If you've been following my layout build follies, you know I've had a few problems this year with a roundhouse reverting suddenly to kit form, plaster scenery work failures, and other smaller "learning moments" as I've been going.
Another one has popped up today!
The past few months I've spent many hours ballasting Casper Yard. I'm probably over 3/4 of the way done and it's all gone pretty well - until today.
See the following photo. A bit earlier today I ballasted a turnout (the one in the upper left with the screwdriver next to it) that leads to Natrona Lunber to the left and the Standard Oil Company refinery tank car loading racks straight ahead. It's all the same process I used to good effect in the rest of the yard, so I had no reason to expect a problem. The turnout is ballasted, wetted with alcohol and the ballast glued with diluted white glue.
I'm undergoing day surgery tomorrow morning (nothing major wrong), so I'm a bit restless this evening. I wandered back down to the train room, thinking I might do a bit more ballasting, or maybe clean up the room a bit (hard to believe that one, isn't it?), and I'm sure glad I did!
When I walked over to check out how that ballasted turnout was looking, I found this mess:
Holy cow! The yellow glue holding the cork down let loose and the cork wrinkled up underneath the turnout, bowing the turnout upwards in the process! Yikes!!
This has not happened anywhere else in the yard. As you can see, the ballasted turnout is near the edge of the cork right here. While track is caulked to the cork, turnouts are left floating. And this one sure floated!
I looked around for a way to flatten everything out, in the hopes that the cork will dry and not force me to pull the turnout and cut out the wavy cork and replace it all.
This is what I came up with:
I added full strength yellow glue under the edge of the wrinkled cork using a popsicle stick, then laid a 4' machined aluminum level along the track and weighted it with unspent soda cans. That seems to have flattened out things under the turnout. I also used the heavy steel ruler from my 16" combination square, along with the head of the square and a pair of medium/large dikes for weight, to flatten the loose wavy edge of the cork.
This will all stay in place for 24-36 hours to allow everything to dry thoroughly. Then we'll see what we shall see. With a bit of good luck, this will be "disaster averted."
So step right up and place your bets, folks! Whadda ya think? Will I have to rebuild that area, or will my attempt at repair prove successful?
Personally, I'm thinking it's a toss-up. What about you?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Hi Mark,
That's a pretty scary picture! I hope the damage is contained to just that one spot.
I can think of a number of possible causes:
- Too much alcohol (which would dissolve the glue and possibly affect the cork),
- Not enough yellow glue,
- Perhaps the glue had partially dried before the cork was laid,
- Defective cork
As an experiment, you could take a piece of cork and spray it with alcohol to see what happens.
Only time will tell if your solution works. I hope it does.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Mark, this gives me the willies. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. I haven't even started thinking about ballast yet, but I would never have expected something like this to happen. Yikes! But my prediction is your fix will work. And remember "Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end."
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
PruittPersonally, I'm thinking it's a toss-up. What about you?
I'm wondering when the cork was glued in place...did it have time to create a bond before you did the ballasting? Most yellow glue is resistant to water, but I wonder if the alcohol played a part in the delamination.Most of my cork roadbed was put down with yellow glue or contact cement, and a lot of it was literally drenched with "wet water" during ballasting, due to the depth of the ballast and the underlying rip-rap (crushed Durabond plaster left-over from castings) alongside areas where the landforms sloped away from the track. Drying times for those areas took several days, but none of it ever lifted like that, and I've never seen cork absorb water...it literally floats like a cork if it's not secured in-place.
I'd like to see your repair be successful, but my guess is that you'll need a redo, as similar work on that nearest track could repeat that episode.
Wayne
Alas, this was just waiting for an excuse to happen, Mark. And as Wayne opines, it is about 85% likely to happen again, maybe not quite as drastic or extensive. Too much wetting on too little original glue, maybe an iffy batch of glue, cork that is more porous than the stuff around it...who knows. This spot has an issue.
