Wow! I hadn't expected so many comments guys. Thanks for your inputs. I should have chosen my words more carefully.... when I said "shiny" I should instead have said "Glossy". Specifically, the "Union Station... Travel by Train" billboard. The front surface of mine is glossy and detracts from the "realism" we all aspire to. But I had NOT considered the "invisibility" factor of the see-through portions of the sign around the billboard framework. Thanks to gmpullman for making me mindful of that, and for the trial tests.
SeeYou190 RR_Mel I’m rather proud of myself, I diddled around with that little power supply for about 20 minutes and didn’t get zapped. Shaky Mel is doing better. Happy to hear that you are doing better Mel! And I am very glad that you did not get zapped. -Kevin
RR_Mel I’m rather proud of myself, I diddled around with that little power supply for about 20 minutes and didn’t get zapped. Shaky Mel is doing better.
Happy to hear that you are doing better Mel!
And I am very glad that you did not get zapped.
-Kevin
Alton Junction
RR_MelI’m rather proud of myself, I diddled around with that little power supply for about 20 minutes and didn’t get zapped. Shaky Mel is doing better.
Living the dream.
richhotrainApparently, you wouldn't.
But I did:
Miller_Sparks_matte by Edmund, on Flickr
This one works just fine after two coats of DullCote.
I'm going to conclude that spraying the face of a Miller sign with matte finish does no harm.
2¢
Cheers, Ed
Surprising! The little bugger is 90 volts at 50kh with a pretty good looking square wave for a cheapie device. Two caps on board, the large one is 220μf at 16 VDC, the smaller one is 10μf at 25 VDCIt draws 82ma at 4.5 VDC.
The caps really stop any ripple on the 4.5 volt input, zip at the lowest my scope will go with 0 attenuation on the probe.
EDIT:I’m rather proud of myself, I diddled around with that little power supply for about 20 minutes and didn’t get zapped. Shaky Mel is doing better.
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
rrinkerAnimated signs modern?
Old neon signs are certainly nostalgic:
I don't recall seeing the puffing Camel sign when I was at Times Square but the Chock-Full-O-Nuts sign had a steaming coffee cup. Perfect for those white smoke units pulled out of Broadway locomotives.
When I was a kid I admired the animated sign at the Tip-Top bakery. It had a loaf of bread and a motorized "wheel" that slices of bread would flip out of the bag and on to a plate.
Also there was a huge, neon sign for Burdett Oxygen showing a welder with a cutting torch and the neon "sparks" would fly all over. A real, colorful gem on the east-side of Cleveland. I never found any photos of it
Come to think of it, I DO have another working Miller sign I can shoot with DullCote. It's an I.C. Sparks Welding Supply sign I just remembered. I'll give it a try later.
Regards, Ed
EdI’ll take a look at one of my Miller power supplies with a scope and see what the 90 volts looks like, maybe you could attempt to light up your sign. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
gmpullman RR_Mel Does the sign still work after the paint? It didn't work before the paint! That's why I was willing to sacrifice it.
RR_Mel Does the sign still work after the paint?
It didn't work before the paint!
That's why I was willing to sacrifice it.
Well that answers that question. I was wondering why you would be so willing to sacrifice a perfectly good sign. Apparently, you wouldn't.
Rich
RR_MelDoes the sign still work after the paint?
That's why I was willing to sacrifice it. Still, I see no reason why it wouldn't. There's no way for the finish to soak through the face of the sign.
I should see if Miller would be willing to repair it. There's a capacitor on the board that gets hot when I power it up. However — This particular sign is probably fifteen years old and a new sign is $15 plus shipping.
EdDoes the sign still work after the paint? Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Very, very interesting, Ed. Now, let's see what the OP has to say about that technique. It sure seems promising.
Here's the results of my in-depth investigation:
Miller sign before:
Miller_GE_gloss by Edmund, on Flickr
Miller sign after:
Miller_GE_matte by Edmund, on Flickr
Methodology:
The front of the sign seems to be plain acetate with the electronics applied from the back and laminated with a simple adhesive layer of what seems to be plain packing tape or similar clear substrate.
I washed off both faces of the sign, being careful to keep the solder pads and wire connection dry, using plain isopropyl alcohol.
The first application of Testors DullCote went on very smoothly but I decided that the gloss had not been reduced as much as I'd expected. Twenty minutes later I gave a second coat of DullCote and I immediately noticed orange-peel on the surface. I've had this happen before with DullCote for some reason.
