May I suggest retiring the overly wide code 110 wheel to the same place brass rail, fiber tie strip and the x2f coupler went? I went to code 88 nickel-silver wheels and a whole list of problems disappeared along with shimming gaurdrails and painting frogs. Time for some updated NMRA standards?
zstripe...I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails.
I strongly suspect this as well. Unless something really unusual is at work, I just don't see wheels on any of the locos the OP listed being able to short on Atlas turnouts. I've never seen it happen. I went to my train room for grins and measured the gaps on Atlas code 100 and 83 turnouts, and none of them were anywhere near close enough for any of the wheels I have to short across them after departing the frog.
I HAVE seen plenty of cases of contact being lost through the points, which, combined with the dead frog, results in hesitation as the affected side of the loco has one truck on the frog and the other on the dead point rail. This problem can be exacerbated by the tendency of Atlas frog castings to be too high, which leads to further loss of contact as the truck goes over the frog and lifts wheels off the adjacent rails (unless you file the casting flush). This issue especially affects three axle trucks. Proper diagnosis is key. I hope the OP takes the advice previously given above to rule out an open before modifying to correct a short that isn't there.
Rob Spangler
richhotrainRicZ Pretty sure it is the divergent rail gap since it is very short. DCC sound Locos restart immediately after a short jerky pause.
Just my .....I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails.
Take Care!
Frank
BTW: Rob Spangler, has the same thought!
RicZPretty sure it is the divergent rail gap since it is very short. DCC sound Locos restart immediately after a short jerky pause. I will check the gap on each switch and file/grind the gap a little wider. Thanks for your help, I greatly appreciate it. RicZ
Rich
Alton Junction
RicZGauge is proper and width is right at limits. Wheels, measured with an NMRA gauge. Should wheel width fit into the gauge or just at it (my case)?
I can't recall for certain what the standards gauge instructions say on tread width, but I seem to recall a code 110 wheel (the normal width for HO) is not supposed to drop into the notch. It sounds to me like the wheels you measured are OK or very close.
So... measure the distance between the diverging frog rails on your turnouts to see if any of them are close enough for the correct width wheelsets to bridge across. Again, if you find any that are too close together, look for evidence of arcing. I'd recommend using a motor tool or file to remove enough of the back side of the rail head to keep wheels from being able to short across the gap. Make sure the issue is being properly diagnosed and it's a short instead of an open, otherwise fixing for a short won't do anything.
Checked the wheel gauge and width on the last engine that the problem occurred on, a Proto 2k, Burlington E-7. Gauge is proper and width is right at limits. Wheels, measured with an NMRA gauge. Should wheel width fit into the gauge or just at it (my case)?
Seperation bewteen divergent rails at the frog exit was also right at proper gauge width.
RicZ
OK so let's try some further diagnosis. Have you measured the wheel treads, and the gaps between the diverging rails, to see if the wheels are wide enough to bridge the gaps? Do you see physical evidence of shorting on the rail heads (pitting/"arc weld" marks) or the wheels? If so, using a file or motor tool to remove the affected areas between the diverging rails should eliminate the problem.
Another possibility is an open instead of a short. Atlas turnouts come with dead frogs. If the contact between the points and stock rails and/or closure rails is poor, a loco can stall when one truck is on the frog, and the other on the points. One whole side can lose electrical contact. You can test for this using clip leads to temporarliy jumper around the failed connection, and solve it by soldering jumper wires.
Some additional info. All questioned turnouts are Atlas #6. locos are all diesels; Atlas, BLI and Proto. Proble only occurs as the trucks pass over the frog.
Hi.
Some times the gap between the rails is not wide enough and I have used a narrow file to increase this gap. Worked for me.
Good luck.
Lee
richhotrainBut I have had that type of short on Peco Code 83 Insulfrog turnouts...
That does bring to mind a question, is the OP remembering the brand correctly? I wonder mostly because a buddy recently reported some trouble with an "Atlas" turnout, and couldn't get any of the typical Atlas troubleshooting to solve the issue. The turnout in question was actually an older Shinohara, and he had just forgotten. The explanation he gave for the trouble made no sense for an Atlas product, but things were easily resolved once the brand was identified.
Like Rob, I have a huge number of Atlas Custom Line #6 turnouts, both Code 83 and Code 100, and I have never experienced a short on the diverging frog rails.
But I have had that type of short on Peco Code 83 Insulfrog turnouts and crossings. I have used clear nail polish, but a more permanent solution is a narrow strip of masking tape laid over the point where the frog rails diverge.
The diverging rails from the frog only have to be far enough apart to keep a wheelset from bridging across them. Check your turnouts and any equipment that shorts to be sure the rail spacing is close enough for the wheels to short across them.
My layout probably has around 50 Atlas #6 turnouts, both code 100 in staging and 83 elsewhere. I've never experienced shorting at the frogs, and the diverging rails are far enough apart after the electrical gap I can't imagine having any wheels wide enough to short. Maybe your turnouts have some different dimensions, or you're running different equipment with problematic wheels. Before doing anything drastic, ensure the wheels on the problem equipment are sufficiently wide to cause the issue. You may have something else going on, like a steam loco shorting out going through the diverging route of a turnout due to pilot or trailing wheels or metal trucks hitting the frame.
An easier first step would be to check the gauge of the wheels. Using an NMRA gauge for your scale would help determine if the problem is the turnout or the wheelsets.
Good Luck!
Dan.
I have been experiencing some shorting at several of my turnouts. Most of the problems seem to be on Atlas #6 turnouts, both code 83 and code 100 (in hidden areas). I have read that shorts can occur when the wheels bridges the "clear" and "divergent" frog rails.
Several suggestions have been offered to correct this condition, and I would appreciate any others that may be out there. One solution has been to paint these rails after the frog with nail polish, but since that wears off and has to be replaced, it is not a suitable solution to the problem, especially in the hidden areas.
Another solution has been to place a 0.005" shim on the opposing guard rail to force the wheels away from the frog. Is this a good solution or just an "iffy" one?
The last solution that has been offered in the past is to increase the insulated area by cutting gaps further aft of the frog. How far back should those gaps be cut? 2mm, 5mm or an inch?
I am open to any and all suggestions and I greatly appreciate any help.