To me, the problem is part adhesive and part too much cork. I think I would have lifted the turnout because I would have assumed I'd have to tidy up the surroundings anyway (so what's another two minutes of ballast refinishing?) and cut a thin slice of cork, maybe a couple about six inches or eight inches apart to relieve any pressure. Those waffles or waves tell me there might be about 1/8" too much cork for that area.
It's just a SWAG on my part. At the very least I would have used a thin spatula or butterknife to spread more glue under those wavy edges.
If it helps you to feel like you're in good company, this happened to me in my yard last summer. I had laid all the dirt and glued it around early December of '19 so that the grandsons, who were to visit near spring break, would enjoy a finished layout. COVID changed that. Then in late May, I walked in to find one turnout lifted like it was an arch bridge. I had to remove it, trim 1/16" off the rails abutting the points end rails, re-insert it, and then fix and reglue the ballast and dirt. It was a pain, but fixable over maybe 20 minutes. Hasn't happened again. Oh yeah, I also remembered to turn off the dehumidifier once I checked the gauge and found the normal 45% to have dropped to 25%. Hence, the buckle.
Pruitt A bit earlier today I ballasted a turnout (the one in the upper left with the screwdriver next to it) that leads to Natrona Lunber to the left and the Standard Oil Company refinery tank car loading racks straight ahead. It's all the same process I used to good effect in the rest of the yard, so I had no reason to expect a problem. The turnout is ballasted, wetted with alcohol and the ballast glued with diluted white glue. The yellow glue holding the cork down let loose and the cork wrinkled up underneath the turnout, bowing the turnout upwards in the process! Yikes!! This has not happened anywhere else in the yard. As you can see, the ballasted turnout is near the edge of the cork right here. While track is caulked to the cork, turnouts are left floating. And this one sure floated! I looked around for a way to flatten everything out, in the hopes that the cork will dry and not force me to pull the turnout and cut out the wavy cork and replace it all. I added full strength yellow glue under the edge of the wrinkled cork using a popsicle stick, then laid a 4' machined aluminum level along the track and weighted it with unspent soda cans. That seems to have flattened out things under the turnout. I also used the heavy steel ruler from my 16" combination square, along with the head of the square and a pair of medium/large dikes for weight, to flatten the loose wavy edge of the cork. This will all stay in place for 24-36 hours to allow everything to dry thoroughly. Then we'll see what we shall see. With a bit of good luck, this will be "disaster averted." So step right up and place your bets, folks! Whadda ya think? Will I have to rebuild that area, or will my attempt at repair prove successful? Personally, I'm thinking it's a toss-up. What about you?
A bit earlier today I ballasted a turnout (the one in the upper left with the screwdriver next to it) that leads to Natrona Lunber to the left and the Standard Oil Company refinery tank car loading racks straight ahead. It's all the same process I used to good effect in the rest of the yard, so I had no reason to expect a problem. The turnout is ballasted, wetted with alcohol and the ballast glued with diluted white glue.
The yellow glue holding the cork down let loose and the cork wrinkled up underneath the turnout, bowing the turnout upwards in the process! Yikes!!
It's all part of the layout building process.
Rich
Alton Junction
I'm reasonably confident that if you added more glue and straightened the whole thing out again with weight when wet, it should dry flat again. Most of the time you can rewet and redry roadbed and track and it turns out fine.
- Douglas
The ripples in the cork in the one picture tell me that the cork expanded when it was wet. Swelled.
So I think there's something IN the "cork" that absorbed the water. And swelled.
I think it likely that when the water dries out, it will contract. In a few days, you'll find out.
I think Rich's comment is the most useful and realistic.
And I also think there was something wrong with the "cork". There's a reason that word is in quotes. And I'd be wary of using that brand again.
Like Wayne, I've drenched my little bit of cork roadbed, and it just sat there.
Ed
Great photos and explanation of what happened. That is terrible to read/see. What type of glue did you use? I'd rebuild the area b/c you don't want future derailments or other issues.
