a pound. The garage is going to get some upgrades!
The first thing I need to do is get the floor refinished. There are no major cracks but there are a few pot holes that are a couple of inches deep. Those obviously need to be repaired and then I will have the whole thing resurfaced. I'm not sure I want to go to the expense of having it epoxied. I may just opt to have the concrete polished and sealed.
I am going to install a ductless split AC/heat pump system. They are not that expensive. I only need a 12,000 btu unit. That will make the garage comfortable all year round and it will provide some temperature and humidity stability for the layout.
All the walls and the ceiling are drywalled already so that will just require some cleaning up and painting.
The next question is how far do I want to go with fancy cabinetry. Right now I have a bunch of rather crude and messy wooden shelves. I do have two tall cabinets which I intend to use for train stuff once I get them assembled, but it would be nice to hide the rest of the junk like power tools and gardening supplies too.
Sounds great, Dave.
The heating/AC is going to make a great difference for you.
Exciting stuff Dave! I admit I'm a little jealous of the mini-split system you are putting in. That will make it really nice!
Mike
Water Level Route I'm a little jealous of the mini-split system you are putting in. That will make it really nice!
Hi Mike,
I was surprized at the price. The system is way cheaper than a home air conditioning unit. I'm getting it from a company in Quebec by the name of Senville. I checked out several split system reviews and they were at the top every time. The nice thing is that they offer 110v systems so I shouldn't have to add a sub panel.
I'm not quite so happy with the cost of doing proper cabinets. Right now all I have are messy and crude wooden shelves that will not look good in the background of any layout photos.
I finally have the control panel schematics worked out. I have been playing with the number and locations of the Rapido uncouplers and I think I have them down to a reasonable number. I'll post the diagrams tonight so you can offer any advice you might have.
I have enlarged the panels slightly to make them a bit less crowded. What colour would you choose? I'm leaning towards a black panel with white track and turnout numbers. If I really had my druthers I'd like to have the track lines illuminated with red/green indications. That would be doable by having the panels printed on white plexy with the non track areas painted black. I believe that there are now LED strips available that can be cut to length. That would create another interesting wiring discussion!
Lots of fun options!
For now, I will stay with masonite until I'm happy with the track plan.
For those of you who might be interested, here are three of the control panel schematics. There are actually six panels in total but the other three are mirror images of the drawings below so I don't see a need to post them. All of these panels go on the south side of the layout:
Here (again) is the whole layout:
Green and orange circles are uncouplers.
Service area:
Orange squares are uncouplers on the panel diagrams. The squares show the size of the switch bodies for clearance purposes. Blue squares are turnout toggle switch bodies. Red circles are bi-colour LEDs.
South industrial:
South yard:
The panels will be about 12" x 6 1/2" (5 1/2" for the yard panels).
I just refined the yard benchwork design to make it easier to install the Tortoises and the uncouplers. I only had to move two crossmembers a bit and It looks like I will require two remote Tortoise mounts. No big deal.
I questioned why I would need Tortoise machines and uncouplers in the yard since it is only 24" wide, but I have decided to go with them. With my lack of dexterity I can see myself knocking cars off the rails left, right and center trying to uncouple them manually.
I sent a note to Peter Lloyd-Lee who will be doing the track and wiring to ask him if he saw any glaring mistakes in my track plan. He pointed out one potential serious problem and that was that the tracks crossing from the main layout to the yard were at very steep angles to the benchwork joints where the yard and the main layout will be connected. He suggested that they should be as close to 90 degrees as possible. The more I looked at the problem, the harder the solution appeared to be. To add to the complexity, I had located two turnouts directly over the benchwork joints.
After a couple of hours I came up with a very simple solution. I decided to cut the yard in half from north to south just to the west of where yard turnout 'K' is located. The joint will cross all seven yard tracks at exactly 90 degrees. The cut off section will be about 6' x 26" and it will be on its own set of casters.
The east section of the yard will eventually be bolted directly to the main benchwork so there will be no potential movement between the two pieces of benchwork. We shouldn't even have to cut the rails.
The east section of the yard won't be attached to the main benchwork until all the wiring and under layout details have been installed on the main section. That will allow us to take advantage of the benchwork's rotating mechanism to gain access to the underside to do the work. Once all the wiring etc. is done there should be no further need to tilt the table. If at some point in the future there is a need to tilt the main table, the rails can be cut and the section unbolted.
I am going to add Casters to the east portion of the yard both for stability, and so that that part of the yard can be free standing should it ever be separated from the main benchwork. Probably unneccesary but you know full well that I like to build things like the proverbial masonary outdoor convenience.
Here is the track plan showing where the cut will be:
The main layout with the east side of the yard attached will still be relatively easy to move to get it out of the way when needed.
It's Christmas in Bradford!
My NCE PH Pro - r wireless DCC command station set just arrived. Everything was in good condition. I haven't tried it out yet. I need to get the device that will allow folks to use their cell phones as throttles but there is no urgency for that.
Time to start reading the manual.
I have been playing with how to attach the yard to the main layout. My first plan required a rather cumbersome triangular addition to the yard benchwork that was larger enough that it would have required additional casters to keep the whole assembly ballanced. It was simply too big.
I have managed to reduce the size and complexity of the triangular extention to where it can be cantilevered off of the yard benchwork without creating any balance issues. As a bonus, it uses about 1/4 of the wood required for the original plan, and it actually provides a small space for some elevated scenery for the train to run through.
I spent a couple of hours looking at how the layout with the yard attached will fit into the garage. I decided that there was not enough aisle space at the ends of the layout for me to comfortably be able to get through while sitting in a rolling chair. To cure that I decided to shorten the yard by about 16". The yard tracks will still be long enough to store the trains that I anticipate running, and if worse comes to worst, I will have to use two yard tracks to make up one train.
I should mention that my rather naive initial vision for the yard was to be able to store as many cars as possible on it. After doing some reading I realized that doing that would make the yard pretty much unusable.
I also played with the arrangement of the rest of the garage space. We have a freezer that has to stay in the garage, but I can do what I want with the rest of the space. My initial planning suggests that I can accommodate five storage cabinets 36" wide x 18" deep x 66" high, plus a small workbench. I can also add some 12" wide shelving closer to the ceiling. I will be able to park a lot of kits etc. on that. There is also a narrow shelf about 42" off the floor which sits on top of the cinder block foundation. It is just wide enough to fit some display cases on, but I will leave that for down the road. My problem is that we will have less storage space because we won't be able to pile boxes of toilet paper etc. in the middle of the floor as is our current practise. We will just not be able to buy in bulk any more.
I have a gentleman coming on Sunday to give me a quote on installing my split AC/Heat Pump system. The next step construction wize will be to find someone to refinish the garage floor.
Cheers everyone!!
Thanks for the update Dave. Sounds like some good things happening!
Water Level RouteThanks for the update Dave. Sounds like some good things happening!
Good things are indeed happening! I just ordered a proper rolling tool chest with a wood top. I have wanted one for 50+ years! Now I can take all of the clutter off of my ancient and crude 2x4 wood workbench and get it organized in the tool chest. That will be one thing off of my bucket list.
