Our club moved from it's old location and into new quarters about three years ago. At this point, all the disassembled section of the previous layout are back in place along with the new ones needed to reconnect everything back together and confirm to the new floor plan.
We are now in need of a scale drawing of the final layout so areas for scenery and structures can be marked out and assigned for development. What we are hoping to find is a program which would allow us to do such a drawing. We could then get it enlarged and the post it in a wall for members to view.
I am wondering if any of you could recommend a program that would allow us to do that?
Thanks,
Dan
I tried a couple layout planning software when I was planning my current layout over 20 years ago and I ended up going back to using old fashioned graph paper, compass, protractor, straight edge, and pencil with eraser. I found it a lot easier to work with than what was available at the time. I'm sure the software has imroved a lot in the last 20+ years but if I was going to plan a new layout, which I'm not, I'd still take the low tech approach.
John-NYBW I tried a couple layout planning software when I was planning my current layout over 20 years ago and I ended up going back to using old fashioned graph paper, compass, protractor, straight edge, and pencil with eraser. I found it a lot easier to work with than what was available at the time. I'm sure the software has imroved a lot in the last 20+ years but if I was going to plan a new layout, which I'm not, I'd still take the low tech approach.
I get where you are coming from. I still have some photos from 40+ years ago of large pieces of brown paper taped together and tacked to a large wall in our family room where I was drawing out a full scale plan of my "new" layout using track and turnout templates.
I would imagine that an up to date program for track planning would not only allow someone to draw a new plan, but replicate an existing one. I would just like to hear from anyone has used a good one and who feels it would help us do what we want to do.
Even after doing a fairly detailed track plan with the pencil and paper method, I found I had to do some onsite adjustments once I started laying track. I found that some things didn't work as well in 3D as they did in 2D and sometime I just got better ideas as I was building. Still, the layout I ended up with looks very much like the original track plan.
I have tried a couple of track planning programs. The biggest problem is the learning curve. I went back to drafting by hand.
CadRail will do that for you. That's what I use for my track planning. You can print the plan, or you can copy an image of the plan and have it printed on a large format pinter at someplace like FedEx/Kinko's.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
My layout was fully and successfuly planned in 3rd PlanIt. Like any CAD package there is a learning curve. If none of your cadre has experience with modern CAD, nor is willing to take up the challenge, I recommend good old fashioned squared paper, pencil and ruler. Of course the caveat of GIGO applies to either technology.
D
da29. the artist formerly known as da1.
I spent most of my working life as a mainframe programmer. An IBM rep said something that stuck with me to this day. A computer is a great tool for doing one thing a million times. It's a poor tool for doing a million things once. IOW, it excels at repetitive tasks. Programming it to do a one time task is very inefficient. In such an instance, you're probably better off doing the task manually.
With CAD software, the programming has already been done but there is still a learning curve for the end user and it is quite possible one will spend more effort on the learning curve than they would have if they just did it by hand. That was my experience with the program I tried. That's why I ended up going the pencil and paper route. If I had thought I was going to end up designing dozens of layouts, it probably would have been worthwhile learning the software, but I figured I was planning my last layout so why bother learning to how to use software I would only use one time. I already knew how to use a pencil (and the eraser).
Hello All,
I'm on a Mac and use RailModeler Pro.
For other "drawing" I use Canvas X Draw. I went for the outright purchase over the subscription option.
John-NYBWAn IBM rep said something that stuck with me to this day. A computer is a great tool for doing one thing a million times. It's a poor tool for doing a million things once.
Excellent point!
I too planned my pike with graph paper, a mechanical pencil, and a BIG eraser.
RailModeler Pro was used to document the final layout and the power blocks.
The program does have layers and the ability to represent various objects like structures and scenery.
It is not a steep learning curve but it did take some time to get comfortable with it.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
John-NYBW I spent most of my working life as a mainframe programmer. An IBM rep said something that stuck with me to this day. A computer is a great tool for doing one thing a million times. It's a poor tool for doing a million things once. IOW, it excels at repetitive tasks. Programming it to do a one time task is very inefficient. In such an instance, you're probably better off doing the task manually.
