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Talk to me about Layout lighting

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Talk to me about Layout lighting
Posted by gary233 on Friday, December 21, 2018 11:19 AM

Getting ready to start installing backround and lighting.  What do you recommend and why? Fluorescent, Hallogen, LED’s, Strips, tubes, receptacles?

All perspectives welcome.

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Posted by Onewolf on Friday, December 21, 2018 11:46 AM

I am using (double) 2835 cool white LED strips to light the lower two levels of my layout.  At the time (2015) the 2835 LEDs had the best lumen/watt efficiency compard to the 5630/5050/3528 LED strips. I'm not sure if that's still the case.  See this link for more info/photos:  http://onewolf.org/Album/LayoutConstruction/2015/index.html#IMG_3110.JPG

 

Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.

- Photo album of layout construction -

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Posted by BNSF UP and others modeler on Friday, December 21, 2018 12:01 PM

Why not buy RGB ones while you are at it? They can double for night time/sunset themes as well as layout lighting and only cost around $10 on ebay for 16 feet lengths, power supply and remote included. And they ship from the US too...

I'm beginning to realize that Windows 10 and sound decoders have a lot in common. There are so many things you have to change in order to get them to work the way you want.

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Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Friday, December 21, 2018 12:31 PM

    I would not recommend fluorescent lights. They are old fashion. The tubes and the ballasts both are hazardous waste and it is against the law now to throw them in the trash. Lately I have been replacing them in my house and other people’s houses with LED fixtures.
    If you are building a valance to hide the lights then LED is a good way to go. If you are leaving it open then you might consider track lights hung over the aisles. You can aim them at scenes you want to highlight and adjust them as you wish since they are directional.

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad
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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, December 21, 2018 12:36 PM

I will start out with my experience with layout lighting.  I learned everything the hard way.
 
When I started construction for my layout in our two car garage.  The garage interior was totally finished with textured walls, popcorn ceiling and carpeted floor.  The house was the show house for the development and sales office.
 
I removed the carpet as the house was ten years old and the previous owners had been parking their cars on the carpet for ten years.
 
I wanted plenty of light and went with five dual tube eight foot fluorescent fixtures.  Plenty of light but fluorescent lighting fades the scenery very fast, I had to re-flock my scenery three times over twenty years.  The green flocking would be almost colorless in twelve years.  I had learned on earlier layouts that incandescent light was bad at fading so I went with fluorescent.
 
Earlier this year I cutover to LED lighting, they say that LEDs do not fade colors, no UV from LEDs.  I still have plenty of light without any fading as well as reducing the Ready Kilowatt costs.  This summer I spent a lot of time re-flocking my layout for the last time . . . . I hope.
 
I redid the entire house with LED lighting and cut our electric bill by some major bucks, I figure the LED lighting will pay for its self in less then three years.  As for the garage the fluorescent bulbs didn’t last very long before they were dim or flickering and the cost of the bulbs was going up quickly.  I figure the garage LEDs have already paid for themselves in less than a year, I rarely got more than two years from a eight foot fluorescent bulb and at our big box store they are $7 each and 10 eight foot LED bulbs from Amazon was $130 free S&H.
 
As far as I’m concerned LEDs are the only way to go, more light for less money and no fading.
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, December 21, 2018 12:45 PM

Fading is caused by UV, not IR.  That, and maybe cheap dyes.

 

Ed

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Posted by doctorwayne on Friday, December 21, 2018 12:52 PM

My layout room, approximately 560sq. ft. in total area, uses mostly fluorescent lights, with 27 4' double-tube fixtures, two 8' double-tube fixtures, and 2 LED fill lights.  The layout is partially double-decked, with some of those fixtures suspended from beneath the upper level of the layout.
I would switch to LED fixtures, but the prices for them are still too high, and the light output (lumens) still too low.  I also intend to replace one of those 4'-ers with a double-tube 8'-er.  Tubes are "cool white", LEDs are "daylight".  No noticeable fading of scenery, although most of the fluorescents have plastic covers (suspended ceiling).

Wayne

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Posted by RR_Mel on Friday, December 21, 2018 1:12 PM

7j43k

Fading is caused by UV, not IR.  That, and maybe cheap dyes.

 

Ed

 

Thanks for catching my error.  After fighting a bad head cold I'm surprised that I did that good.

 

 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by 7j43k on Friday, December 21, 2018 1:16 PM

Thanks to the internet, you can still hang around with your ne'er-do-well buddies, even if you're sickly.

