I am a bit late to this thread, but wanted to throw my in. I model in N scale and use exclusively Peco "#6" (medium radius) turnouts. I have the same problem as stated in the original post--shorts past the frog--as stated in the original post. My problem is not a dead spot as some above have suggested. I use automotive lightbulbs for "short management" so I know exactly when there is a short. What I figured out was that is was only Atlas locomotives that shorted across the diverging rails past the frog. I used the fingermail polish trick and voila, no more short.
Ron
Owner and superintendant of the N scale Texas Colorado & Western Railway, a protolanced representaion of the BNSF from Fort Worth, TX through Wichita Falls TX and into Colorado.
Check out the TC&WRy on at https://www.facebook.com/TCWRy
Check out my MRR How-To YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/c/RonsTrainsNThings
Thanks, Randy and Jim. You guys have been a great help.
RicZ
Yeah, you have it backwards Jim. The next smaller than a 2-56 is a 1-72 (in commooonly available US measurement sizes). 3-48 is getting big. 0 and 00 are the real tiny ones. It's opposite of wire - screws, the smaller the number, the smaller the diameter, but wire, the bigger the number, the smaller it is.
If clear Atlas changed something in the process. Mine are all older and all took the 1-72 (wonder if they changed the hardware they include with the Snap Relay). That's another way to do it - Atlas used to, hopefully still does, sell the nut, bolt, and brass strip that is used to connect the Deluxe Undertable machine to the frog (the Delux machine has contacts built in, as well as the pin for the throwbar). If you're able to tap the holes your idea should work fine, it's just that it will be fairly visibile, However, short of ripping up the turnout and applying a wire from the bottom there's not much else you can do.
Older Walthers and the Shinohara branded turnouts are more complex and need more work. Check the Wiring for DCC site, it shows what needs to be done. Newer Walthers it's only a matter of soldering a wire to the frog, it's made of the same material as the rails and thus takes solder like a piece of track.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Jim, I am a bit confused. Isn't the diameter of a 3-48 larger than a 2-56?
RocZ
That frog casting is designed for a 3-48 screw - Get a set of taps and tap it with 3-48 threads. I can jam a 2-56 screw in there, but half of the time the casting break.
BTW, Atlas was making track in China long before 2011. That shortage was due to having to leave the Kador factory and setup their own factory...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
See previous note.
rrinker I'll have to pull one of my turnouts and take the screw out (I never hooked the frog powe rup - ended up not needing to, even my smallest loco ran over the dead frogs no problem). I am quite sure it is a 1-72, it's smaller than the 2-56's used for kadee couplers. My turnouts are Code 83 ones, there may be a difference. A 1-72 most definitely was not too loose, it actually took a little effort to drive it in. A 2-56 tap took up almost the entire circle of metal, and as brittle as that stuff is it probably would have broken out. May be a difference between the different items, again, my turnouts were custom line code 83 #4's from prior to the move to China. If yours are newer or older, or code 100, might be different. --Randy
I'll have to pull one of my turnouts and take the screw out (I never hooked the frog powe rup - ended up not needing to, even my smallest loco ran over the dead frogs no problem). I am quite sure it is a 1-72, it's smaller than the 2-56's used for kadee couplers. My turnouts are Code 83 ones, there may be a difference. A 1-72 most definitely was not too loose, it actually took a little effort to drive it in. A 2-56 tap took up almost the entire circle of metal, and as brittle as that stuff is it probably would have broken out. May be a difference between the different items, again, my turnouts were custom line code 83 #4's from prior to the move to China. If yours are newer or older, or code 100, might be different.
i'll give them another try. Not sure about the origin of my turnouts as they were purchased (for the most part) during Atlas' move into China. 2011-2013.
(Friday, 11/4/16) I checked several turnouts last night and found that there is a difference in the size of the hole. Using the butt end of a 1/16 Jan drill bit, which fit through the first turnout, I tried it on two additional turnouts. The drill bit fit in the second turnout, but would not fit in the third.
Based on this, I think the 1-72 screw would fit the smaller hole, but the 2-56 screw did fit the first and second turnouts (after carefully tapping). There definitely is a difference.
Since the turnouts are already mounted on the layout, I plan to tap the holes and solder a wire to the screw to power the turnout frog.
Thoughts?
On a second note, what are the similar problems encountered on Walthers turnouts (I have one double crossover), and Peco turnouts ( I have 2 code 83 curved turnouts)?
Randy, I tried the 1-72 screws and they are too loose; 3-48 screws are way too large, so tried to tap the hole with a 2-56 tap -- it works, and the hole is large enough to allow a 1/16 drill to fit. I can drill through the sub-toad bed and 1/12 inch plywood to string the wire up through to be soldered to the screw.
Comments?
