That's actually Wayne's photo of a real railroad track. Mine ballast is nowhere near that discolored.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain mlehman Not sure if when people refer to the tubes whether you're talking the color temp/CRI or a more likely culprit, UV. Some tubes give off considerable UV. Mike, when my cat gets off my lap, I will go downstairs and check the brand of fluorescent bulbs. I have 11 fixtures with 2 tubes in each. They are all the same brand. Rich
mlehman Not sure if when people refer to the tubes whether you're talking the color temp/CRI or a more likely culprit, UV. Some tubes give off considerable UV.
Not sure if when people refer to the tubes whether you're talking the color temp/CRI or a more likely culprit, UV. Some tubes give off considerable UV.
Mike, when my cat gets off my lap, I will go downstairs and check the brand of fluorescent bulbs. I have 11 fixtures with 2 tubes in each. They are all the same brand.
Here is a photo of the discolored ballast with some newly laid ballast as contrast. Ballast repair still in process.
richhotrain That's actually Wayne's photo of a real railroad track. Mine ballast is nowhere near that discolored. Rich
Dah!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Rich,
Interesting picture. Was any of the ballast installed at times when you were having humidity issues? That could account for how what I noticed in the bottle happening on the layout itself.
I wonder if airbrushing a white or other light colored wash over it would solve this if it's simply a cosmetic issue?
I did some looking around and couldn't find anything specific on UV output on those lamps. One thing I was reminded of those was that the light from every tube actually starts off as UV. That UV light then hits the coating inside the tube wall. It both glows to emit light and protects from the direct rays of UV inside. I cam across a webpage with more discussion of this and a picture an uncoated UV generating tube, basically clear glass, labeled "Do Not Look Directly at It..."
http://nemesis.lonestar.org/reference/electricity/fluorescent/lamps.html
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman Rich, Interesting picture. Was any of the ballast installed at times when you were having humidity issues? That could account for how what I noticed in the bottle happening on the layout itself.
OK, pinging your memory some more (which is a bit unfair, I know, considering my own struggles with memory), is the discolored ballast attribuatble to a particular batch/bottle of matte medium? You sounded like it all went down in a certain time span, but that could mean multiple bottles from multiple sources. But maybe not. If you pretty sure you were using matte medium that all come from the same big bottle, that would be suggestive of it being the source of the issue, regardless of if environmental factors came into play.
Mike, the only thing worse than a poor memory is being anal. I plead guilty to the latter. I keep all of my receipts on purchases relating to the hobby.
At the time that I did my ballasting, I bought a one gallon plastic container of Liquitex Matte Medium from Mister Art and I followed up with another one gallon of the same product. I kept the containers tightly sealed between uses, so I cannot imagine that the matte medium got contaminated.
I guess that the discoloring will remain a mystery. No one else seems to have had an experience similar to mine.
I think everyone's overlooking the obvious answer.
The lower brain displays similar discoloration to your ballast. Coincidence?
Rob Spangler
Liquidtex is generally good stuff and what I generally use. On the other hand, IIRC that was what ended up discolored after sitting. Not going to hold that against them, considering the long storage of a little leftover was where I noticed the ickiness. That said, if yours showed no discoloring, whatever was growing in mine (or deteriorating maybe) wasn't obvious to you.
Assuming my issue was some sort of mold or mildew, it's possible the spores were always present and waiting on the right conditions to bloom. I wouldn't think if the stuff looked good and you applied it that it would stay moist enough long enough to grow anything. Certainly wherever else the bottle was applied to before the long storage revealed the problem didn't show up as discolored ballast...
So the mystery deepens. Maybe Rob has a point about those nasty old chemtrails.
Well Matte Medium is Organic....so anything is possible when it comes to contamination. I believe thinned with Alcohol would have controlled that contamination. That is only My opinion, of course.
Take Care!
Frank
Since there is mostly speculation as to the cause, but most centers around organic growth, I'd suggest getting a humidistat and check the humidity. Since a sump pump is necessary it follows that moisture is present.
There is also another question. What can be done to make the existing ballast presentable?
Just my Worth
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
I tried tonight to see if I could remove the discoloration with alcohol or lacquer thinner but no luck. I may try acetone tomorrow.
If you're concerned about stuff growing in your ballast, get out the weed sprayer car :
If you don't have a weed sprayer car, I'd skip the acetone and instead use a mixture of household bleach and tap water. Bleach will kill mould, but I've read that it works better when mixed with a little water. Once you've sprayed the area, allow it to dry before touching it, as it may temporarily loosen the ballast.
Wayne
I started Googling late last night to see what I could find out about discoloring of matte medium, and I came across some commentary on the Liquitex web site.
There is a phenomenom called Substrate Induced Discoloration (SID). It essentially applies to the surface that is painted upon by artists, but I now have to wonder if this is what I am experiencing on my ballasted track.
To paraphrase the Liquitex web site on SID, when acrylic mediums are used as a size for some primed or unprimed cotton, linen, wood or hardboard, the water content may draw impurities out of the support as it dries. A yellow or brown discoloration in the medium may occur over time. It will only be noticeable in areas that are left unpainted. It occurs with all acrylic mediums currently used by major fine art paint manufacturers. Washing the canvas before use can greatly decrease or eliminate SID. It is not a problem if the mediums are mixed with paint or painted over.
The amount of discoloration in the acrylic medium will vary depending upon:
1. Quality of the acrylic medium. The unique resin formulation used in all Liquitex® paints and mediums is clear, flexible and non-yellowing.
2. Thickness of the medium application. Gel mediums are more susceptible to SID than fluid mediums. They are thicker, contain more water and take longer to dry.
