BRAKIEDave,If I may ask? How do you select the better track layers?
Hi Brakie:
Selecting who to lead the track laying really amounted to who came forward to do the job. One member has taken the lead. He has had a layout for 20+ years and his methods are sound so he naturally fell into the position. There are other members who will be laying track following his lead when we get to that point. We are making a concerted effort to involve as many members as possible in the construction so hopefully we won't be leaving anyone out in the cold. We are certainly not going to say to a member that they can't work on what they want to, and we will teach them to do the job correctly.
The biggest challenge might come when we start to do scenery. We have made it clear that poor scenery construction will be torn out and re-done. Some of the scenery on our portable layout is, how shall I say this, lousey! What we propose to do is to build some scenery to our standards and then say to the membership that that is the standard to which we will work.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat kind of jumpers are you adding to tthe turnouts? Atlas turnouts right? Bad idea in my opinion (remember I'm the Atlas turnout fan). If you are talking about jumpers to the points, waste of time.
Hi Sheldon:
I don't have a turnout on hand to show you the modifications. When I get some more turnouts to modify I will post some pictures.
As far as the points being stiff after the jumpers are applied, they are not. The jumpers are long enough that they impart almost no resistance to the point movement.
As far as where I am soldering the jumpers to the point rails, I have found it quite easy to solder the jumpers inside the hollow bottom of the point rails two ties away from the pivot points. The jumpers come out of the bottom of the point rails and are soldered to the closure rails and the stock rails about six ties from the pivot points. The resulting jumper is about 1 1/2" long. I use stranded 26 ga. wire. Again, I'll post some pictures when I do more turnouts.
We have debated installing jumpers and the nay sayers who have seen my jumper installation have no problems with how they are done. Again, they do not measurably restrict the movement of the point rails. When the point rails are moved from side to side they stay where they are positioned. The jumpers are not pulling the point rails away from the stock rails.
Perhaps the most difficult aspect of installing the jumpers is cutting away the cork roadbed to allow space for them to move. We will have to make sure that we don't let the ballast glue get into the clearance space for the jumpers. I have a solution for that too.
We said when we started out to build this layout that we would not cut corners. Not installing the jumpers amounts to taking a chance, i.e. cutting a corner.
Regarding who does what on the layout construction.......
The one "actual club" I belonged to that has a layout, has always largely been a benevolent dictatorship.....the guys who started it were all very skilled craftsmen, new people asked to help and were mentored my them, the old timers controlled ALL projects.
In the end things were done only to the highest standards by those with the best skills in that area.
I learned a lot there and quickly became part of several projects.
But now at my age, a club is just not my thing.
Sheldon
Yes that is a good question, why nails, caulk is so much better.
I picked the Polyseamseal brand because when I got caulk, it was 30 cents a tube cheaper. I saved 60 cents on that layout! Also they either were out of DAP clear, or the only DAP clear they had was the silicon stuff. It worked well so I just used the same on the next layout.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Boy, I sure agree with the caulk idea. While your laying track, the caulk stays flexible enough that you can still go back and make slight alignment adjustments, as needed.
I've been following the build, Dave. Anxious to see the results.
Mike.
My You Tube
rrinker That crimped part that clips the points to the flat piece of metal that connects the points to the stock rails and closure rails is a weak point, always has been. Not as bad as the old Atlas turnouts that used actual rivets, but still it is a poor method of contact - effectively a rail joiner that is always moving. A jumper there isn;t going to keep the points from moving, unless you solder on some .032 brass wire or something. Decoder wire is the thing to use, multi-strand #30 is super flexible and won;t break like anything solid that is repeatedly flexed. Plus th emovement is slight enough anyway. As for track nails - caulk, my friend. Caulk. You would have had half the track done in a single night. --Randy
That crimped part that clips the points to the flat piece of metal that connects the points to the stock rails and closure rails is a weak point, always has been. Not as bad as the old Atlas turnouts that used actual rivets, but still it is a poor method of contact - effectively a rail joiner that is always moving. A jumper there isn;t going to keep the points from moving, unless you solder on some .032 brass wire or something. Decoder wire is the thing to use, multi-strand #30 is super flexible and won;t break like anything solid that is repeatedly flexed. Plus th emovement is slight enough anyway.
As for track nails - caulk, my friend. Caulk. You would have had half the track done in a single night.
I'm just going on my own trouble free experiance, and that of fellow modelers who's layout I operate on. 20 year old layouts built with Atlas code 83, zero failures......
As for laying track, agreed, caulk, my preference, clear "PolySeamSeal" adheasive caulk.
Why? Because it is thicker/heavier, and takes a set quickly.
hon30critterWe have already done what you suggest in terms of selecting a few capable members and having them take the lead on the various aspects of layout construction.
Dave,If I may ask? How do you select the better track layers? I consider myself above average in track laying and still been passed over several times at various clubs for helping with the track work.
At one club I was never asked to help on any project even though I volunteered my help.. I didn't stay long there.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
hon30critter By the way, I am the Vice President, not the President.
By the way, I am the Vice President, not the President.