After roughly a half-hour I decided to try a layer of Rustoleum "Dead Flat" spray over top of the DullCote. This dried to a nice, even finish and this is what you see in the photo.
Now, keep in mind some of the Miller signs are designed so the clear area is supposed to be "invisible" so any application of a matte finish is going to negate this effect.
If I were to DullCote my Union Station sign the see-through effect would be destroyed:
IMG_6325_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
OvermodHey, Ed, I hear opportunity knocking! I'd bet just sticking a pin carefully into the panel would pick up that segment -- then drive it off a separate supply. — and hook it up so the 'broken' segment flickers pseudorandomly like an old neon display going bad... might be evocative of a whole certain era...
Miller already has that option and it is very effective. The Union Station sign in particular has about fifty "steps" each one selecting a different sequence or effect for the sign driver.
As for my bad segment, if I press very hard on one spot of the membrane I can get it to light so there is an internal "open" in there. Trick would be to inject some kind of contact enhancement between the layers, OR do what I did and buy a new sign for forty bucks. I'll use the defective one on the back of the building
richhotrainI was thinking along those same lines, but there are so many irregularly shaped signs that it might be a lot of work to do, and I wonder if the adhesive would damage the surface of the sign.
Another possibility is intentional damage to the glossy surface -- very slight damage producing the frosted surface, that is. I don't know if 'sanding liquid' is still legally sold or reasonably available, but a product that would just 'craze' the surface of shiny plastic and then evaporate when you wiped it on in a thin layer would neatly fill the bill; it might even serve for signs that are already installed on structures, better than trying to use a paint or brushed/sprayed coating on them there...
Overmod In my opinion, the easiest way to deal with a sign like a Miller is just to cut a piece of lightly 'frosted' adhesive clear plastic sheet to get a nonglare surface. In theory you could use non-glare glass like that made for photo frames, or another framing "solution" to reduce the shine.
In my opinion, the easiest way to deal with a sign like a Miller is just to cut a piece of lightly 'frosted' adhesive clear plastic sheet to get a nonglare surface. In theory you could use non-glare glass like that made for photo frames, or another framing "solution" to reduce the shine.
gmpullman One thing I CAN attest to is the 90 volts of high frequency current. Don't grab the PC board while energized. Glad I don't have a pacemaker!
One thing I CAN attest to is the 90 volts of high frequency current. Don't grab the PC board while energized. Glad I don't have a pacemaker!
90 volts???
Yikes.
Animated signs modern? Check this thing out, from 1910! It's just a shame there is no motion picture film of it working. Explained why in the video. Still a shame. All run by basically a giant drum of switches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0KZXsZWP0E
Like I said, I don't have any of the Miller signs yet, but if they are faced with a sheet of acetate, then it should already be not too shiny, and Dulcote shouldn't hurt it if it needs to be dulled down even more. Yes, my concern was the solvent in the paint possibly dissolving the EL material if it was directly exposed - like how many plastics are damaged by solvent paints if not first primed.
I used to have those EL night lights all over. A lot more recently than 30 years ago. Now they just make them with LEDs. Timex Indiglo clocks also use EL - I stil have and use my battery powered one, and it too has a cheap coil in it, when I hit the button to light up the screen, the whine is clearly audible even as old as I am, a high pitched whine, that trails off since the lighting circuit seems to basically charge up a capacitor which poweres the backlight for a few seconds after you let go of the button. I'd build a nixie tube clock for bedside, but I don;t want to try smashing the snooze button on something like that, or fry the cat if she walks across it. I've probably had this thing for 30 years, one AA lasts a couple of years. Only problem is it runs fast - but that's better than it running slow. So I get up a little earlier than expected...
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have a 12 VDC post supply driving my structure illumination bus on my layout. I measure the current when I get a Miller sign and drive the sign's electronics board from the bus using a dropping resistor to avoid batteries and having more on-off switches to throw.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
RR_MelI think Randy’s concern is if the chemical properties of the paint will effect the EL material.
My guess for whether spraying a coating would ruin one of these signs would be no, in nearly any case.
If you have a flat-faced panel with EL segments embedded, the face material is what would be coated.
If you have 'beads' of EL material exposed, it is unlikely that short-term exposure to at least water-based vehicle would cause 'loss of glow' combined with opacity. The coating certainly won't permeate very far...