Pretty sure I just used Hob-Bits 1-72 brass screws for my turnouts. Didn't have to tap the hole, just screwed them in, but I did it at the workbench and made sure I was not putting pressure on the frog - it was supported by the bench. I did mine upside down, ran the screw in until the bottom was flush with the top of the frog, and hit the exposed surface with flat black to hide the brass color.
jrbernier Solder will not work. Get some 3-48 screws and tap the frog for them. then just solder the feeder wire to the screw. Atlas sells a 3-48 screw and brass contact strip just for this...
Solder will not work. Get some 3-48 screws and tap the frog for them. then just solder the feeder wire to the screw. Atlas sells a 3-48 screw and brass contact strip just for this...
RicZCan I solder a wire to the frog, and use the Tortoise contacts to power it? Are the metal frogs made of Nickle silver or "pot metal?"
Follow Jim Bernier's advice on using screws. Atlas frogs are pot metal and will not accept solder (unless you have access to a plating tool and can apply plating to the pot metal).
Rob Spangler
wp8thsub zstripe ...I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails. I strongly suspect this as well. Unless something really unusual is at work, I just don't see wheels on any of the locos the OP listed being able to short on Atlas turnouts. I've never seen it happen. I went to my train room for grins and measured the gaps on Atlas code 100 and 83 turnouts, and none of them were anywhere near close enough for any of the wheels I have to short across them after departing the frog. I HAVE seen plenty of cases of contact being lost through the points, which, combined with the dead frog, results in hesitation as the affected side of the loco has one truck on the frog and the other on the dead point rail. This problem can be exacerbated by the tendency of Atlas frog castings to be too high, which leads to further loss of contact as the truck goes over the frog and lifts wheels off the adjacent rails (unless you file the casting flush). This issue especially affects three axle trucks. Proper diagnosis is key. I hope the OP takes the advice previously given above to rule out an open before modifying to correct a short that isn't there.
zstripe ...I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails.
I strongly suspect this as well. Unless something really unusual is at work, I just don't see wheels on any of the locos the OP listed being able to short on Atlas turnouts. I've never seen it happen. I went to my train room for grins and measured the gaps on Atlas code 100 and 83 turnouts, and none of them were anywhere near close enough for any of the wheels I have to short across them after departing the frog.
I HAVE seen plenty of cases of contact being lost through the points, which, combined with the dead frog, results in hesitation as the affected side of the loco has one truck on the frog and the other on the dead point rail. This problem can be exacerbated by the tendency of Atlas frog castings to be too high, which leads to further loss of contact as the truck goes over the frog and lifts wheels off the adjacent rails (unless you file the casting flush). This issue especially affects three axle trucks. Proper diagnosis is key. I hope the OP takes the advice previously given above to rule out an open before modifying to correct a short that isn't there.
Sorry to be so late, I thought I had the problem solved, but it has re-appeared.
I am running six wheeled trucks, and the problem appears when the lead wheel of the lead truck crosses the frog. Since these are insulated (dead) frogs, I am wondering how best to power them, in place, since they are already mounted.
Can I solder a wire to the frog, and use the Tortoise contacts to power it? Are the metal frogs made of Nickle silver or "pot metal?" I have the ability to drill through the roadbed and bench work.
Atlas frogs at one time were higher than the adjoining rail, which would cause locomotive wheels to be lifted off the rail and the loco would stop. The solution was to sand or file down the height of the Atlas plastic frog.
The OP may have some of these turnouts on his layout.
Maybe something from Proto87 would help.
http://www.proto87.com/
Or maybe Fast Tracks
http://www.handlaidtrack.com/
South Penn
The OP says that he has older Atlas turnouts with plastic frogs, so if that is the case, then the frogs are dead and not the cause of the shorts. He also says that the gaps between the frog rails are very wide which, if true, would rule out wheel flanges cause the shorts when touching rails of opposite polarity because that only occurs where the gaps are too narrow. So, who knows what the problem is unless and until we get further info from the OP.
Rich
Alton Junction
Cutting new gaps further from the one's that are there won't work...you would have to cut through the gaps that are there first, because Atlas turnouts are Jumpered under the unpowered metal frog, on the straight and diverging route, they don't rely on the points for power past the frog.
Take Care!
Frank
mobilman44These had the opposing rails coming extremely close to one another at the point of the frog. The slightest, momentary touch of both rails by a loco wheel shut down the DCC.
If that is the problem, the solution is simple, Cut the rails leaving the frog further from the frog with your motor tool. 1/4 to 1/2 inch should do it, ad if your locomotive trucks can bridge the gap, all well and good. If not, wire the two metal stubs together and bower them from the tortoise or other contrivance.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
It is important to know the specific Atlas turnout.Customline 4, Customline 3, snap switches, or the older switches with the folded metal points? The newer CL4 switches are really good, The customline 3s will after a while need jumper wires between the point and closure rails to avoid "dead" closure rails, and we have found the really old Atlas switches will have shorts on the convergent side of the frogs. As others have said..Atlas switches do sometimes have "humpy" frog which lift the rails up and cause loss of contact. Shorting on the divergent side of the frog doesn't exist on our Atlas switches which range from really old to Customline 4s. If they really are shorting you can file away outer edge of the diverging rails and fill with expoxy...and you can even put an automobile light bulb in one of the power feeds which should/might allow you to "ride over" the short.