Great point! Being fairly tech savvy and growing up working with software I made the wrong assumption that I could easily learn to use a CAD program to design my layout. Learned the hard way and feel stupid shelling out $$$ for CAD software. Never again; strictly paper and pencil now.
I swear by the freeeware Atlas tool. While not perfect, it doesn't have too large a learning curve. I too was about reading to go old school but had nightmares of shop class. Shocking to know that my worst subject was math, yet designed a functioning layout. Gotta love divine intervention and asking a ton of help!
The largest issue I had was going from the software design program to an actual layout. What I found works is making graphs on the foam with a sharpie and drawing the track to correspond to the grids. The layout was very close to the design. I learned with the 2nd (current one) not to deviate from what I designed on paper.
You say that the trackwork is already completed and that you simply now need a scale drawing of the layout so areas for scenery and structures can be marked out and assigned for development.
Take photos of each section of the layout and have those photos enlarged to scale at a print shop like Kinko's. Then draw your desired scenery and structures on those enlarged photos.
Rich
Alton Junction
John-NYBW A computer is a great tool for doing one thing a million times. It's a poor tool for doing a million things once. IOW, it excels at repetitive tasks. Programming it to do a one time task is very inefficient. In such an instance, you're probably better off doing the task manually.
A computer is a great tool for doing one thing a million times. It's a poor tool for doing a million things once. IOW, it excels at repetitive tasks. Programming it to do a one time task is very inefficient. In such an instance, you're probably better off doing the task manually.
I agree with the above but my experience is the CAD version of my layout is invaluable. True the initial design can be done on paper but, for me, there's not enough pencil lead and erasers to handle all the changes and updates along the way. There are many tweaks before a "final as designed" version is drawn and then there is the "as built" revision after design meets plywood. "What ifs" are a breeze with the computer. In addition you will want to keep the layout accurately documented as mods and scenery are added. This is really laborious with paper and pencil. I also find that the program is more accurate than I can cut and build the layout. If something doesn't fit when I start physical build it usually means I have made a mistake. It's far easier and cheaper to make changes in digital space than with wood and track afterwards.
My preference is CadRail but 3rd Planit also gets good reviews. CadRail is a bit cheaper and is a full function CAD program. I use it for all sorts of drawing tasks. 3rd Planit may also fill this bill but I have no experience with it.
I was thinking something along the lines of what Rich was saying but not quite. Take photos straight down of sections of the layout and then stitch them all together with a photo program and then use a drawing program to draw in the things to be added. There is not much to learn to be able to do that and the programs to do so are likely already on your computer.
You could then have it all on a tablet to refer to at the club or print it off in sections or as a whole.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
CharlieM John-NYBW A computer is a great tool for doing one thing a million times. It's a poor tool for doing a million things once. IOW, it excels at repetitive tasks. Programming it to do a one time task is very inefficient. In such an instance, you're probably better off doing the task manually. I agree with the above but my experience is the CAD version of my layout is invaluable. True the initial design can be done on paper but, for me, there's not enough pencil lead and erasers to handle all the changes and updates along the way. There are many tweaks before a "final as designed" version is drawn and then there is the "as built" revision after design meets plywood. "What ifs" are a breeze with the computer. In addition you will want to keep the layout accurately documented as mods and scenery are added. This is really laborious with paper and pencil. I also find that the program is more accurate than I can cut and build the layout. If something doesn't fit when I start physical build it usually means I have made a mistake. It's far easier and cheaper to make changes in digital space than with wood and track afterwards.
I'm not trying to knock the track planning software. I'm just trying to point out there are pros and cons with both methods. In my case, once I was satisfied with the initial design and started building, I had no reason to go back and make revisions to it. If I found something didn't quite fit or I had a better idea, I saw no point to going back and fixing the plan. I just did what needed to be done on the layout. Somewhere, I might have that original plan buried away but I've had no reason to refer back to it 20+ years later.
