Hey Guys. I have a number of Miller Engineering signs and billboards on my layout, as many of you may. Have several more I'm contemplating placing, but... they're so SHINY! I'd like to dull the surface finish so tney don't stick out so much, maybe with one or two coats of Dullcote? Has anybody else tried this, does it work, and does it adversely affect the functions of the sign?? If not Dullcote, any other suggestions to kind of "blend in" the signs so they're not so glaringly different from the weathered buildings?
My Miller Engineering signs aren’t shiny. They’re pretty old but I don’t remember them being shiny when I first installed them. Then again when they are on and doing their thing the shine shouldn’t be noticeable.Might drop them a line and ask about Dullcote.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I don't own any Miller Engineering Signs, so I don't know for sure, but can you install a resistor to reduce the current passing through the sign? On the website, it says that all animated signs draw 95 ma.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain I don't own any Miller Engineering Signs, so I don't know for sure, but can you install a resistor to reduce the current passing through the sign? On the website, it says that all animated signs draw 95 ma. Rich
The Miller signs are Electroluminescence and have a high voltage power supply, the Electroluminescence (EL) requires about 90 volts to operate. Putting a resistor in series might ding the power supply. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I don;t have anym, but I don't recallt he ones on the club layout being shiny when not lit. I don't think the material the EL wire is made of will be hurt by Dulcote, but I would test before ruinign a sign. A water-based dulling spray would be better than a solvent based one, less likely to cause any damage to the amterials of the sign.
It would make the sign thicker, so depending on the use, it may or may not matter, but a thin piece of clear styrene, lightly sanded to frost it, overlayed would make the whole think a lot less shiny.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
RR_Mel richhotrain I don't own any Miller Engineering Signs, so I don't know for sure, but can you install a resistor to reduce the current passing through the sign? On the website, it says that all animated signs draw 95 ma. Just curious, how are these signs powered? The website mentions 3 AAA batteries. Rich The Miller signs are Electroluminescence and have a high voltage power supply, the Electroluminescence requires about 90 volts to operate. Putting a resistor in series might ding the power supply.
richhotrain I don't own any Miller Engineering Signs, so I don't know for sure, but can you install a resistor to reduce the current passing through the sign? On the website, it says that all animated signs draw 95 ma. Just curious, how are these signs powered? The website mentions 3 AAA batteries. Rich
Just curious, how are these signs powered? The website mentions 3 AAA batteries.
The Miller signs are Electroluminescence and have a high voltage power supply, the Electroluminescence requires about 90 volts to operate. Putting a resistor in series might ding the power supply.
RR_MelThe Miller signs are Electroluminescence and have a high voltage power supply, the Electroluminescence requires about 90 volts to operate. Putting a resistor in series might ding the power supply.
On the Miller website they say the signs are 4.5 volts.
Is this a change? Were the older signs 90 volts?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190 RR_Mel The Miller signs are Electroluminescence and have a high voltage power supply, the Electroluminescence requires about 90 volts to operate. Putting a resistor in series might ding the power supply. On the Miller website they say the signs are 4.5 volts. Is this a change? Were the older signs 90 volts? -Kevin
RR_Mel The Miller signs are Electroluminescence and have a high voltage power supply, the Electroluminescence requires about 90 volts to operate. Putting a resistor in series might ding the power supply.
Electroluminescence (EL) requires high voltage to operate, the Miller signs come with a power supply that converts the 4.5 volts to high voltage. EL lighting element runs on 90+ volts.
https://hackaday.com/2011/08/25/all-about-electroluminescence/
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
The power supply is 4.5 volts. But that runs a little circuit that is a boost converter. The signs are made with an electroluminescent sheet or wire, depending on the form of the sign, and those things run on high voltage (but low current).
Thicker versions of the EL wire were often used by people to decorate their computer cases before RGB LEDs became so common (and I still laugh every time they come up with somethign new to add RGB lighting to, always sold as "gamer" - yeah, that stuff is the gamer equivalent to the cut spring Hondas with fart can mufflers pretenting they are now "performance" cars. A serious gamer would save the money on that garbage and spend it on the next level up video card).
Back when I was a kid, I had some of those Radio Shack Science Fair kits - they originally had a red plastic perforated base, with a clear cover, all the parts and instructions were packed inside. One I had used a row of neon bulbs that would light in sequence, or at random depending on which of two wiring options you did, power source was I think a (V batter, but neon bulbs need 80-100 volts, so the main part of the circuit was a step up converter. You could get a tingle if you touched the wrong part, but it was very low current and not aprticularly dangerous. I know mine had a cheap transformer, it had very audible coil whine when running.
If you look on the Miller site under the Experimenter's Kits section, you cna see the little power supply that goes between the battery and the EL panel (or between the AC adapter and the EL panel). A clearer view is item #2701 - Inverter. The item on the left, you can see the transformer and two large capacitors (there are more components also) - that's the step up voltage converter to generate the 90V or so required by the EL sheets and wires.