 

Ed

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Posted by gary233 on Friday, December 21, 2018 1:41 PM

Thanks for the replies. all my research points to LED’s as is the opinion here.  Now what are the LED Options?

If I use bulb bases, that’s hard wired into house current (Yes?) If I use dual row LED strips connected to a 12v supply how long of a strip can I use with a single supply?

The LEFT - BACK & Right side up to the beginning of the bottom right curve will be against the walls. There will be a valance around the layout that can have LED lights behind it.  Separate room lighting will be used in the bottom isle.

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, December 21, 2018 1:58 PM

Hi Gary,

I agree with using LED lighting, but I would suggest that you avoid certain types of LED 'bulbs'. We have just installed some new lighting fixtures in our kitchen and dining room. The fixtures came with 'G9' halogen bulbs. When I was looking for  LED replacements on Amazon I made a point of reading the reviews and what I found was really shocking (pardon the pun). The failure rate on G9 bulbs is huge! It was rare to find a bulb with better than a 3.5 rating out of 5. That's a 30% failure rating within the first few months. LED bulbs are supposed to last for thousands of hours.

The G9 fixtures tend to be a bit pricey so you probably wouldn't have gone there anyhow, but just in case I thought I should mention it.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, December 21, 2018 1:59 PM

I still like dimmers.  I like to be able to control how bright the room is.

I have some crossing gates and signals that are controlled with between-the-ties photo sensors.  With dimmers, I can set the room lights just right for a night scene while still having the crossing gates active.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, December 21, 2018 2:04 PM

MisterBeasley
I still like dimmers.  I like to be able to control how bright the room is.

There are now dimmers available that are designed to work with LEDs, but the LEDs themselves have to rated as 'Dimmable'. Edit: Not many are. Many are not.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by gmpullman on Friday, December 21, 2018 2:51 PM

My layout room (basement) is divided by the staircase and laundry room. With that I have an "old-side" and a "new-side". The old side has a ceiling that is attached to the floor joists and the new side has suspended ceiling.

In both cases I have lighting for work sessions where I want bright, even lighting. Like Mel, my light sources have evolved over the past quarter-century.

On the "new side" I have lay-in troffer 2' x 4' fluorescent housings which I first upgraded from larger T-12 tubes and big, hot magnetic ballasta to smaller T-8s with electronic ballasts. Recently, I gutted those and placed LED retrofit tubes in place of the T-8s.

I was always bothered by the buzzing of the ballasts, even the electronic ballasts have some 60 hZ. hum. I like the LEDs with their silent, cool, BRIGHT light.

I have also installed some 2' x 2' LED flat panel fixtures as well. These are BRIGHT!

 

 IMG_8609_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

I also have some high-output T-5 fluorescents in soffit lighting around part of the room.

Then I have an "operations mode" lighting system using many recessed mini-can lights, track lights and soffit lighting. These are all dimmable. Most are MR-16 format but some are Edison base LEDs both in PAR 30 sizes down to mini-spot PAR 16 size.

 IMG_8624_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

The mini-recessed cans can be angled to highlight certain scenes and on some of the track lights I have goose-neck MR-16 lamps that can easily be manipulated for taking photos or re-directing the lighting as needed.On the "old side" I have mostly recessed can lights that I've also installed retrofit LED flood lights in supplimented with some surface mount LED flat panels.

 IMG_8647 by Edmund, on Flickr

 IMG_1493 by Edmund, on Flickr

 

There are hundreds of different dimmable LEDs on the market today. Most of mine run about $3-4 each. I use ordinary wall switch dimmers. I had to change-out one that didn't seem to play well with some of the dimmable LEDs. Leviton has some wall switch dimmers that are rated for LED use but some of my older ones work fine, too.

 IMG_8623_fix by Edmund, on Flickr

 

 

Take a look at Amazon or 1000bulbs.com for some choices and options.

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-light-bulbs/

Good Luck, Ed

 

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Posted by gary233 on Friday, December 21, 2018 5:32 PM

WOW lots to digest.

PED
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Posted by PED on Friday, December 21, 2018 11:30 PM

As you have figured out, LED is the way to go. Lots of options on how to get it done. I did not have a uniform ceiling structure to work due to overhanging cabiniets and other stuff with so I ended up with hanging LED lighting over my layout. I got the kind that hangs down on a chain and you can link them together so they operate as one light. Looks like you have a ceiling to work with so that is probably a good option for you to work with.

Here is a suggestion on something I overlooked. Create more than one lighting source for the room. You may want a specific configuration of lights for lighting the layout but you may want something different to just light the room when working in there but not runing trains.