PS. Then there is the George Selios approach. I think it was in the first Allen Keller video on the F&SM that he said he never used a plan. He just figured out on the fly where the track should go and would lay it there.
Hi Dan,
I am a real fan of 3rd PlanIt. I used it to design a 20' x 25' plan for my old train club as well as a couple of plans for myself.
One feature of 3rd PlanIt is that it allows you to print your plan at whatever ratio you want. I printed my current track plan at 1:1 and then glued it directly to the top of my layout. You could print the plan at whatever ratio would be easy for you to work with (1:1 would be rather unwieldy to hang on a wall), and you can make multiple copies on any standard printer so several people could have their own copies to work with. Taping the individual printed sheets together is easy.
In your case you already have a track plan so you will not use a lot of the design features. What you will be able to do is plot the existing track pattern into 3rd PlanIt using X-Y axis measurements. You would start in the lower left corner of your layout where X=0", Y=0" and then use a grid (maybe 12" squares) to measure where the track crosses a grid line. You would also plot the through track ends for each turnout. That will give you a series of points and all you have to do is 'connect the dots' using the various joining tools in the program.
I would be more than happy to help you through the process.
https://www.eldoradosoft.com
Cheers!!
Dave
P.S.
One critical point regarding using a home printer to make a 1:1 copy of the layout (regardless of the track planning software brand) is that you have to make sure that the printer is actually printing at full size. Quite often, printers will undersize the actual print so that, for example, the copy of an item that is 12" long may be printed at 11 1/2" long. To check your printer for accuracy, make a copy of a ruler and check the copy against the actual ruler to make sure they are the same size.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
John-NYBWPS. Then there is the George Selios approach. I think it was in the first Allen Keller video on the F&SM that he said he never used a plan. He just figured out on the fly where the track should go and would lay it there.
That was pretty much similar to my trackplanning...I didn't see any need for a drawing, as I had it all in my head, and it seemed to unfold just as I had envisioned that it would.
Wayne
BATMAN I was thinking something along the lines of what Rich was saying but not quite. Take photos straight down of sections of the layout and then stitch them all together with a photo program and then use a drawing program to draw in the things to be added. There is not much to learn to be able to do that and the programs to do so are likely already on your computer. You could then have it all on a tablet to refer to at the club or print it off in sections or as a whole.
doctorwayne John-NYBW PS. Then there is the George Selios approach. I think it was in the first Allen Keller video on the F&SM that he said he never used a plan. He just figured out on the fly where the track should go and would lay it there. That was pretty much similar to my trackplanning...I didn't see any need for a drawing, as I had it all in my head, and it seemed to unfold just as I had envisioned that it would. Wayne
John-NYBW PS. Then there is the George Selios approach. I think it was in the first Allen Keller video on the F&SM that he said he never used a plan. He just figured out on the fly where the track should go and would lay it there.
That's my preferred method as well. Of course, my plans are relatively simple.
I do end up taking some time to lay and re-lay important parts like curve exit points and turnout combinations to get the angles correct, but I figure I'd be fiddling around with that anyway as I try to convert a digital plan to the benchwork....measuring and remeasuring, or repositioning printed templates.
- Douglas
Thanks for the replies everyone. Sharing them with some of the guys in the club and will decide what direction we may go.
Dan, If your club has any thoughts of using JMRI for train control at some point I would suggest drawing the layout in AnyRail as has a small learning curve and an easily imported into the PanelPro portion of JMRI. As far as getting the scale drawing out of any planning software it is simply a matter of having it printed 1:1 rather than 1:87.
Good luck
I have used and will continue to use 3rdPlanit to design my layouts. Is there a significant CAD learning curve? Absolutely. But the software provided me the ability to design a complex 3 level mushroom layout and it allowed me to visualize (and run trains) in 3D which allowed me to refine the design before any benchwork was built.
Another advantage of CAD software is that it doesn't allow you to "cheat" with respect to what track/turnouts will fit/work in a given area. With pen/paper it's very easy to design something that doesn't actually fit/work in the real world.