In fact, I'd suspect the actual EL material in these signs may already have been coated (for environmental tolerance, resistance to scratching, etc.) and so applying a dulling coat would be no different than on other shiny clear coatings...
All we need is a small amount of silica fume or similar transparent 'microsphere' sort of material, in a suitable clear material. If Dullcote itself is too thick or 'white' when dried, I'd bet it wouldn't take long to figure out a formula that would be right.
I think Randy’s concern is if the chemical properties of the paint will effect the EL material.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
gmpullmanMy Union Station sign has a bad contact on the left-hand segment
Hmmm ... has anyone tried square-wave PWM (at 90-volt amplitude) on these things? Reducing the on-time duty cycle ought to reduce the apparent brightness and at something like 20K frequency the persistence of vision ought to keep flicker down for a considerable range ...
Mine are shiny on the surface but most are located "deep" enough in the scene not to be noticeable.
Miller_zippo by Edmund, on Flickr
Miller_11-2-pc by Edmund, on Flickr
I bought some LED string lights that came with a 4.5V wall wart. These drive six of my signs without any trouble. I did buy the Miller 12 > 4.5 V reducer but haven't found a need to wire it in just yet.
I have an older non-working sign that I can give a shot of DullCote to later and see how it works. It will reduce some of the sharpness of the image, of course. Kind of like trying to see out a fogged window. The front of the sign seems to be plain acetate so I don't think the DullCote will affect it.
Miller_11-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
My Union Station sign has a bad contact on the left-hand segment
Good Luck, Ed
Yea, the brightness seems fixed and doesn’t change under primary voltage, they are either on or off. The current only varies a few ma for the different modes. I have quite a few Miller signs running of a 12 volt powered Buck converter set to 4.5 volts, incidentally none of my Miller signs draw 95ma, six signs draw a total of .426ma at 4.5 volts. The Buck converters are great little devices, super compact, great voltage and current regulation and best of all no heat! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
EL is one of those cool early-Sixties technologies like Nimo tubes, which requires high voltage to work, admittedly very low-current but not always with effective current limiting if shorted inadvertently by human contact or even proximity
My suspicion is that you do not 'dim' these panels by reducing the voltage: you will get to a certain level and they'll just go out. So you have to keep the voltage reasonably fixed and then vary the current... which requires a different circuit downstream of whatever determines or supports the voltage. Not necessarily difficult or more expensive, just a set of requirements to be accommodated.
I use the cheapo DC to DC Buck Converters for my layout, super efficient switching power supplies. You can get them from 1 amp to 12 amps for under $2 to $5 off eBay.
It would be best to use a voltage regulated source. The signs have selectable sequencing for different modes and I think the 95ma is the max on the Miller signs, the current flexes a bit with the different modes.
In my opinion, the easiest way to deal with a sign like a Miller is just to cut a piece of lightly 'frosted' adhesive clear plastic sheet to get a nonglare surface. In theory you could use non-glare glass like that made for photo frames, or another framing "solution" to reduce the shine. You will only want to apply this over the actual 'image' as otherwise the matte may show the blank or clear part of the sign just as frosted glass would.
In order to reduce intensity of an EL panel you'll need a constant-current power supply that lets you adjust current independent of voltage. But incidentally you don't need fancy electronics to drive the things. Chrysler had some of the most spectacular dashboards ever created, better than pinball machines, that were implemented using what they called "Panelescent" technology (you will occasionally see this spelled very imaginatively in old-car posts, my personal favorite being "paleovescent") and of course these needed early-Sixties, car-manufacturer-cost-effective, electrical means to drive them. You were of course supposed to think there was some space-age optoisolated solid-state module back under the dash that ran this miracle lighting -- the truth was rather less grand, more interesting, and decidedly not high-tech. (Think Model T ignition, for a start...
One of these hooked up to a nominal 12V source with appropriate voltage-dropping resistors ought to drive a Miller panel just fine, and more to the point perhaps it should be possible to re-create one with a few cheap modern parts and scraps of material.
I think his have a shiny surface when off. I seldom turn my Miller signs off but just for kicks I took a look at several of mine a couple of minutes ago and they don’t look shiny to me. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
So, going back to the OP's issue, he is objecting to the fact that his signs are shiny which made me wonder if they are too bright.
If you think back about 30 or 40 years the panel night lights were EL lighting. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.