Paul D

N scale Washita and Santa Fe Railroad
Southern Oklahoma circa late 70's

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Posted by selector on Saturday, December 22, 2018 1:30 AM

I have four of these installed in the ceiling of my 9X20 train room.  They throw off plenty of light.  Not inexpensive, but they are what I wanted and so far giving excellent service.

{I don't have any connection whatsoever with the firm here, just posting their listings as examples of what I have} 

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/2x2-led-panel-fixtures-4000K/

 

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Posted by BigDaddy on Saturday, December 22, 2018 7:45 AM

My recollection from previous discussions is there is a preference for the higher color temperature (cooler) 

My neighbor replaced the recessed spot lights in his kitchen with cool led bulbs and it looks a little too industrial to me.  However lighting a kitchen isn't the same as lighting a model railroad that is supposed to be outside.

Is everyone happy with their color choice?

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

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Posted by RR_Mel on Saturday, December 22, 2018 9:35 AM

BigDaddy

My recollection from previous discussions is there is a preference for the higher color temperature (cooler) 

My neighbor replaced the recessed spot lights in his kitchen with cool led bulbs and it looks a little too industrial to me.  However lighting a kitchen isn't the same as lighting a model railroad that is supposed to be outside.

Is everyone happy with their color choice?

 

Henry
 
Because I started out with cool white fluorescent fixtures in my garage in 1988 I stayed with cool white LED lighting.  For one reason I thought I would have less light using warm white.  I didn’t really see much difference other than equal and slightly more light than I expected.  The LED eight foot tubes are slightly directional and I have found that to be a good advantage because I can direct more light where I want it.  And yes I’m very happy with the LED lighting for my model railroad.
 
As for the rest of the house I went with warm white LED lighting mainly because that is what I was replacing.  I didn’t want to mess with any color changing effect, females can be touchy about color temperature when it comes to clothing.  The amount of light didn’t seem to change when comparing it to the before incandescent lighting and my spouse very happy with the change, she absolutely loves the LED lighting.
 
I had several Circline fluorescent fixtures and found the Circline LEDs too costly and replaced the entire fixtures with round LED fixtures for half the cost of replacing the bulbs.
 
Overall we’re very happy with the LED lighting and reducing our Ready Kilowatt cost was a plus.
 
 
 
Mel
 
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by gmpullman on Saturday, December 22, 2018 9:59 AM

BigDaddy
Is everyone happy with their color choice?

Yes.

I try to stay in the warmer end of the spectrum. 2700-3000K is good to my eye.

http://lowel.tiffen.com/edu/color_temperature_and_rendering_demystified.html

Generally, the replacement tubes (fluorescent style) and flat-panel LEDs are in the cooler temperature (°K) range and I can live with that for my "task" lighting or general room lighting. For the operating or display mode (spot lights and can lights) I prefer the warmer temperatures, closest to incandescent as possible.

Thank You, Ed

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, December 22, 2018 11:17 AM

hon30critter
MisterBeasley
I still like dimmers.  I like to be able to control how bright the room is.

 

There are now dimmers available that are designed to work with LEDs, but the LEDs themselves have to rated as 'Dimmable'. Edit: Not many are. Many are not.

Dave

I had dimmers on ceiling floods in my old train room.  I bought new bulbs and dimmers, but I moved before I installed them.  They are not interchangeable so you need to replace the whole system.

It's one of those things that are best to do before anything else.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by doctorwayne on Saturday, December 22, 2018 12:17 PM

I used colour-balanced fluorescents for an earlier layout, and while the light quality was good, the quantity was insufficient.  Those tubes, at that time, were rather expensive and also difficult to start, and I generally left them on all of the time.
I now use the cool whites mainly because of their high lumen output, and have found that my eyes quickly adapted to accept the light as sunlight, even though it's very obviously not.

When suitable LED replacement fixtures become more affordable, I may replace the fluorescents on a piecemeal basis, but I think that the layout may be gone before that happens.  As it is, the lights aren't on all that often, so operational costs are minimal.  The rest of the house is lit by LEDs.
As for disposal of spent tubes, we have programmes in place for collection and recovery of such materials.

Wayne

 

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Posted by rrebell on Saturday, December 22, 2018 11:48 PM

I last used track lighting with LED bulbs. The main tracks I bought localy but all the cans and connectors I bought on e-bay. The secret is is to learn all the names, past and present that used the main tracks you chose. I bought cans for less than $2 and conectors for even less.