I'm starting to work on the next layout design and it will certainly be done in 3rdPlanit.
Is CAD track planning software for everyone? No. Is it a very valuable tool for people who embrace computer technology? Yes.
http://www.onewolf.org/Album/LayoutConstruction/index.html
Yeah, all the CAD systems have a learning curve - some of them huge. There are some similarities, but by and large, they are all vastly different. Now that I'm retired, the last thing I wanted to do was CAD work. These days, I hate it. But manual drafting? Oh ... My ... God. Pounce, triangles, (or a drafting machine that never stayed straight?), erasing shields and power erasers? NEVER again.
The analogy with computer programming is not valid. The analogy is writing a computer program with punch cards vs. writing a program with a computerized graphical programming interface.
It's not repetition, it's all about changes. Try correcting a grammatical error with hundreds of lines of codes on punch cards that you have to punch, shuffle and order, then physically load and compile (with errors), vs. writing the program on a PC, running it immediately, then correcting and trying again - almost instantaneously. There is no comparison.
With CAD layout planning software, there are extensive libraries with mfr track and turnouts, allowing you to design the layout and benchwork with multiple measurements, then you cut the wood once. And beware - not all the mfrs make the same track fittings you want and not all of them match up the same. Turnout lengths are different, turnout angles are hugely different for the same # turnout and crossings are different. Making these mistakes on paper or worse - on wood - is a huge PITA.
You pay the price for the learning curve up front or you pay it in wasted wood, track, or worse, later on. Paying a professional layout designer is really the only easier route than CAD, but it costs $$$.
Hi there. I've been using the Atlas software (free version) for a few years. It's fairly easy to figure out, but simplicity also means that it has limitations. For instance, I don't think you can add buildings to the plan. Of course, you could always take a screen shot of the plan and add buildings using another software package, or print and draw them by hand, but that kinda defeats the purpose.
For our club, I find that having printouts of the plan is useful - we used them to identify the names of sections, sectors, towns and industries for operations. Eventually, I would like to do an "electrical" plan of the layout using a printout.
Simon
UPinIdaho Dan, If your club has any thoughts of using JMRI for train control at some point I would suggest drawing the layout in AnyRail as has a small learning curve and an easily imported into the PanelPro portion of JMRI. As far as getting the scale drawing out of any planning software it is simply a matter of having it printed 1:1 rather than 1:87. Good luck
A member has a friend who has used Anyrail and the guy said he would help show the person in the club who decides to take this on how to use it. Hopefully that will do the job.
Thanks again to all of you who responded with suggestions - they were all greatly appreciated!
reasearchhoundA member has a friend who has used Anyrail and the guy said he would help show the person in the club who decides to take this on how to use it. Hopefully that will do the job. Thanks again to all of you who responded with suggestions - they were all greatly appreciated!
It's a little late, but I'll mention XTrackCAD. It runs on Windows, Linux, and MacOS, but requires X11. (I use XQuartz on my Mac Mini.) It's available at https://sourceforge.net/projects/xtrkcad-fork/
Anyone care to share their experience with AnyRail? How does it compare with CADrail which I know is a full CAD program.
Any tips for getting into CADRail? I tried it years ago but didn't have the patience to learn it. Maybe because I wasn't prepared to build a layout at the time but now I am.
reasearchhoundWe are now in need of a scale drawing of the final layout so areas for scenery and structures can be marked out and assigned for development. What we are hoping to find is a program which would allow us to do such a drawing. We could then get it enlarged and the post it in a wall for members to view.
The previous poster, CharlieM, suggested staying away from 3D drawings, but I think that the capacity to draw things in 3D would suit your purposes perfectly. You will be able to see exactly what your hills and mountains, tunnel portals, valleys etc. will look like. With 3rd PlanIt you can even draw your structures in 3D and place them at the proper elevations.
Here is one of the 3D drawings that I created with 3rd PlanIt:
Thanks Dave. Another member has taken on the job using AnyRail. He seems to be making pretty good progress.