That's really unfortunate. Re-doing things is never fun. I nailed all my cork, so hopefully I won't have that problem when I ballast (next few weeks actually). I like mechanical bonds, and hate chemical bonds.
Simon
I used Elmers glue and a putty knife on sheet cork, but I did not get 100% coverage. The base was foam. Perhaps I should have sprayed water or alcohol on the glue to get complete coverage, but I did not. I was worried about:
Problem 1 the glue bleeds through sheet cork in places. Wax paper underneath the paint cans and boards solved that.
Problem 2 There were areas of cork that were not glued and felt like bubbles. As a doctor, I had access to syringes so I mixed up diluted white glue and injected the bubbles and weighted them. Whatever the date is on my avatar is how long they have remained glued and trouble free.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
7j43k The ripples in the cork in the one picture tell me that the cork expanded when it was wet. Swelled. So I think there's something IN the "cork" that absorbed the water. And swelled.
richhotrainSwelling is the appropriate word for cork sheet. If moisture gathers under the cork sheet, swelling can and will occur. Don't ask me how I know.
If moisture gathers under the cork sheet, swelling can and will occur.
As with Rich, I also request that you don't ask me how I know.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
I just did a quick search online for "cork swelling". Some people say it does. Others say it doesn't. Yikes.
Since this swelling of cork roadbed so far SEEMS to only happen on occasion to the lucky winners, I wonder if there is a difference in the qualities of the cork. And how much of the cork is Cork. And whether or not OUR cork should or shouldn't have some sort of (waterproofing?) treatment.
I dunno.
I'm still voting for the shrinking going down over a few days, and all being OK.
I hope.
7j43kI'm still voting for the shrinking going down over a few days, and all being OK.
Since I'm still fairly new at this, my answer probably means very little.
When the cork sheet swelled (or whatever it did), it did not go back to being flat even after it dried. I eventually used a knife and putty knife and cut out the sections of cork that caused the problem. It was not fun, it made a mess, and I had to redo a lot of ballast, scenery, and several pieces of track.
I'm sorry that I clicked on this thread. It has brought back some bad memories that I had put out of mind.
York1 7j43k I'm still voting for the shrinking going down over a few days, and all being OK. Since I'm still fairly new at this, my answer probably means very little. When the cork sheet swelled (or whatever it did), it did not go back to being flat even after it dried. I eventually used a knife and putty knife and cut out the sections of cork that caused the problem. It was not fun, it made a mess, and I had to redo a lot of ballast, scenery, and several pieces of track. I'm sorry that I clicked on this thread. It has brought back some bad memories that I had put out of mind.
7j43k I'm still voting for the shrinking going down over a few days, and all being OK.
Being new at this doesn't lessen what you've experienced. YOU have had the problem, and can report on it. I have not.
What happened to you might also happen to Mark. It's looking more likely now. But I still hope not.
Thanks for reporting your experience in the matter.
A slight complication kept me in the hospital overnight, so I haven't been able to check the repair yet.
Some really good comments here - thanks! I'll post the results when I have a chance to check things out. Probably later today.
PruittA slight complication kept me in the hospital overnight
I hope all is well. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
The sheet cork is not the same stuff as track cork even though they both have cork in them. Cork bulletin boards warp all the time when made wet, roadbed dose not. Different fillers and proubly glue.
PruittA slight complication kept me in the hospital overnight, so I haven't been able to check the repair yet.
Mark, I hope you are doing OK, and that it is nothing serious.
quote user="hon30critter"]- Too much alcohol
Dave[/quote]In me, or on the track?