3. Substrate used. Different surfaces contain different colorants and contaminants.
What do you all make of this?
Do you truly feel this discoloration is a problem? Personally, I don't think I would spend much time worrying about it. The color of the ballast in the photo (of your real track) looks fine to me. If the discoloration was to be blaze orange or some other bright color, then I would be concerened.
I must not be seeing the actual problem, as no other poster to this thread has felt this to be a non-issue, like I have. In fact, I think Rich is pulling our collective legs with a belated April Fools Joke!
Mark,
Well beauty, art, and model railroading are in the eye of the beholder. That pic did look kinda ugly -- to me.
I think you've found the answer, personally. That sounds like what you're seeing and straight from the horse's mouth. At least you know you're not alone if it merits mention by the mfg. No one else has mentioned having the issue, but let's give this thread a few months to percolate and it wouldn't surprise me if we find other cases.
It's also the sort of thing you'd probably never notice with anything but lightly colored ballasts.
To a certain degree, Mark does have a point. And I did mention maybe trying to treat it with a wash to see if that helps the discoloration. On the other hand, this is the sort of things those in the hobby try to make a certain way to please what we believe is the right way to depict something -- so it's a little irritating when this happens. At least we know there's a reason other than mold, which is good as paranoid as some folks are about that.
Rich, can you describe what's under your ballast? If it's picking stuff up from the substrate then it would be beneficial to know - foam, wood, paint, sealant/stain, homasote...
Carnegie Falls Rich, can you describe what's under your ballast? If it's picking stuff up from the substrate then it would be beneficial to know - foam, wood, paint, sealant/stain, homasote...
mlehman And I did mention maybe trying to treat it with a wash to see if that helps the discoloration.
And I did mention maybe trying to treat it with a wash to see if that helps the discoloration.
richhotrain Carnegie Falls Rich, can you describe what's under your ballast? If it's picking stuff up from the substrate then it would be beneficial to know - foam, wood, paint, sealant/stain, homasote... The ballasted track sits on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed which sits on top of 1/2" plywood. Rich
The ballasted track sits on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed which sits on top of 1/2" plywood.
The paragrph you copied said that washing the substrate first usually prevents most discoloration.
I think it means that the MM is picking up any dust or other particles that accumulated during the time between laying the track and installing ballast.
If there has been alot of time between laying the track and ballasting (about 95% of model railroads I assume) that tells me we should wash the track-on-roadbed first to get the dust off right before we ballast.
I assume its the dust, and not anything about WS foam and would happen no matter what kind of roadbed was used.
How it can be fixed now? I don't know. I agree though, the yellowish color is kind of the wrong color to fade to. Simply getting darker or lighter would have been better.
EDIT: To fix the color, you could try to lay a thin coat of new ballast over the existing layers. We see only the top layer anyway. And secure it with white glue mixture this time.
- Douglas
I read the exact same article You described, two days ago.
Were it Me......I would just air-brush right over the discolored area with solvent base paint and forget about it......no air brush? Use a flat bristle 1/2 inch artist brush and put it on just like ballast glue and also forget about it. It's not like we are trying to fix a Rembrandt....time to move on as Steven would say. LOL.
Frank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top?
I am trying to resolve my problem by removing the discoloring if possible, not just cover up the problem by painting over it. That's why I am asking for advice, not criticism.
Sorry if I am taking up your valuable time.
zstripeI'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper.
Woodland Scenic Cement is eccentialy the same as matte medium.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Mentioned it passing somewhere on page one. easier to repeat than dig for. I was thinking that you could thin down some paint and airbrush it over the ballast that's discolored. You wouldn't want it so it covers, just so it tints and evern then not enough to make it look even. So it could be a very thin wash and repeat if not enough after it dired and you've had a chance to evaluate.
On the other hand, not sure if this would result in a decent appearance. Seems easier than redoing a lot of ballast, though, so maybe worth a try.
If you want something premixed that would work, I've been using Testors CreateFX Acrylic Wash. The Basswood would be close tgo what you have, but there are several other shades that are close you might consider since you're looking at what you have and I only have a pic to go by. The stuff is nice, but not cheap. Was $6.49 at HL, but didn't seel, so were blowing it out at half off or better a few months ago. I picked up some and really like it, as they have it just right as it comes from tfhe bottle. I use a brush to apply, but it woiuld spray easily. Could also be diluted even further.
Try spraying the surface with Lysol, it may kill the mold and is a little safer than bleach.
Also matte medium has talc in it, it may be the talc coming out.
richhotrainFrank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top?
Anything You say!
I wasn't trying to critisise....only to get You out of Your sometimes overthinking mode.
I remain, Frank
modelmaker51 zstripe I'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper. Woodland Scenic Cement is eccentialy the same as matte medium.
zstripe I'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper.
Woodlands Scenic cement is a water based adhesive, seals product on layout, dries to matte finish (flat).
Matte Medium, is useful for exstending colors, (Artist) decreasing gloss and increasing film integrity. It is not an adhesive,there's a difference.
LOL, They even smell totally different.
zstripe richhotrain Frank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top? Anything You say! I wasn't trying to critisise....only to get You out of Your sometimes overthinking mode. Take Care! I remain, Frank
richhotrain Frank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top?
It isn't what I say, it is what the forum administrator deems to be relevant content as opposed to repetitive comment. Last I checked, you were neither the moderator nor the forum administrator. So, I don't think that it is up to you to decide when it is time to move on.
If this thread bothers you so much, contact Steven Otte and ask him to review it. Meanwhile, I am looking for answers, and the helpful forum members still seem willing to provide help, and I appreciate that.