The wood top will provide a nice working surface for doing the layout. I hope it will be sturdy enough for me to mount my bench vice on it.
I finally did something that I should have done long ago. I measured the layout with the yard attached and compared it to the actual garage space. Everything fit in but I realized that the aisles at either end of the layout/yard assembly were rather narrow. To make the end aisles more comfortable, I cut 18" off of the end of the yard. The yard is still long enough to accommodate most of the trains that I will be running.
Then I asked myself why the end of the yard needed to be a separate module since the tracks on the module were now only 54". I decided that I will keep the yard as one single assembly but I am building it so that I can make that part of the yard into a seperate unit with only a couple of saw cuts and adding two casters. The entire unit will be on casters so that it can be rolled to one side if more space is needed for other projects.
Here is the garage with the layout in place:
The first question that many will ask (including Peter Lloyd-Lee) is why didn't I do an 'around the walls' design. The answer is that I don't want to have to get out of my chair every time I need to reach into the layout because my back just can't take it. I have to be able to operate the layout from a seated position. The reach-in distances for this layout are less than 24" with a couple of exceptions. My around the wall design had reach-ins of 30"+ and narrow aisles. Yes, an around the walls layout can be done with shorter reach-in distances but there were too many other compromises in terms of what scenes I wanted on the layout.
hon30critterThe first question that many will ask (including Peter Lloyd-Lee) is why didn't I do an 'around the walls' design.
I arranged for my AC/Heat Pump unit to be installed next Tuesday. The installation is a bit more expensive than I had hoped, but I have great confidance in the installer. I refuse to try to save a few bucks by going with people who don't impress me. The first person who quoted on the installation gleefully anounced that he was a close friend of my ex-neighbour. That neighbour was a drug dealer! We had SWAT teams visit his house on more than one occassion!
Dave: Looks like a great plan! Even better that it can fit your needs.
I am struggling with the design of my basement layout. I would love to have an around the walls track plan, but that would require at least one, and probably two duckunders/swing bridges. Doable, but not preferred. I also want visitors (many non-hobbyists) to be able to walk into the room and immediately be impressed (I hope) with a view of the railroad. I want a portion of the layout to have continuous running, for these visitors, but I also will build a branch with numerous switching opportunities.
I think I can get a folded dogbone with a long exterior branch line into a 19 x 40 space. The dogbone is going to have to fit in a central 12 x 30 space, as the wife has claimed some prime real estate along one wall for storage.
Hi Tin Can ll,
I had a folded dogbone planned at one point but I just didn't have enough space. All the curves were too tight and the reach in distances were excessive. I only had 10 ft x 20 ft. It sounds like you have a fair bit of space to work with.
The curves on this layout are tight too but I can reach everything.
I saw an HO layout a few years ago where the modeler had turned his lift out into a powered operating bascule bridge. It was quite impressive!
I got some quotes yesterday for having the garage floor cleaned up and re-surfaced. With one exception all of the quotes were for more than we can afford to spend on a garage floor. Everybody wants to sell me a fancy epoxy or polyaspartic finish but I just don't need that level of protection and I don't particularly like the appearance of the floors with the vinyl chips in them.
All I need is for the floor to be smooth and dust free. I have one quote which is affordable. It includes cleaning, etching, a self leveling concrete layer, and paint.
Doing the floor presents another challenge. We have rather crude wooden shelves along two walls that are covered with years of accumulated junk. Some of the stuff is still usable but a lot of it will go either to the curb or to the dump. I want to replace the open shelves with metal cabinets with casters and doors. Sorting through the junk will take a while but I am actually looking forward to cleaning the stuff up.
I spent most of the afternoon trying to simplify the wiring system. The double panels add a bit of complexity (and a whole bunch of wire!). I revised the panel wiring diagrams to make them easier to follow.
The AC/Heat pump system was installed to day and it works great! Both the inside unit and the outdoor unit are almost silent. Even with fan on max there is very little noise.
My new tool chest was delivered today. It is quite impressive (I'll post pictures later). Unfortunately it arrived locked and without the keys, but a quick call to the dealer solved that. The store manager is going to deliver them personally!
I also bought a heavy duty shelf system. I didn't realize how heavy duty it was until it arrived. It will hold 4500 lbs.! That's about 100 times the weight that we intend to put on it. It's okay, the price was good. No nuts or bolts needed to assemble it. Bonus!
Here is something I have wanted for 50 years. Now I just have to figure out how to organize it and then fill it.
The tool chest came with a protective plastic film on all the drawer fronts. It took me two hours to peel it all off! It came off in little pieces.
I'm going to mount my bench vise on it but I don't want to drill big holes in the wood top. I'm going to mount the vise on a piece of 2x6 and then screw that to the top. That will allow me to get a bit more overhang for the vise.
I have been playing with the lighting scheme for the garage (I think I'm going to start calling it the 'layout room'). I want two levels of lighting. One will be bright LED 4 ft. tubes that will illuminate the entire garage including the workbench. The other will be dimmable pot lighting that will be positioned over the layout only.
I'm also considering adding some dimmable spotlights that will shine on the walls to add a bit of background illumination when doing night time running. Thanks to my balance problems and neuropathy I have to be able to see the floor to be able to walk properly. I can't function in near total darkness.
I have attached a lighting plan. The garage, sorry, layout room is 500 square feet. There are two beams that cross the layout room about 10" below the ceiling. One is about 1 ft. wide and the other is about 36" wide because it contains a heating duct. I have designed the lighting to minimize the shadows caused by the beams.
Please tell me what you think.
hon30critter Here is something I have wanted for 50 years. Now I just have to figure out how to organize it and then fill it. The tool chest came with a protective plastic film on all the drawer fronts. It took me two hours to peel it all off! It came off in little pieces. I'm going to mount my bench vise on it but I don't want to drill big holes in the wood top. I'm going to mount the vise on a piece of 2x6 and then screw that to the top. That will allow me to get a bit more overhang for the vise. Cheers!! Dave
Well Dave, in your excitement, you got confused. You have to fill it first, THEN you can organize it. Tell ya what, obviously all this garage stuff, ahem, pardon me.... layout room stuff has got you frazzled.
Why dont ya send that nice, shiny, gorgeous looking lunch box on over here and I will fill it.
Whats that Dave? Ya want wha? W$*t wh%t D#%e? I ca^&* he#% &*u. I'm loosi^% you Dave. I c!( .....
(Dialtone)
Love the go fast looking box - worth the wait aye!
Clear Ahead!
PS: ya never shoulda peeled the plastic!
PSS: Now stop goofin off and get that layout built!
PM Railfan Love the go fast looking box - worth the wait aye! Clear Ahead! Douglas PS: ya never shoulda peeled the plastic!
Hi Douglas,
Ain't nobody gettin their grubby hands on my new tool box!!!!!
Of course, in the process of peeling said plastic off, I have already managed to get several finger prints on the pristene shiny surfaces. I was going to say something about how easy it is to lose one's virginity but I thought I'd better not just in case the Moderators got offended.