Rich
Alton Junction
Dave,
What kind of jumpers are you adding to tthe turnouts? Atlas turnouts right?
Bad idea in my opinion (remember I'm the Atlas turnout fan).
If you are talking about jumpers to the points, waste of time.
Because the Atlas turnout is not power routing, but is prewired for feed through, the points are powered from both ends on the selected route, the pivot point of the points in made in such a way that it is very electrically sound.
Jumpers there are just an opportunity restrict their movement and cause problems. The points rely on the fact that they "float" somewhat until they are pushed against the stock rail.
To stiff of a jumper sounds like a problem, as does soldering on the flange side of the rail/point - the back seems too hard to reach to do that cleanly?
richhotrainDave, when I read your description of these group sessions, I vicarioulsy worry that the sessions border on chaos.
Rich, you need not worry. I think you might be reading too much into my comments. We aren't quite in a state of chaos just yet. I apologise if I am making things out to be worse than they actually are. All I am doing really is venting about the every day obstacles that we are encountering. Perhaps I'm being too honest or maybe too dramatic, but I don't think anyone in the club would be offended by my observations. All is going well!
We have already done what you suggest in terms of selecting a few capable members and having them take the lead on the various aspects of layout construction. Most of the rest of the members are quite willing to help out. Last night's activities were a great example of that. We got a lot done and most of it was according to plan. There were a couple of framing pieces that had to be done over, but that is no big deal. The framing is a bit complex.
By the way, I am the Vice President, not the President. The President is doing a far better job of it than I could do in that position.
Dave, when I read your description of these group sessions, I vicarioulsy worry that the sessions border on chaos. You are the President of the club. Why not become more autocratic and call for a more disciplined approach to this whole effort?
It seems to me that you need to find the few guys with the highest level of skill to do the framework and track work. The other guys can act as assistants or apprentices. I would worry that the final product may suffer from too many inexperienced hands.
No offense, I would just like to hear that this project is proceeding quite nicely. Good luck with all of this.
hon30critterIf the last spike is the Golden Spike, what do you call the first spike?
Um... Virgin Spike?
Sandpaper? All of my Midwest cork was leveled and profiled using the Stanley Surform "Cheese Graters" I mentioned in an earlier reply.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-Surform-Shaver-21-115/100654913
They are the perfect tool for taking the edge off the beveled side.
For leveling, the longer "Plane" model is ideal:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-6-in-Pocket-Surform-Plane-21-399/202262007
Once you use one of these on cork you'll never go back to sand paper. I have used the plane to give a slight "superelevation" by giving just a bit more pressure while shaping the inside radius. Not much, mind you, but just a bit.
On my mainline curves I used .015" strip styrene.
Dave, you are conjuring up a lot of supressed memories from my "club days"
I had just purchased a new $40. battery for my Makita cordless drill. (Back when 7.2 volts was tops) The following week, during a work session we needed the spare battery. Not in the charger you say?
Where in blazes did that battery go? Twenty-plus minutes of searching tool boxes, shelves, even the loo. No go.
So, a little while later one of the guys hollers "Found It". Sure enough, there it was, wedged in the bottom of the door jamb holding the door open that warm Summer night! No one 'fessed up to that one. Fortunately it didn't split open! The plastic groove was forever messed up so that EVERY time I put that battery in the drill I was reminded of the knucklehead that decided to use it as a door wedge!
Cheers! Ed
We actually started to lay track tonight! Or, at least we tried to lay track. We got one turnout down and then realized that we needed to drill the nail holes in the Atlas flex track. We didn't have the right sized drill bit on hand. Nor did we have a pin vise. Full stop!
We did get a lot of other stuff done. Everyone who was at the club pitched in. Most of the peninsula cross beams are installed and we now have a really good idea of what the peninsula will look like. It is bigger than most of the members anticipated, but we have managed to allow for some decent aisle space so we won't be having to squeeze by each other in the aisles.
Everyone has agreed that we will add jumpers to the turnouts. I appreciate Randy's suggestion that we set up an assembly line but we still have yet to buy a proper soldering iron. What I might do is install the jumpers on a few turnouts and then ask the members if they think they can do the same on their own at home. Several have said no already, and I am a bit concerned about cold joints and melted ties, but we do have to get the members involved in all aspects of the layout construction.
I have to admit that I got rather ticked off tonight. I had brought in a bunch of sandpaper a few weeks ago to be used to round the edge of the cork roadbed off. It was nowhere to be found. I expressed my displeasure rather vocally about the fact that some (expletives deleted) person had put it where it couldn't be found. Finally one of the members decided to go through all of the tool boxes (we have several) and voila, there was the sandpaper. This particular tool box hardly ever gets opened. It's only used at the shows. Why anyone in their right mind would put something that was being used constantly in a box that was rarely ever opened is beyond me!
I'll get some more pictures of the peninsula soon.
If the last spike is the Golden Spike, what do you call the first spike?
I was going to add, if you have anyone remeotely decent at soldering, it shouldn;t take long if all capable people pitch in. Even non-solderers, if you do it assembly line fashion - you don't have to know how to solder to cut little piece of wire to length.
rrinkerDO it now. Far easier to add them BEFORE the turnouts are installed.