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Posted by nealknows on Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:46 AM

I have a 20'x20' room with 16 high hats installed. 4 rows of 4 and each row on its own switch. I use 13W CFL flood lights gives off 91 watts of light. Very cost efficient and they last for a long time. Some of the bulbs are in there over 10 years with no issues. Also the room has a trey ceiling so the two outer rows use more of the angled high hats. Overall room height is 11 feet. 

Neal

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:32 AM

Gary,

Observations:

Go for a CRI of at least 90 in the bulbs you use.

Decide on the light temperature you are going to use and use the same temp everywhere on the layout and for the lights that you use when you build and paint/weather models at your workbench.

temps are roughly as follows:

3000K is incandescent - tends to yellow/ orange hue

4000K is cool white (shop lites/flourescent) - tends to bluish hue

5000+K is s light - tends to a lighter blue

I had no choice but to stick with the incandescent temperature as I already had many models painted and weathered in that light that didn't  look right to my eyes at other temps.

I ended up with CPFLs in. sockets on the valence ala Joe Fugate. I have been very happy with them going on ten years. If I were starting over it would be LED strips for me.

Your mileage will vary,

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:46 PM

 I am planning on using LED strips. Based on installign some on my workbench, I think I will need, for most parts, 2 strips of white, but then I am also runnign a strip of RGB and a strip of blue, so I can do daylight, dusk, dawn, and night effects. Over the aisles, I plan to use the 2x2 and 2x4 panels in the drop ceiling - no more fluorescents. The panels will be for construction and also normal movement through the basement, both levels of the layout will have a valence (lower deck's 'valence' is the upper deck) hoding the LED strips. Dimming and RGB color control happens ont he low voltage side, just need enough adequate power supplies. The limit to how many you can string isn't necessaily the power supply, the flexible cirvuit board they mount on can only pass so much current so after too long a string, you have too much voltage drop and/or possible heating of the strips themselves (independent of the LEDs getting warm, which they do). 

 The use of LED strips is no longer cost prohibitive like it was not all that many years ago, but it is a good idea to get all you need at one time, once you find a brand with the charateristics you like. Matching some made a few years apart, by different manuafacturers, may not result in a smooth transistion from one section to another.

                                       --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

PED
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Posted by PED on Monday, December 24, 2018 9:16 AM

Another thought. Placement of the layout lighting is critical. Need to place the lights so that they do not cast undesirable shadows.To far to front or back of structures will leave a noticeable shadow. To some degree, this can be avoided with a wide array of lights.

Paul D

N scale Washita and Santa Fe Railroad
Southern Oklahoma circa late 70's

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Posted by gary233 on Monday, December 24, 2018 1:45 PM

rrinker

 I am planning on using LED strips. Based on installign some on my workbench, I think I will need, for most parts, 2 strips of white, but then I am also runnign a strip of RGB and a strip of blue, so I can do daylight, dusk, dawn, and night effects. Over the aisles, I plan to use the 2x2 and 2x4 panels in the drop ceiling - no more fluorescents. The panels will be for construction and also normal movement through the basement, both levels of the layout will have a valence (lower deck's 'valence' is the upper deck) hoding the LED strips. Dimming and RGB color control happens ont he low voltage side, just need enough adequate power supplies. The limit to how many you can string isn't necessaily the power supply, the flexible cirvuit board they mount on can only pass so much current so after too long a string, you have too much voltage drop and/or possible heating of the strips themselves (independent of the LEDs getting warm, which they do). 

 The use of LED strips is no longer cost prohibitive like it was not all that many years ago, but it is a good idea to get all you need at one time, once you find a brand with the charateristics you like. Matching some made a few years apart, by different manuafacturers, may not result in a smooth transistion from one section to another.

                                       --Randy

 

Randy can you post the LED strip site and which you are using for white, RGB and Blue? Mine will be behind the valance.  When you say LED strips are you talking a lit the rolled up strips or something else?

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, December 24, 2018 3:10 PM

 I haven't picked a specific brand yet, as I don't yet know how much I will need and I don't want to mix manufacturers. Yes, I mean the stuff that comes on reels, like what OneWolf used. The RGB is less picky, but still want to keep them all the same so a given 'mix' of colors results in a uniform shade across the entire layout. Ditto with blue. White is more picky because of getting both the correct color temperature and a decent CRI, since they are the primary source of light. The RGB and blue ones are more for effect than actually lighting up the layout.

                            --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Wednesday, December 26, 2018 10:36 AM

I need proper ceiling lights for a basement I am planning to finishe with a drop ceiling, so I plan to use the 2x2 troffer lights like in GMPULMANs photo above.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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