This thing has all the bells and whistles. If one drawer is open, it won't allow you to open a second drawer. When I was running the hardware dept. in the Peterborough Sears store (about 45 years ago) some clown came in screaming about how his tool chest had fallen over after he had opened three fully loaded drawers all at the same time. I had to stop myself from laughing.
PM RailfanNow stop goofin off and get that layout built!
Hi again Douglas,
As you may already know, I have hired Peter Lloyd-Lee to do the trackwork and the wiring for me. After making that decision I initially thought that I could mostly just sit back and wait for his arrival. Ha!! Stupid me!! I'm not sure that I actually have enough time to get ready for him when he comes next spring.
I have a number of tasks to complete before his arrival. The major challenge will be to get the garage/layout room finished. That will include getting rid of a ton of useless, outdated and expired containers of various automotive chemicals, CFL light bulbs, plumbing parts that I will never use, tools that I will never use again like piston ring compressors and bearing pullers...... the list goes on and on. I won't send anything that is still usable to the dump. We will donate it to Good Will.
Then we have to get the garage floor refinished. Currently it is a bare concrete floor that is spalling in several areas. There are no serious cracks and everything has been stable since we moved in 35 years ago, but I want to eliminate as many sources of dust as possible.
Then I will have the whole room re-wired. The current wiring runs helter skelter all over the place and there is only one switch to turn the whole mess on. I want several lighting circuits, namely one set of 4 ft. LED tubes that will light the entire garage very brightly, plus several dimmable LED lights directly over the layout, and some dimmable LED spotlights that will shine softly on the walls so that the floor is not totally dark when the layout is running at night.
The next step will be to get the walls and ceiling cleaned up. This will require a bit more than just a paint job. The walls and ceiling are full of screw holes and dints, and a few areas will require new drywall.
As if all that weren't enough, I am going to replace our current crude open wooden shelves with rolling metal cabinets.
I have probably bitten off more than I can chew between now and the spring, but I refuse to get stranded in my tracks no matter how heavy the snow is.
I got a quote for the garage floor refinishing today. I was quite pleased with the contractor when he first visited the house. Part of that was that he suggested that he could do the job for a very reasonable price. That gave me false hope. The quote came in at more than double what he had suggested so I think he was playing games.
I still have one gentleman who is a very small operator and I'm hoping he can do the job for less. Of course there is a risk in going with a low bid so I am a bit leary.
If I can't get the floor done for a decent price, I may just opt to paint it and put up with the slightly uneven surface.
I have started to sort through the junky shelves. I have incandescent and CFL bulbs coming out of my ears. Most of the bulbs in the house are now LEDs so there won't be a lot of demand for replacements. Maybe Good Will would be interested in them.
I am still recovering from my knee surgery and that is limiting what I can do in the garage. Very annoying. I have also stopped taking pain killers and I'm light headed and feeling rather weak. I'm going to blame that on drug withdrawal.[+o(
Drug addict Dave Layout Builder Dave, this is exciting hearing about all the plans. Let us know what you decide on the garage floor. I am considering something for our garage. In the winter snowy weather, the floor will get wet and it's so slippery you have to hang onto the car to walk. I think a refinished floor can be made to be non-slippery even when wet.
York1 Let us know what you decide on the garage floor.
Hi John,
Making that decision is turning out to be rather harder than I thought. It's not a question of materials but more an issue of justifying the cost.
I got a quote this morning from a contractor who suggested that his prices were quite reasonable. His quote was for more than double what he had initially said. He also included a list of things that he won't do! He's not getting the job!
I have two options. One is a complete professional refinish where the concrete will be ground smooth, sealed, have a bonding agent applied and then having a self leveling concrete layer applied. That will be followed by a heavy layer of one of a variety of materials like epoxy (cheaper but not the best long term), polyaspartic resin etc., and then a layer of vinyl chips will be applied to the wet floor. The floor is then finished with another coat of resin That option is pushing $8,000.
On the other end of the spectrum, I can just have the floor vaccumed, degreased, power washed and finally a coat of industrial floor paint applied. That doesn't address the slight spalling in the existing floor so the surface will not be perfectly smooth, but it also means that I can paint around obstacles like shelving legs instead of having to remove the entire shelf units. If I go that route, I may forego the fancy industrial rolling cabinets and just figure out how to hide the open shelves. The price will not likely exceed $1000. That's $7,000 in trains!!!! Hummmm....
It is going to take me a while to decide which way to go. We spent $6,500 on a new front door a couple of years ago. Does that justify spending thousands on the garage? I'm not sure. I said in a previous post that we couldn't afford the cost of a high end floor restoration. In truth, money is not the issue. On the other hand, if I don't spend the money it will just sit in some stupid investment and give us no pleasure whatsoever.
hon30critterI have two options. One is a complete professional refinish where the concrete will be ground smooth, sealed, have a bonding agent applied and then having a self leveling concrete layer applied. That will be followed by a heavy layer of one of a variety of materials like epoxy (cheaper but not the best long term), polyaspartic resin etc., and then a layer of vinyl chips will be applied to the wet floor. The floor is then finished with another coat of resin That option is pushing $8,000. On the other end of the spectrum, I can just have the floor vaccumed, degreased, power washed and finally a coat of industrial floor paint applied. That doesn't address the slight spalling in the existing floor so the surface will not be perfectly smooth, but it also means that I can paint around obstacles like shelving legs instead of having to remove the entire shelf units. If I go that route, I may forego the fancy industrial rolling cabinets and just figure out how to hide the open shelves. The price will not likely exceed $1000. That's $7,000 in trains!!!! Hummmm....
I think you're planning the layout so you can operate it from roll-around chair, right? If that's the case, the smooth floor is well worth the cost. Rolling around on even a slightly uneven floor would be much more difficult, and perhaps even hazardous if the concrete has spalled in places.
I would opt for the expensive treatment. Painful initially, but very long lasting satisfaction as a result.
PruittI think you're planning the layout so you can operate it from roll-around chair, right?
Right.
PruittIf that's the case, the smooth floor is well worth the cost. Rolling around on even a slightly uneven floor would be much more difficult,
Right again!
Crap Mark, there goes $7000 in trains!!!
Seriously, you have brought me back to the original reason for doing the floor and that is to have a smooth floor that is easy to roll both the chair and the layout around on, and won't trap dust and dirt.
hmmm 7g's in trains. Plus all the other work your doing. Some aspects of this hobby are just mind boggling!
I wanted to mention, instead of goodwill, your tools and what-not.... consider also of donating them to a College, High School, or other similar trade school for the benefit of learning new knuckle-busters the art of plumbing or automotive.
Before I switched to puters, my first collegiate forey was automotive technology. Tons of stuff was available due to donations. Private and corporate. This is actually where i got the V6 bug. I was a V8 guy till Buick went all darth vader.
We had a slew of Buick V6 'target motors' to play with. Plus marine diesels, Cat motors for diesel class. Turbos to transmissions! Unfortunately, nothing as promising as an EMD or the like. I dont guess many folk donate those. Everything else was.
Good luck on the floor thing, spensive, but flatness or smoothness for rolling the layout, youll pat yourself on the back for.