I'm going to quote you Randy!!! We have one member who doesn't think it is worth the effort to install the jumpers, but even he admits that he does have occasional problems with dead switches. I volunteered to install the jumpers. I have done 39 Pecos for my own layout and it only took a couple of evenings. The Atlas turnouts are far simpler to do.
Thanks for confirming my decision to add the jumpers.
Cheers!!
DO it now. Far easier to add them BEFORE the turnouts are installed. Though I've seen a way using a springy phosphor bronze wire just stuck between the stock and point rails and held there by virtual of it being springy, but that won;t be as goods as small flexible jumpers soldered on.
Anything that improves long term reliability, especially for a slight effort, is well worth it, especially for a larger layout. Fix 50 turnouts now, while you cna sit at a workbench and turn them every which way to get access, or wait and troubleshoot them one at a time when a train suddenly starts stalling where it used to run fine, which of COURSE will happen on the busiest day of a public open house.
Just a couple of pictures of the layout progress:
The partially built peninsula framing is in the forground and you can see the elevated track in the backgound. The peninsula is 9' x 16'. It will have two or three access hatches so we can reach into the center. There will be no track in the center so access is only needed during construction:
The service area is larger than it appears. It is 19' from the top of the balloon to the back wall:
The Layout Committee had a productive meeting tonight. One of the discussions was about whether or not to add jumpers to the Atlas turnouts between the point rails and the closure rails. Adding the jumpers is recommended by Alan Gartner in his Wiring for DCC blog to guarantee long term proper operation of the turnouts. Any comments?
Considering how big a layout those guys are building (look at all the benchwork pieces stacked up on the left), it probbaly saves a lot in the long run to use a roll of cork and cut it themselves. But for most home layouts? By the time you built the cutting table and build it, you could just buy a few boxes of Midwest cork and be done.
Interesting cork cutting setup,...look down just a few photos for pic and description
http://wyomingdivision.org/photographs.htm
...lets experiment
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
I use one of those blade breakoff knives to fix any inperfections on the sides of the cork. So who remembers when there was a cork shortage about 5 years back and they bought Midwests cork with more rubber in it, they soon went back to the old formula but that stuff was almost impossible to sand and would not carve down smoothly.
gmpullman I might mention to those who may not be familiar with the "split and beveled" roadbed that it is important to use a Stanlet Surform tool to remove the rough edge at the top of the bevel. If you don't do this it will haunt you later when you go to do your ballast.
I might mention to those who may not be familiar with the "split and beveled" roadbed that it is important to use a Stanlet Surform tool to remove the rough edge at the top of the bevel. If you don't do this it will haunt you later when you go to do your ballast.
hon30critterIn keeping with our policy of not cutting corners we have chosen to stick with the Mid West cork sheets.
I agree, Dave!
We are fortunate that Midwest still maintains a very good quality in their product. It seems to have a rubber-like material "alloyed" with the cork. It makes for a very stable and smooth base for our track.
At this very moment, I'm scraping up some Midwest cork that I put down over twenty-years ago and it is as good today as it was then!
The longer Surform plane is good for leveling the high spots of your roadbed.
I will use the "Craft Store" type cork sheets for structure or highway bases. One of the close-out stores had 12" squares of cork, 1/4" thick at $2. for a pack of 4.
I stocked up on those
railandsailcertainly sheets of cork should be used for big 'areas' like yards, etc. and the rest of that roll of sheet cork coukd be cut into strips for conventional usage?
We do plan on using Mid West cork sheets for the yards and the service area, but for the mainlines and secondary track the bevelled cork strips are quick and easy.
One point about the 'rolled' cork sheets that you can get at the local big box stores. They are not the same as the Mid West cork sheets. The big box stuff has less bonding material than the Mid West cork. It has been suggested that the big box cork sheets can experience problems over time. In keeping with our policy of not cutting corners we have chosen to stick with the Mid West cork sheets.
In some instances I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to just place the track on a sheet of cork, then carve around the finished track plan. certainly sheets of cork should be used for big 'areas' like yards, etc. and the rest of that roll of sheet cork coukd be cut into strips for conventional usage??
Thanks Rich and Brian.
We worked on the layout on Tuesday night. We wanted to lay more cork but in one area we were having a devil of a time matching the diagram to the cork that had already been laid. After some head scratching we realized that one of our members had laid several feet of cork without consulting the diagram. He missed a turnout! The funny thing was that when the work was being done I told the member that he was doing a great job! I didn't think to check the diagram. I assumed he was following it. It cost us about eight feet of cork and the time it took to figure things out. No big deal, but it did illustrate the folly of assuming that the guy doing the work was doing it accurately!
It's not in my nature to question everything. In fact, I'm too accepting. I guess I'll have to go a bit against my nature in the future.
Cheers everyone!
That's a nice looking track plan. Wish I could fit such a plan in my train shed.
I need to get back to making choices and going forward with the potential plans I have under consideration.
Looks good, Dave.
I'm going to test my imgur skills by posting another image. This is a 3D view of the Club's new layout. The image was generated by 3rd PlanIt:
It seems to have worked!