doctorwayneI'm wondering when the cork was glued in place...did it have time to create a bond before you did the ballasting? Most yellow glue is resistant to water, but I wonder if the alcohol played a part in the delamination. Most of my cork roadbed was put down with yellow glue or contact cement, and a lot of it was literally drenched with "wet water" during ballasting, due to the depth of the ballast and the underlying rip-rap (crushed Durabond plaster left-over from castings) alongside areas where the landforms sloped away from the track. Drying times for those areas took several days, but none of it ever lifted like that, and I've never seen cork absorb water...it literally floats like a cork if it's not secured in-place. Wayne
Most of my cork roadbed was put down with yellow glue or contact cement, and a lot of it was literally drenched with "wet water" during ballasting, due to the depth of the ballast and the underlying rip-rap (crushed Durabond plaster left-over from castings) alongside areas where the landforms sloped away from the track. Drying times for those areas took several days, but none of it ever lifted like that, and I've never seen cork absorb water...it literally floats like a cork if it's not secured in-place.
selectorAlas, this was just waiting for an excuse to happen, Mark. ...it is about 85% likely to happen again, maybe not quite as drastic or extensive.
kasskabooseGreat photos and explanation of what happened. That is terrible to read/see. What type of glue did you use? I'd rebuild the area b/c you don't want future derailments or other issues.
York1Since I'm still fairly new at this, my answer probably means very little. When the cork sheet swelled (or whatever it did), it did not go back to being flat even after it dried. I eventually used a knife and putty knife and cut out the sections of cork that caused the problem. It was not fun, it made a mess, and I had to redo a lot of ballast, scenery, and several pieces of track. I'm sorry that I clicked on this thread. It has brought back some bad memories that I had put out of mind.
Sorry about dredging up bad memories. Look at it this way - you'll have stories to tell when you're in the old modelers' home.
rrebellThe sheet cork is not the same stuff as track cork even though they both have cork in them. Cork bulletin boards warp all the time when made wet, roadbed dose not. Different fillers and proubly glue.
In any case, I bought a big roll of the cork, and I think I've learned enough now to be a bit more careful when working with it. Or not; we'll know soon enough!
And now, the climax of the story -
SUCCESS!
The repair apparently worked. I got home this morning, and half an hour ago went down and removed all the stuff off the track and cork. It looks like nothing ever happened!
I put a few tank cars on the track and rolled them back and forth to see how the turnout worked:
Except for some rough spots where I haven't yet cleaned the track and ballast, the cars ran through fine. I also ran them through the diverging route as well. All seems well. I'll watch closely for a few days to see if it starts lifting agian, but it seems thoroughly dry.
Where track continues near the edge past this point, I'll be a bit more careful and maybe ballast between the rails, then do outside the rails separately (on another day). That should help keep the moisture down across the width of the track.
Thanks also for the well wishes. Short version - I had a roughe parathyroid gland pumping out too much hormone, so elevating my calcium levels. Over time this can rob the bones of calcium and weaken them, so it had to come out. Day surgery, except mine was apparently buried within the thyroid rather than just behind it, so they had to remove half the thyroid as well. So I spent the night in the hospital so they could check all those hormone levels this morning. All is well.
I should have delayed this until late October though - I would have given the kiddies a real treat come Halloween (note the throat)![Mods - please delete if too far over the line]
You are a real cutup Mark! It will be good when you get this little slice of life behind you.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMANYou are a real cutup Mark! It will be good when you get this little slice of life behind you.
Well, I'm glad to see that I was wrong about your repair work, and happy to see that you came through your slice and dice episode, too....Did they sew you up, or use diluted yellow glue?
Glad to hear that you're doing OK!
doctorwayneDid they sew you up, or use diluted yellow glue? Wayne
Now that's funny!
doctorwayne Well, I'm glad to see that I was wrong about your repair work, and happy to see that you came through your slice and dice episode, too....Did they sew you up, or use diluted yellow glue? Wayne
Oh, the humanity!!!
You guys have got me in stitches!!! ROFL
doctorwayneDid they sew you up, or use diluted yellow glue?
Yellow glue????? Does this mean trouble when Raquel comes along to give you your sponge bath?
Time to put a cork in thi....wait...never mind.
I'm glad to see that you are home again and doing well! I'm also glad that your repair seems to have worked.
Without wishing to rub salt in your recent wound, I would suggest that using diluted glue might have been a false economy. Is the risk worth the savings?