Do it safely!
hon30critterCrap Mark, there goes $7000 in trains!!!
Okay, I'm slowly getting over the theoretical loss of $7000 in train equipment. I will blame Mark and Douglas for that thanks to their sober advice.
I have been thinking about how to get the garage completely cleared out so that the floor can be done. I have two cabinets, a large shelf unit and a freezer that will be difficult, if not impossible, for me to move. It dawned on me that I could do the same thing that I have done with the layout by putting them on dollies! Uline makes dollies that will fit the cabinets and the shelf unit for reasonable prices so I have ordered three of them. I haven't figured out the freezer yet but I'm hoping I can find appliance rollers with swivel casters.
I also solved another challenge and that was what to do with my radial arm saw. I was going to use it to build the yard benchwork but I planned on getting rid of it afterwards because I don't see a future use for it. I have decided to get rid of it now and replace it with a 4 1/2" cordless circular saw. I will only be cutting 1" thick lumber so the mini saw will work fine for my purposes. I'll have to build a stand for my spray booth which currently resides on the RAS but that will be easy.
Dave, I think I know the answer to your problems.
You need to have some new neighbors move into your neighborhood. Make sure they have some teenage sons. Buy some gas station gift cards, and hand them out to the boys after they move all the stuff. It might help if you have some cute teenage granddaughters or nieces who can stay at your house for a day or two.
So John, what you are suggesting is that I should hook my granddaughters up with some local boys just to get cheap labour! I don't have any granddaughters but if I did, I wonder what their parents would have to say about that!?
My grandson will be able to help me. Oh, wait, he's only three months old.
The garage renovation is slowly coming along. I spent a lot of time researching refinishing methods for the floor and I have settled on Polyaspartic resin, and I think I have found a reputable company to do the work for a fair price. I had to filter through a few idiots when getting quotes.
One of the challenges is getting the garage completely cleaned out so the floor can be done. Today I received four industrial quality dollies which will be installed under two cabinets, a shelving unit and the freezer that we already have. When the time comes they can simply be rolled out onto the driveway and covered while they are still loaded. The floor job takes one full day to complete and one day to cure so the stuff doesn't have to stay outside for too long. Crime isn't an issue in our neighbourhood.
I still need three or four more cabinets to hold all our stuff including a lot of train items. Decent quality steel cabinets are expensive so I'm still searching for alternatives. I may opt for open shelf units and just foregoe the nice appearance of closed cabinets. It really is just an issue of cosmetics.
I haven't decided what to do with the walls and ceiling. They are drywalled but they still look awful. I may just hire someone to clean up all the dints and screw holes and have them painted. I can't justify the cost of slat walls and, quite frankly, I don't think they would be useful.
I have designed a lighting plan that will have three components. One will be general lighting which is already in place. The second will be dedicated layout lighting over the layout only, and the third will wall lighting which will be fairly dim. I want to be able to illuminate the floor a bit when doing night time operations. My balance issues cause real problems when I can't see the floor.
Hi gang!
I'm going to let this post go mostly dorment because the garage project is waiting for an inheritance to arrive and who knows how long that will take. I'll post again when something major has been accomplished.
hon30critter York1 Let us know what you decide on the garage floor. Hi John, Making that decision is turning out to be rather harder than I thought. It's not a question of materials but more an issue of justifying the cost. I got a quote this morning from a contractor who suggested that his prices were quite reasonable. His quote was for more than double what he had initially said. He also included a list of things that he won't do! He's not getting the job! I have two options. One is a complete professional refinish where the concrete will be ground smooth, sealed, have a bonding agent applied and then having a self leveling concrete layer applied. That will be followed by a heavy layer of one of a variety of materials like epoxy (cheaper but not the best long term), polyaspartic resin etc., and then a layer of vinyl chips will be applied to the wet floor. The floor is then finished with another coat of resin That option is pushing $8,000. On the other end of the spectrum, I can just have the floor vaccumed, degreased, power washed and finally a coat of industrial floor paint applied. That doesn't address the slight spalling in the existing floor so the surface will not be perfectly smooth, but it also means that I can paint around obstacles like shelving legs instead of having to remove the entire shelf units. If I go that route, I may forego the fancy industrial rolling cabinets and just figure out how to hide the open shelves. The price will not likely exceed $1000. That's $7,000 in trains!!!! Hummmm.... It is going to take me a while to decide which way to go. We spent $6,500 on a new front door a couple of years ago. Does that justify spending thousands on the garage? I'm not sure. I said in a previous post that we couldn't afford the cost of a high end floor restoration. In truth, money is not the issue. On the other hand, if I don't spend the money it will just sit in some stupid investment and give us no pleasure whatsoever. Cheers!! Dave
I got a nice slap in the face today from Immigration Canada. Those are the folks who decide who can come here from outside Canada to work. I discovered that Peter Lloyd-Lee needs a Work Permit Exemption so he can come into the country to work on my layout. He's only going to be working for about eight days but paperwork is still required.
What we are actually requesting at this point is an opinion from the government about whether he needs a work permit or not. The complexity of the process is mind boggling! I ended up hiring an immigration lawyer to handle the process. The lawyer is NOT working for free!!!!
If the government does say that he requires a full work permit, that puts an end to Peter working on my layout. Legal fees start at $4000 and I would have to prove that nobody in Canada does the same work. Bullocks!!
I must say that Peter has been very cooperative. He supplied the lawyers with all the information that they requested the same day.
I'll keep you posted.
I believe the word you are looking for is "bollox". A bullocks is a male member of the ocks family.
maxmanI believe the word you are looking for is "bollox". A bullocks is a male member of the ocks family.
Hi maxman,
Actually the word I was looking for was 'bollocks' which in common British (vulgar) English means either 'testicles' or 'nonsense'. In order to avoid offending the moderators, I was using it in the later sense.
I seem to be offending Spell Check more and more often in my old age! I'm not going to worry about it!
Hey, Dave -
Too bad Peter couldn't just come and "visit" you for eight days. After all, you're surely buddies by now, eh? Yeah, I know, the cat's already out of the bag. And you're likely not the type to risk running afoul of Ottawa!
John
Attuvian1Too bad Peter couldn't just come and "visit" you for eight days.
Yes, wouldn't that be wonderful. However, as you said, I'm not willing risk either Peter's integrity or mine. No model railroad is worth taking that chance. Canada's immigration laws have been established for a reason and that is part of the reason that we have a largely civil society. Peter is obviously not a threat, but the government doesn't know that until we prove it to them.
That's incredible Dave. I wish you luck on this.
The rules in Canada are getting weird and expencive. As a younger person I would visit almost once a year, no passport needed, they just asked why I was there which was to visit family.
rrebell The rules in Canada are getting weird and expencive. As a younger person I would visit almost once a year, no passport needed, they just asked why I was there which was to visit family.
This isn't about visiting Canada, this is about going to Canada to work. It's no different than someone coming to the US to work. If you want to get paid openly (and legally), you need to follow the immigration rules.
I worked in Canada for nearly a year back around 1994. I did need a work permit, but it was no big deal.