George T.
Hi,
To clarify, the oldest #4 & 6s I had were bought in the mid 1970s. These had the opposing rails coming extremely close to one another at the point of the frog. The slightest, momentary touch of both rails by a loco wheel shut down the DCC.
In comparing these older turnouts with more recent ones, the problem was fairly obvious. I confess it took me awhile to figure it out, however.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
RicZDead frogs shouldn't bother 6-wheeled trucks.
Atlas frog castings that sit too high can cause the entire side of the truck to lift off the live rails enough to interrupt electrical flow. It's potentially worse with three axles since the center wheel can be pushed up and lift the others with it. If the point rail is also dead due to faulty contact, the loco will stop. A two axle truck is more likely to just rotate so at least one set of wheels will remain in contact with the rails.
[quote user="richhotrain"]
mobilman44 Question for the OP......... when were these turnouts bought/made? In building my current layout, the turnouts that were Atlas #4 and #6 which I had purchased over many decades. In fact, I found I had 4 generations of them. Well, they all worked fine on the DC layout (from whence they came), but some shorted at the frogs when I was putting in the DCC layout. Turns out wheels were touching both rails where they come to a point at the frog. The sensitive DCC shut down the locos, while the "not so sensitive" DC did not. I found that this only applied to the oldest generation of the turnouts, and of course did not end up using them.
Question for the OP......... when were these turnouts bought/made?
In building my current layout, the turnouts that were Atlas #4 and #6 which I had purchased over many decades. In fact, I found I had 4 generations of them. Well, they all worked fine on the DC layout (from whence they came), but some shorted at the frogs when I was putting in the DCC layout.
Turns out wheels were touching both rails where they come to a point at the frog. The sensitive DCC shut down the locos, while the "not so sensitive" DC did not. I found that this only applied to the oldest generation of the turnouts, and of course did not end up using them.
Perhaps the oldest generation of Atlas turnouts exhibited that fault, but I started purchasing Atlas Custom Line Code 83 and Code 100 turnouts in early 2004 and none of them short at the frog where the frog rails converge.
richhotrain mobilman44 Question for the OP......... when were these turnouts bought/made? In building my current layout, the turnouts that were Atlas #4 and #6 which I had purchased over many decades. In fact, I found I had 4 generations of them. Well, they all worked fine on the DC layout (from whence they came), but some shorted at the frogs when I was putting in the DCC layout. Turns out wheels were touching both rails where they come to a point at the frog. The sensitive DCC shut down the locos, while the "not so sensitive" DC did not. I found that this only applied to the oldest generation of the turnouts, and of course did not end up using them. Perhaps the oldest generation of Atlas turnouts exhibited that fault, but I started purchasing Atlas Custom Line Code 83 and Code 100 turnouts in early 2004 and none of them short at the frog where the frog rails converge. Rich
RicZ Some additional info. All questioned turnouts are Atlas #6. locos are all diesels; Atlas, BLI and Proto. Proble only occurs as the trucks pass over the frog. RicZ
Some additional info. All questioned turnouts are Atlas #6. locos are all diesels; Atlas, BLI and Proto. Proble only occurs as the trucks pass over the frog.
I did not know that the OP posted this.....but I still have my doubts about the wheels bridging the rails......why don't mine do that? Have over 45 of them... had trouble with a BLI SW7 with sound always stalling on any turnout, but it was the engine...not the turnout.
Surely more info is needed from the OP......we're just pulling at straws here. How many engines do that? All or just one? Does the engine have both trucks picking up power? What kind is it? Lift one truck off the rails with power on....can You do that to both trucks? And quite a few more.
I have some Atlas #6 customline turnouts from the early 80's on my layout, about the only thing they changed over the yrs. really noticeable were to replace the rivets at the points. I have never had any problem's with wheels bridging rails and creating shorts and I still run Athearn BB's with sintered wheels...I've had to make the guard rail gap larger, but that's it. I also run DCC with sound engines all over the layout...real Shinohara 5 1/2's, Atlas #4's and #6's and they all work fine. Something else is going on with the OP's turnouts or engine.
Shorts in your frogs is better that frogs in ... ....
Oh Noes, Mr. LION! you couldn't resis that no could you.
zstripe richhotrain RicZ Pretty sure it is the divergent rail gap since it is very short. DCC sound Locos restart immediately after a short jerky pause. Just my .....I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails. Take Care! Frank BTW: Rob Spangler, has the same thought!
richhotrain RicZ Pretty sure it is the divergent rail gap since it is very short. DCC sound Locos restart immediately after a short jerky pause.
Just my .....I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails.
BTW: Rob Spangler, has the same thought!