RR_Mel Miller signs come with a power supply that converts the 4.5 volts to high voltage. EL lighting element runs on 90+ volts.
rrinker The power supply is 4.5 volts. But that runs a little circuit that is a boost converter. The signs are made with an electroluminescent sheet or wire, depending on the form of the sign, and those things run on high voltage (but low current).
Thanks for clarifying that detail for me.
I was confused... even a little bit more than normal.
If you think back about 30 or 40 years the panel night lights were EL lighting. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
So, going back to the OP's issue, he is objecting to the fact that his signs are shiny which made me wonder if they are too bright.
I think his have a shiny surface when off. I seldom turn my Miller signs off but just for kicks I took a look at several of mine a couple of minutes ago and they don’t look shiny to me. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
In my opinion, the easiest way to deal with a sign like a Miller is just to cut a piece of lightly 'frosted' adhesive clear plastic sheet to get a nonglare surface. In theory you could use non-glare glass like that made for photo frames, or another framing "solution" to reduce the shine. You will only want to apply this over the actual 'image' as otherwise the matte may show the blank or clear part of the sign just as frosted glass would.
In order to reduce intensity of an EL panel you'll need a constant-current power supply that lets you adjust current independent of voltage. But incidentally you don't need fancy electronics to drive the things. Chrysler had some of the most spectacular dashboards ever created, better than pinball machines, that were implemented using what they called "Panelescent" technology (you will occasionally see this spelled very imaginatively in old-car posts, my personal favorite being "paleovescent") and of course these needed early-Sixties, car-manufacturer-cost-effective, electrical means to drive them. You were of course supposed to think there was some space-age optoisolated solid-state module back under the dash that ran this miracle lighting -- the truth was rather less grand, more interesting, and decidedly not high-tech. (Think Model T ignition, for a start...
One of these hooked up to a nominal 12V source with appropriate voltage-dropping resistors ought to drive a Miller panel just fine, and more to the point perhaps it should be possible to re-create one with a few cheap modern parts and scraps of material.
I use the cheapo DC to DC Buck Converters for my layout, super efficient switching power supplies. You can get them from 1 amp to 12 amps for under $2 to $5 off eBay.
It would be best to use a voltage regulated source. The signs have selectable sequencing for different modes and I think the 95ma is the max on the Miller signs, the current flexes a bit with the different modes.
EL is one of those cool early-Sixties technologies like Nimo tubes, which requires high voltage to work, admittedly very low-current but not always with effective current limiting if shorted inadvertently by human contact or even proximity
My suspicion is that you do not 'dim' these panels by reducing the voltage: you will get to a certain level and they'll just go out. So you have to keep the voltage reasonably fixed and then vary the current... which requires a different circuit downstream of whatever determines or supports the voltage. Not necessarily difficult or more expensive, just a set of requirements to be accommodated.
Yea, the brightness seems fixed and doesn’t change under primary voltage, they are either on or off. The current only varies a few ma for the different modes. I have quite a few Miller signs running of a 12 volt powered Buck converter set to 4.5 volts, incidentally none of my Miller signs draw 95ma, six signs draw a total of .426ma at 4.5 volts. The Buck converters are great little devices, super compact, great voltage and current regulation and best of all no heat! Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Mine are shiny on the surface but most are located "deep" enough in the scene not to be noticeable.
Miller_zippo by Edmund, on Flickr
One thing I CAN attest to is the 90 volts of high frequency current. Don't grab the PC board while energized. Glad I don't have a pacemaker!
Miller_11-2-pc by Edmund, on Flickr
I bought some LED string lights that came with a 4.5V wall wart. These drive six of my signs without any trouble. I did buy the Miller 12 > 4.5 V reducer but haven't found a need to wire it in just yet.
I have an older non-working sign that I can give a shot of DullCote to later and see how it works. It will reduce some of the sharpness of the image, of course. Kind of like trying to see out a fogged window. The front of the sign seems to be plain acetate so I don't think the DullCote will affect it.
Miller_11-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
My Union Station sign has a bad contact on the left-hand segment
Good Luck, Ed
Hmmm ... has anyone tried square-wave PWM (at 90-volt amplitude) on these things? Reducing the on-time duty cycle ought to reduce the apparent brightness and at something like 20K frequency the persistence of vision ought to keep flicker down for a considerable range ...
gmpullmanMy Union Station sign has a bad contact on the left-hand segment
I think Randy’s concern is if the chemical properties of the paint will effect the EL material.Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
RR_MelI think Randy’s concern is if the chemical properties of the paint will effect the EL material.
My guess for whether spraying a coating would ruin one of these signs would be no, in nearly any case.
If you have a flat-faced panel with EL segments embedded, the face material is what would be coated.
If you have 'beads' of EL material exposed, it is unlikely that short-term exposure to at least water-based vehicle would cause 'loss of glow' combined with opacity. The coating certainly won't permeate very far...