I was a contractor at Dehavilland airplane company in Toronto. Maybe the contract house took care of all the fees and paperwork baloney. And maybe it's gotten a lot worse than it was back then.
What a pain!
hon30critterActually the word I was looking for was 'bollocks'
Yeah, I know. Seems I can't manage to go from the tab that had the correct spelling to the tab where this forum resides without managing to remember the correct spelling.
Too many candy corn.
Seems in Canada now it is all about the wording. You should have him come and teach you how to build model railroads, speeded up permit and way less cost.
PruittI worked in Canada for nearly a year back around 1994. I did need a work permit, but it was no big deal. I was a contractor at Dehavilland airplane company in Toronto.
I don't suppose you happened to meet a gentleman by the name of Guenter Bacus? He worked at Dehavilland at that time. I know that it was a large operation but ".....it's a small world after all" so who knows. He had a German accent and one wonky eye. He was our next door neighbour for 35 years. Wonderful man!
We are still waiting for the government's opinion on whether or not Peter needs a work permit. Patience is a virtue.
I have suffered what I hope is a temporary setback with my new knee. About a month ago it started to get painfull and the pain increased to the point last week where I could barely stand on it. The x-rays didn't reveal any obvious problems so I have to have a bone scan. The upshot is that I may not be able to do some of the prep work that I had planned on completing prior to Peter's arrival next May. The biggest task was to build the benchwork for the yard, so I may have to ask Peter to do that for me. It isn't complicated so it should only take a day or so to complete.
Bad news! The Canadian Ministry of Employment and Immigration has decided that Peter does need a full work permit in order to come to Canada to work on my layout. The application process for a work permit costs several thousands of dollars and requires that we jump through hoops to satisfy the requirements. I am simply not prepared to put that much money into a small layout! Between the fee that Peter will be paid, the cost of renovating the garage properly, and the work permit application fees, I'm looking at upwards of $25,000 Cdn!
I still intend to finish building the layout, and I at least want to fix the garage floor. Working on the layout by myself is going to be difficult and will take some time, but I'm not giving up!
Dave, that is frustrating to hear. I can't imagine your feelings on it. I applaud your determination too. Are there any friends from your former club that may be willing to help you?
Water Level RouteAre there any friends from your former club that may be willing to help you?
I hesitate to ask any members from the club to help me. I am no longer an active member so I am not contributing anything to the club. It would seem to me to be selfish to make such a request.
There is another factor and that is the weather. The club members would be coming from Barrie which is about 30 miles north of us, and Barrie suffers severe winter weather on a frequent basis. White out conditions are common. The members who I might ask to help are all well up in their senior years and I choose to not risk exposing them to harsh weather.
You may recall that I built the benchwork so that it could be tilted to allow access to the underside of the layout. I will make good use of that although progress may be slow.
There is one positive that will come from cancelling the contract. With the layout construction contract and refinishing the entire garage included in the cost, the price per square foot of layout would have been more than $250.00 Cdn. That is rather pricey real estate.
hon30critterI hesitate to ask any members from the club to help me. I am no longer an active member so I am not contributing anything to the club. It would seem to me to be selfish to make such a request.
I do recall your rotisserie layout benchwork. Very cool concept.
Dave,
I have not been following this thread but what if...
All the work would be done in TN so no work permit needed? Guessing there may be a fee transporting the layout into CA but it could be less expensive than the work permit.
FWIW,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
So, if you have friends/relatives stay at your place for a week and they happen to help you build something in your garage, they would need work permits?
It is difficult for me to believe that the RCMP actually patrols neighborhoods checking for illegal model railroad benchwork construction. I would think that Dudley Doright would have more important duties.
tstageI have not been following this thread but what if... Peter builds the entire 5'-4" x 12' layout in TN Disassembles it (if needed) Transports and drops off the layout in your garage when 1) your garage is completed and 2) the weather is conducive Your friends finish assembling/installing the layout
Hi Tom,
That would normally be the way that Peter works, but the problem is that I have already built most of the benchwork. All I wanted Peter to do was install the wiring and the track and hook up the control panels.
maxmanSo, if you have friends/relatives stay at your place for a week and they happen to help you build something in your garage, they would need work permits?
Sorry, but I am not inclined to break the law. Peter would be asked to explain the purpose for his trip to Canada at the border. I am not about to ask him to lie, and I seriously doubt that he, being a devout Jehovah's Witness, would be inclined to lie as well.
If Peter was caught lying, he would be refused entry to Canada and that ban would last for at least three years and possibly longer. He wants to visit Canada as a tourist in the near future and I am not willing to either risk him being labelled as a law breaker or be banned from the country. Call me a fool if you wish, but I will not compromise my ethics nor his just to build a model railway.
hon30critter tstage I have not been following this thread but what if... Peter builds the entire 5'-4" x 12' layout in TN Disassembles it (if needed) Transports and drops off the layout in your garage when 1) your garage is completed and 2) the weather is conducive Your friends finish assembling/installing the layout Hi Tom, That would normally be the way that Peter works, but the problem is that I have already built most of the benchwork. All I wanted Peter to do was install the wiring and the track and hook up the control panels. Cheers!! Dave
tstage I have not been following this thread but what if... Peter builds the entire 5'-4" x 12' layout in TN Disassembles it (if needed) Transports and drops off the layout in your garage when 1) your garage is completed and 2) the weather is conducive Your friends finish assembling/installing the layout
Thanks for the explanation, Dave. Is it just benchwork you constructed - i.e. no trackage or scenery? If so...and I'm just throwing this out there...
What would be the price difference if Peter builds the benchwork and does the wiring in TN and you dismantle what you've done and re-purpose it for another project?
Again, just throwing that idea out there - not knowing how extensive your present benchwork is.
tstageWhat would be the price difference if Peter builds the benchwork and does the wiring in TN and you dismantle what you've done and re-purpose it for another project?
I hadn't thought of that option, but I think it could easily be more expensive than getting a full work permit so Peter can come here. Shipping alone could be a couple thousand dollars.
As far as being able to use the existing benchwork for other purposes, I think that salvaging anything useful would be rather difficult. The existing benchwork is very substantially built! The main table is only supported at the ends of its 12' length (remember that is is designed to rotate to make the underside easy to access), and it will hold several hundred lbs. without flexing more than about 3/8" in the center. I know. I have put my full 285 lbs. on it with it already holding about a dozen long pieces of 1 x 6 lumber and numerous other tools and heavy bits. Every joint is glued and screwed. I think that the only way it would come apart is with a sawsall. It would just end up as scrap.
I'm going to go at it a bit at a time. The first challenge will be to get the benchwork completely cleared off. Dianne and I were working on that on Sunday. The next challenge will be to get the table completely smooth. There are a couple of high spots where the 2" pink foam didn't get glued down properly, and a couple of low spots too. I'm only talking fractions of an inch but there is no use laying track on a surface that is even slightly irregular.
On a side note, we put a split AC/heat pump system in the layout room/garage last summer. It hasn't been used other than to test it after it was installed. It is not working! The warranty covers parts but not labour.
If he dose a workshop for you and your freinds no permit is required as long as it is not longer than 5 days. (spent my life finding loophole in goverment regs as part of my jobs)
rrebellIf he dose a workshop for you and your freinds no permit is required as long as it is not longer than 5 days.
Hi rrebell,
Are those Canadian rules or American rules?
Canadian rules, you have to read what the rules are and not what they intend. US example, we lived in an area with rules on trees, you could not cut down trees of a certain diamiter or larger. There was a palm tree I wanted gone as the kids were young and falling faunds are not good. I just cut it down and city could not say a thing as palm trees at that time were consided a grass by the Federal goverment and Fed tops state and local things in most cases, I cut a blade of grass is all, neibor liked it and did same, got lots more mainly in buisness. As a side note both my parents were Canadian even though i was born in US. They both became US citizens but my mom did not till her 80's with my dad doing it shortly after I was born. Draftboard did not like my long stays in Canada during the Veitnam war but we owned part of a farm up ther for a long time.
rrebellCanadian rules, you have to read what the rules are and not what they intend.
Call me a fool, but I'm afraid that I am not comfortable with that approach in this case. I'd comment further but I would probably offend the moderators. Please understand that I am not disparaging what you did for a living, and I fully understand the situation that lead to the removal of the palm trees.
I'm going to be talking to my lawyer later today to see what our options are.
Look forward to your lawyers advice. Hey even if you didn't like what I did for a living it would be no big deal. People are always hating on landlords, but they have no clue to the stress every month that goes on or the risks involved in owning rentals and just about finished with the last of the stress of selling my last property years after the papers were signed due to the structure of the sale (yeah you better be well versed in law as a landlord or hire someone who is).
rrebellLook forward to your lawyers advice.
I finally have a fixed time to speak to the lawyer. It will be over the phone because he is in Quebec, but I will let you know what the outcome is.
Dianne and I are continuing to work on cleaning out the garage. We now have five blue bins full of old chemicals and paints and two blue bins full of incandescent, CFL and halogen bulbs which we will never use. We still have about ten ft. of floor to ceiling shelving that needs to be addressed. I am absolutely amazed by the amount of useless junk I have allowed to accumulate in the garage.
You may recall that I installed a heating/air conditioning system in the garge last September to try to make the place comforable all year round. The split system was finally hooked up last week and guess what - it didn't work!. Or, to be more honest, it didn't seem to work. I called up Senville and they suspected that there must be a leak somewhere in the refrigerant line. They suggested that I call the folks who had installed the system originally. Forunately for me, the tech owner and operator happened to be driving by the house in the next few minutes.
It turned out that I wasn't being nearly patient enough. Split systems take a while before they can put out heat. So just drop your worries, start the heat pump, and wait for things to happen. Mine took about nine minutes before it started to work and about 60 mins. for it to actually heat the entire garage space to about 50 degrees F with an outside temperature of about 25 degrees F.
I'm going to run the system overnight and I will report back tomorrow.
hon30critterrrebell Look forward to your lawyers advice.
Basically, the lawyer said that the only way we can get Peter here to work on the layout would be to acquire a Work Permit. That would cost several thousand dollars in legal and advertising fees, and take months. Just for starters, we would have to post advertizements in major newspapers all across Canada in order to prove that there isn't anyone here in Canada who does the type of work that Peter does.
Putting that sort of money into the layout just isn't going to happen. The entire layout is less than 70 sq. ft. In other words, if I were to pay for a work permit, the costs alone would be +- $100.00Cdn./sq. ft. including what I have already spent just for the opinion on whether or not we needed a work permit.
Peter was concerned about whether or not the request for an opinion would interefere with his ability to visit Canada as a tourist in the future. My lawyer has offered to issue a letter explaining what we have done and will not do in the future, i.e., try to sneak Peter into the country so he can do the work on the sly.
My only option personally is to go at the project a bit at a time myself. Hopefully my mobility will continue to improve. That would help a lot!
The split AC/Heat pump system was working much better today! The outside temperature has only gone up by about 2 degrees C but the warmth coming out of the system has increased 10 fold.
The manual does explain that it may be neccessary to use an additional heat source in cold weather. Tonight I am running a very small electric heater on low to see if that makes a significant difference. So far the addition of the little heater has brought the garage up to about 15 degrees C which I find to be very comfortable when I am working. However, it does beg the question of whether or not the split system was a waste of money as far as heating goes. Next I'm going to try just running the small fan alone, but I will not leave it unattended for long periods.
Stay tuned,
hon30critterHowever, it does beg the question of whether or not the split system was a waste of money as far as heating goes.
My new knee is finally starting to feel more stable after the infection and my balance is getting better. Hopefully I will be able to do some work on the layout after Christmas. The first task will be to take a ton of old paint cans, oil cans, half used insectisides and other nasty chemicals to the hazardous waste section at the dump. We already have five large blue recycling bins full of the stuff and there are still a couple of shelves to sort through. It is sobering to see how much hazardous waste we have accumulated over the years.
Wow, just got caught up on reading this thread.
Dave, sorry for all the difficulty you are encountering.
Being in construction myself, and having a friend who is a professional layout builder, and having been a landlord for 26 years myself before selling all the rentals, I have lots of reactions here.
Some of which I guess I shoud keep to myself.
Being a landlord - I know nothing about Canada, but here in the US it was the best money we ever made. And we rented out houses I would be proud to live in myself.
As politely as possible - I have a hard time imagining living under a government that deep into my business/perosnal life. I think that sort of thing is long out of control here in the US, and it is nothing like you are describing.
I understand the garage is likely the only space you have for the layout - I have never considered garages good environments for layouts unless they are fully converted to "living space". And as residential designer and a builder, not sure I would have picked a split system heat pump, but I do understand why you did. My first choices for heat are always fossil fuels - despite the propaganda, they are the most efficient, especially in cold climates - a propane space heater? And a simple thru the wall A/C unit?
I have never been to Canada, the one time I might have, passport in hand, my wife simply said "no, I don't want go". We were in Niagara Falls, and interestingly once she saw the falls, she was ready to leave. We spent the rest of that long weekend seeing other sites in upstate NY and in PA.
I have helped lots of guys build layouts, I have designed layouts and helped build them. I have gotten paid for some more adavanced layout work, like designing and installing the control system I use on a layout of a friend.
If this is what it is coming to, it is a sad day for freedom.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALIf this is what it is coming to, it is a sad day for freedom.
Hi Sheldon,
Actually, the laws concerning foreign workers are pretty much the same in both Canada and the USA. If you are a foreigner working in the USA without a Green Card and get caught, you will be going home on the next flight.
The Free Trade Act was supposed to do away with all of this manure, but of course the bureaucrats got their hands on things and ruined it for everybody.
Without wishing to upset the Moderators, I'd say that Canada is still a pretty free place to be.
hon30critter ATLANTIC CENTRAL If this is what it is coming to, it is a sad day for freedom. Hi Sheldon, Actually, the laws concerning foreign workers are pretty much the same in both Canada and the USA. If you are a foreigner working in the USA without a Green Card and get caught, you will be going home on the next flight. The Free Trade Act was supposed to do away with all of this manure, but of course the bureaucrats got their hands on things and ruined it for everybody. Without wishing to upset the Moderators, I'd say that Canada is still a pretty free place to be. Cheers!! Dave
ATLANTIC CENTRAL If this is what it is coming to, it is a sad day for freedom.