In fact, I'd suspect the actual EL material in these signs may already have been coated (for environmental tolerance, resistance to scratching, etc.) and so applying a dulling coat would be no different than on other shiny clear coatings...
All we need is a small amount of silica fume or similar transparent 'microsphere' sort of material, in a suitable clear material. If Dullcote itself is too thick or 'white' when dried, I'd bet it wouldn't take long to figure out a formula that would be right.
I have a 12 VDC post supply driving my structure illumination bus on my layout. I measure the current when I get a Miller sign and drive the sign's electronics board from the bus using a dropping resistor to avoid batteries and having more on-off switches to throw.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Animated signs modern? Check this thing out, from 1910! It's just a shame there is no motion picture film of it working. Explained why in the video. Still a shame. All run by basically a giant drum of switches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0KZXsZWP0E
Like I said, I don't have any of the Miller signs yet, but if they are faced with a sheet of acetate, then it should already be not too shiny, and Dulcote shouldn't hurt it if it needs to be dulled down even more. Yes, my concern was the solvent in the paint possibly dissolving the EL material if it was directly exposed - like how many plastics are damaged by solvent paints if not first primed.
I used to have those EL night lights all over. A lot more recently than 30 years ago. Now they just make them with LEDs. Timex Indiglo clocks also use EL - I stil have and use my battery powered one, and it too has a cheap coil in it, when I hit the button to light up the screen, the whine is clearly audible even as old as I am, a high pitched whine, that trails off since the lighting circuit seems to basically charge up a capacitor which poweres the backlight for a few seconds after you let go of the button. I'd build a nixie tube clock for bedside, but I don;t want to try smashing the snooze button on something like that, or fry the cat if she walks across it. I've probably had this thing for 30 years, one AA lasts a couple of years. Only problem is it runs fast - but that's better than it running slow. So I get up a little earlier than expected...
gmpullman One thing I CAN attest to is the 90 volts of high frequency current. Don't grab the PC board while energized. Glad I don't have a pacemaker!
90 volts???
Yikes.
Overmod In my opinion, the easiest way to deal with a sign like a Miller is just to cut a piece of lightly 'frosted' adhesive clear plastic sheet to get a nonglare surface. In theory you could use non-glare glass like that made for photo frames, or another framing "solution" to reduce the shine.
In my opinion, the easiest way to deal with a sign like a Miller is just to cut a piece of lightly 'frosted' adhesive clear plastic sheet to get a nonglare surface. In theory you could use non-glare glass like that made for photo frames, or another framing "solution" to reduce the shine.
richhotrainI was thinking along those same lines, but there are so many irregularly shaped signs that it might be a lot of work to do, and I wonder if the adhesive would damage the surface of the sign.
Another possibility is intentional damage to the glossy surface -- very slight damage producing the frosted surface, that is. I don't know if 'sanding liquid' is still legally sold or reasonably available, but a product that would just 'craze' the surface of shiny plastic and then evaporate when you wiped it on in a thin layer would neatly fill the bill; it might even serve for signs that are already installed on structures, better than trying to use a paint or brushed/sprayed coating on them there...
Here's the results of my in-depth investigation:
Miller sign before:
Miller_GE_gloss by Edmund, on Flickr
Miller sign after:
Miller_GE_matte by Edmund, on Flickr
Methodology:
The front of the sign seems to be plain acetate with the electronics applied from the back and laminated with a simple adhesive layer of what seems to be plain packing tape or similar clear substrate.
I washed off both faces of the sign, being careful to keep the solder pads and wire connection dry, using plain isopropyl alcohol.
The first application of Testors DullCote went on very smoothly but I decided that the gloss had not been reduced as much as I'd expected. Twenty minutes later I gave a second coat of DullCote and I immediately noticed orange-peel on the surface. I've had this happen before with DullCote for some reason.
After roughly a half-hour I decided to try a layer of Rustoleum "Dead Flat" spray over top of the DullCote. This dried to a nice, even finish and this is what you see in the photo.
Now, keep in mind some of the Miller signs are designed so the clear area is supposed to be "invisible" so any application of a matte finish is going to negate this effect.
If I were to DullCote my Union Station sign the see-through effect would be destroyed:
IMG_6325_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
OvermodHey, Ed, I hear opportunity knocking! I'd bet just sticking a pin carefully into the panel would pick up that segment -- then drive it off a separate supply. — and hook it up so the 'broken' segment flickers pseudorandomly like an old neon display going bad... might be evocative of a whole certain era...
Miller already has that option and it is very effective. The Union Station sign in particular has about fifty "steps" each one selecting a different sequence or effect for the sign driver.
As for my bad segment, if I press very hard on one spot of the membrane I can get it to light so there is an internal "open" in there. Trick would be to inject some kind of contact enhancement between the layers, OR do what I did and buy a new sign for forty bucks. I'll use the defective one on the back of the building
Regards, Ed
Very, very interesting, Ed. Now, let's see what the OP has to say about that technique. It sure seems promising.
EdDoes the sign still work after the paint? Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.