Just to be clear, my freedom comment applies as much to what is going on here as it does to anywhere else.
Building a new structure or addition has become a rediculous exercise is overkill regulations anyplace where there is any kind of population density in the US.
And in the US building construction regulation is done on a local level, county or city government - not even at the state level. There are 23 counties just in our little state of Maryland. That is 23 different agencies issing building permits. there are 3,143 counties in the US.........
Fortunately interior remodeling is mostly ignored by our local government unless it very extensive - like redoing the whole house.
As I approach retirement we have moved away from large projects are are doing mostly stuff like bathrooms and kitchens.
I also do residential design work, which again has become less and less fun as the regulatory environment gets more complex. An in my opinion, after building stuff for 45 years, and restoring old houses for nearly that long, most of these regulations do not make the houses better, nor do they prevent substandard work.
So let me ask you this, where you are, can homeowners do their own work?
Happy to be retiring soon.
You should see some of the work appoved by inspectors. Back in the day I got an inspection done in Maryland for an apt building and it it passed, no problem except no one ever bothered to enter the building.
rrebell You should see some of the work appoved by inspectors. Back in the day I got an inspection done in Maryland for an apt building and it it passed, no problem except no one ever bothered to enter the building.
Maybe not so much now, but back in the day it happened all the time. We have an interesting situation in our little town. Our county only has three incorporated small towns. The county handles all the building inspections, but technically the three towns have jurisdiction inside their town limits.
So the towns each have a building department, and town residents/contractors have to apply for their building permits there for work in the town. And there is a guy in charge of that department. But the county inspector comes to do the actual inspection.
Our town is very historic (incorporated 1785) with lots of old buildings, most very well maintained and many in very original condition. And tourism/town image is a very big deal.
So the town fathers are very interested in historic preservation and go to great lengths to support private individuals in caring for their properties in that regard.
So the town buiding code official has the last say about what is allowed and what needs a permit, and when exceptions can be made to modern codes for historic reasons. The State also has a historic presevation code that gives local government this option/power.
I do lots of work in the town, and if it is of a repair nature, no one even asks if you you have a permit unless you have to close a street or something.
8 years ago we did a complete restoration of one of the larger homes in town, 17 months, complete restoration, inside and out, and while we did have permits for electrical, plumbing, HVAC and one area of structural changes, we had no resistance from the inspector.
We rebuilt a large porch, replaced missing architectural elements, replaced all the windows with historically correct looking updated ones, replaced all the plumbing and electric, and much more with only minimal inspections of the mechanical systems and that one area of framing, which was to make a 1960's addition better match the 1904 original structure.
None of this work to repair the porch and replace missing features that had been changed over the years required a permit - it was considered a repair. When I asked the town building commisioner if he wanted drawings for the rebuilding of the porch turret roof his answer was "no, just have the inspector glance at it the next time he is there". The inspector is a semi retired historic Architect....
The final inspction was a simple walk thru.
It is understood that while safety and good workmanship is necessary, nit picking an old house about modern codes is just not going to happen in this town.
In fact when we had an issue with the sewer line, the Public Works Dept was right there and very helpful.
Common sense still exists in some places.
ATLANTIC CENTRALSo let me ask you this, where you are, can homeowners do their own work?
Homeowners can do their own work but they still have to get all the permits and inspections. The DIYers will probably be inspected very thoroughly, but the seasoned, reliable contractors often just get a signature without the work being looked at.
Brings back memories, my mentor used to say as long as you reuse one nail, it is a repair, LOL.
Hi folks,
I am slowly making progress in the garage layout room. I managed to sell my Radial Arm Saw (gave it away would be more accurate - they don't sell for much these days). Getting it out of the garage opened up a whole lot of space!
The floor definitely has to be properly refinished! I was trying to roll the layout table around and it would hardly budge. I used 4" heavy duty casters but I should have used much larger casters! I may swap them for 8" units at some point. I won't have the floor done until next summer even though the garage is heated because the floor slab extends beyond the garage doors by about 10".
We are still sorting through all the junk on the shelves. We have seven medium sized totes and boxes full of stuff to go to recycling and there is still more to sort through.
I will have to build a stand for my spray booth. I had been using the RAS table. It doesn't have to be anything fancy but I do want it on casters.
Some of you will have read this in the Diner, but I thought I would post it here as well because it relates directly to my layout.
I saw some aged concrete sidewalks on eBay and they initially looked like something worth investing in. However, upon closer examination, I realized that the cracks in the slabs were not realistic.
There were two problems. The first was that most of the cracks started in the middle of the slabs, not at the edge or at an expansion joint. Concrete slabs can certainly have cracks that do not go all the way across the slab, but those cracks will not be wide enough to see in HO. A slab has to completely break into two pieces before the crack can be widened by frost or the ground settling underneath.
The second problem was that most of the cracks crossed directly over the expansion joints from one slab to the next. That's definitely not realistic. The whole idea behind molding perpendicular joints into the concrete is to stop cracks at the joints. Slabs that are next to each other may both have cracks but they won't (usually) line up at the expansion joints.
Call me fussy, but those crack patterns would drive me nuts over time.
I took the liberty of contacting the seller to mention how I thought the cracks should be placed, and he got right back to me! I was fully expecting to get a blast telling me to mind my own business but he was actually very gratefull for my suggestion. Within a few hours he had modified his design so I put my money where my mouth was and bought 2800' on the spot.
The cracks and joints need to be muted a bit, and they need some weathering, but they are going to save me a ton of works.
I just scored a set of five PRR TOFC flatcars with trailers on them. The price was right and they are new in their boxes so I'm happy. I now have about 25 TOFC cars with trailers.
Then I stopped to think about how I would actually use all of these flatcars on the layout and I realized that all I could do with the current plan would be to run them around in circles. That will get boring really fast! The net result was that I went back to my layout plan and eliminated several industries so I could design a decent transfer yard.
In no time at all I had what I think is a decent working yard. It will hold 17 flat cars on four tracks with a fifth track available for switching, and it has a run around as well.
I'll have to study it a bit more to make sure that it works, but the important thing is that I now have desinations for all my favourite types of trains.
I have decided to admit to myself that my creative juices just aren't flowing as far as making any real progress on the layout is concerned. I'm not going to stress about it. I'm simply going to take a break for a month or two, or maybe longer.
You may recall all of the hurdles I went through to try to hire a custom layout builder from the US only to be told by the government that it would cost thousands of dollars to get the proper approvals. Well, I thought I had found a custom layout builder in London, Ontario. Unfortunately his website is "under construction" and he is not responding to my emails. Oh well, I will keep looking.
Indeed, it seems that there are no other outfits that advertize their services in Ontario - or even in Canada overall. I would ask the Georges Trains staff - if someone knows a pro or semi-pro in Southern Ontario, it would be them. I also wonder what would happen if you placed an ad on Marketplace or Kijiji.
Simon
snjroyI would ask the Georges Trains staff - if someone knows a pro or semi-pro in Southern Ontario, it would be them.
Hi Simon,
That's a good idea! In fact, I could put the word out to several hobby shops.
I am back working on the layout, or at least, preparing to work on it. We have hired our nephew, Joe, to do a bunch of work around the house much of which will be to organize the garage/layout room. I'm also going to try to recruit him to build the yard area benchwork.
I have ordered all the benchwork materials needed for the yard, and I will order the remaining storage cabinets and shelving units as soon as we can work out a schedule for getting them assembled. All the cabinets and shelf units will be on wheels so they can easily be moved out of the way when it comes time to refinish the floor. I have also purchased some steel storage racks so we will have a place to store all the benchwork lumber when it arrives.
The work will start in a couple of weeks. I'll keep you posted.
Great news! Hope it goes well.
York1Great news! Hope it goes well.
Thanks John!
I have been using the split heater/air conditioner to take the chill off of the garage over the last few days and it works really well.
Good to hear Dave!
Finally, some real progress on the layout! The garage had tons of junk in it that was no longer useful so we hired our nephew Joe to come stay with us for a couple of days to help us out. Yesterday we cut up about 20 cardboard boxes and bundled them up to go to the curb. We took six boxes of hazardous waste to the dump. We got rid of a ton of outdated mechanic's tools like a timing light, compression tester, vacuum gauge, piston ring compressor etc. This stuff was ancient and the rubber components had dried out long ago.
We also installed a lumber storage rack to hold the dimensional lumber that I have ordered to build the large train yard. Now the wood won't be sitting on the train table.
The best part was that we built two storage cabinets and one large metal shelf unit, all on casters, so now I can get all my unbuilt rolling stock kits, the RTR boxes, locomotives and various other train related bits off of my workbench and into proper storage.
Joe is also helping us with several jobs around the house which Dianne and I can no longer do. We won't have Joe for long though. He has enlisted in the Royal Canadian Navy and will likely start his basic training this summer. He scored in the 99th percentile on his recruiting tests!
I'll post some pictures of the garage when all the current jobs are done.
More progress today!
We completely emptied about 10 ft. of wooden shelving that ran from floor to ceiling and got all of the stuff (crap, junk, garbage.....you name it!) sorted out from the buried tools and other still useful bits. I think we filled two large garbage bags.
Once we had all the stuff sorted, I started to move things into my new tool cabinet. I was able to get almost all of my power tools into the larger drawers in the cabinet, and I got all of the small packages of various sized wood and machine screws, nuts, bolts and washers, picture hangers etc. into one drawer where I can finally actually see what sizes I have. I was amazed at how small a space the screws etc. took when they were properly organized!
We also got rid of my ancient and very crude workbench. That was very theraputic. It had rarely served as a workbench over the past 35 years, but it worked amazingly well at accumulating piles of junk!
The next task will be to sort through my parts bins. I have four medium sized 40 drawer parts cabinets which are full of everything you can imagine! I got a start tonight by throwing out two drawers full of totally useless MGB carburetor parts. I haven't owned an MGB since 1985! I'm sure I could write for hours about all the stupid bits I have saved but I will spare you the gory details.
That's good to hear Dave.
I hear ya about old car parts. I kept parts of my old 1972 BMW many years after I sold it. I just loved that car. It's just so hard to let go on these things!
Tools are my downfall, they used to be so expencive, now they are cheap. Just bought some new Philips bits for my drills, less than $5 for a full set of lengths of 5, best I have ever owned as they are the new grip type, so good widh I had bought double set.
What model was your '72 BMW? I had a '72 2002tii. It had mechanical fuel injection and it went like stink! My wife used to complain about splayed toes from trying to keep herself in her seat. Loved that car!
I just ordered three more storage units from Uline. I was planning on ordering five cabinets/shelf units but I was pleasantly surprised to see how much the cabinets, shelf unit and tool cabinet that I already purchased could hold!
All of the cabinets, shelf units and the layout will be on casters so, when the time comes to refinish the floor, I will be able to roll everything out of the garage leaving the floor completely empty.
Speaking of the layout, I have approached our nephew to ask if he would be interested in helping me build the benchwork for the large yard. He has no experience but we worked really well together cleaning up the garage so I'm sure I can teach him.
Once all the cabinets and shelves are set up I'm going to hire an electrician to redo the wiring and lighting in the garage. Over the years it has become a real mess (thanks to me). There are cables running everywhere! It has been pronounced safe by an electrician but it looks like crap and there is more lighting needed. I want to have bright lights for working, dimmable lights that focus on the layout for running, and lighting under the layout that projects into the aisles so I can see where I am walking.
hon30critter Hi Simon, What model was your '72 BMW? I had a '72 2002tii. It had mechanical fuel injection and it went like stink! My wife used to complain about splayed toes from trying to keep herself in her seat. Loved that car! Cheers!! Dave
I'm sitting on the deck enjoying a beautiful evening after spending another day sorting the garage. I must have accomplished something because my clothes are absolutely filthy!
We were supposed to get two more cabinets plus a shelf unit and two dollies delivered today but there is no sign of them yet. The cabinets and shelves will allow me to get everything off of the layout by the end of next week.
The next step will be to repair the walls and ceiling. They are a real mess as a result of having numerous screws and nails inserted over the years. Once that's done we can paint. I'd like to get the floor refinished sometime this summer if funds permit.
My neighbor put in some storage units in his garage, and they look great. You'll have to let us see a photo of your garage when you're done!
York1You'll have to let us see a photo of your garage when you're done!
I absolutely will! I took some pictures today of the walls showing how badly marked up they are.
I hope to have everything done except the floor by early June. Then will come the electrical work. Then, I will actually go back to work on the layout!
We just got back from a recycling run. We took about 40lbs of scrap metal, mostly nuts, bolts and screws with some larger chunks thrown in, to The Lions Club who were having a scrap metal collection day. For the first time in 40 years my parts bins are sorted into a reasonably logical order and all the bins with miscellanious junk are gone!
l also took a bunch of new incandescent light bulbs along with some electric and plumbing items to the Re-Store.
I am amazed by how much junk we got rid of! It was very cathartic.
I have been playing with the garage lighting plan. I want to have two separate sets of lights, one for general work lighting, and the second will be gimbled spotlights that will be focused directly on the layout. The lighting will consist of 16 - 4000k LED broad beam lights and 7 narrow focus 4000k spots. I want both systems to have the same colour values so that I can see what things will look like on the layout when working on it.
There will be a lot of wiring involved obviously. Currently all of the wiring is exposed and it looks like heck. Adding a bunch more wiring will make it look even worse. To eliminate the problem, I have decided to have a false ceiling installed so that all the wiring can be hidden.
I have an excellent contractor available who did a masterful job of renovating our kitchen and dining areas a few years ago including putting in a false ceiling with pot lights. The false ceiling only takes a total of 2" away from the height, and the modern LED pot lights are only 1 1/4" deep. I have checked that there will still be enough clearance for the garage doors.
The improvement in appearance will be well worth the expense.