Is it possible to add interest to the layout by taking advantage of the discoloration through creating a ballast repair scene?
Stage a couple ballast hoppers on a nearby spur, set up a slow order zone, and pry up some so it looks like it is being replaced?
Rich,
Ive seen this happen to other layouts/module sets. You can re-ballast the section (12" to the scale foot railroads do it from time to time), it can be time consuming, but it would add a bit of realism to your model railroad.
$0.02
Andrew
mlehman Ricky, I'm thinking that it's not the colorant in the ballast leaching out. WS must use something rather permanent, or we'd be seeing a LOT of this. Plus, I think Rich was fairly certain this took place long after the matte medium dried. Certainly, if you were going to get any color to bleed from the ballast, this would happen pretty soon after its bonded. Once the matter medium is dry, there's nothing to mobilize the color from the ballast. Which is not to say there may not be some other chemical reaction going on, but not the dye or whatever WS uses to add the color to ballast.
Ricky,
I'm thinking that it's not the colorant in the ballast leaching out. WS must use something rather permanent, or we'd be seeing a LOT of this. Plus, I think Rich was fairly certain this took place long after the matte medium dried. Certainly, if you were going to get any color to bleed from the ballast, this would happen pretty soon after its bonded. Once the matter medium is dry, there's nothing to mobilize the color from the ballast. Which is not to say there may not be some other chemical reaction going on, but not the dye or whatever WS uses to add the color to ballast.
I have thrown my hands up in the air on this one.
It is also interesting to me that this discoloration has not taken place over the entire length of the layout, just in a 4 to 6 foot section.
Rich
Alton Junction
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Note of interest: Could the discoloration be caused by the dye in the WS ballast coming out/off when the matte medium was applied? Looks to be a brown discoloration, and the WS ballast is made from ground up shells, right?
Only asking because my display shelf, and a section of my yard that are ballasted, (had not finished scenery yet, now rebuilding a large portion of the layout so that was put on hold for now) using WS cement (aka matte medium) did not discolor in the last 4 years.... But I also used real rock ballast, and on top of basswood or plywood, topped with cork. Slightly differed from you, but, if it was the plywood reacting with the matte medium.... (Now, my handlaid segment, that has real wood ties, the stain did run, but, that happens on real tracks too, so I thought no big deal.)
But, is it at all possible that it is the actual ballast discoloring the matte medium? Ground up shells could have been brown(ish) originally, and dyed other colors, therefore, you dilute the dye, you see the underlying color, right?
Just a thought....
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Why not try a grey wash of your choice and you may be surprised. What have you got to loose.
I have already given away my 2 cent's worth so take this advice for what it cost you.
And Good Luck
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Even though the Mfger feels nothing can be done, that would not stop me from trying. Someone suggested Bleach, that just seemed like it would be worth a try, to me.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I received a reply from Liquitex regarding the possibility of removing the discoloration.
Unfortunately, my thought is no, it cannot be removed. Once the discoloration is in the medium and the medium cannot be removed, it is permanent discoloration on the surface.
So, I have no choice but to live with the problem or remove and replace the ballast in the affected section of my layout.
I appreciate all of the replies from those who were sincerely interested in trying to help me solve this problem.
zstripe modelmaker51 zstripe I'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper. Matte Medium, is useful for exstending colors, (Artist) decreasing gloss and increasing film integrity. It is not an adhesive,there's a difference. LOL, They even smell totally different. Take Care! Frank
modelmaker51 zstripe I'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper.
zstripe I'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper.
Matte Medium, is useful for exstending colors, (Artist) decreasing gloss and increasing film integrity. It is not an adhesive,there's a difference.
LOL, They even smell totally different.
Take Care!
Frank
Matte medium is both an extender and a binder. Artists use it to extend their paints, but another common use of matte medium is as an adhesive.
richhotrain Last I checked, you were neither the moderator nor the forum administrator. So, I don't think that it is up to you to decide when it is time to move on.
I believe it can be said of You also when You complained of a thread about where the Young people have gone. What I said was in jest, You meant what You said about the thread should be locked.
End Of no-where conversation.
Good luck with Your ballast.
I just sent an email to Liquitex asking if they have a solution to remove the discoloration. I will let you all know the nature of their reply.
Richhotrains,
I hope my opinion on what I see as a non-issue over the discoloration of your ballast isn't a factor in what appears to be a rancorous turn taken by this thread. I can see no reason that moderation should step in to close this thread! Very good people are attempting to help remedy this problem!
Wishing you the best for the resolution of your problem!
Mark
zstripe richhotrain Frank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top? Anything You say! I wasn't trying to critisise....only to get You out of Your sometimes overthinking mode. Take Care! I remain, Frank
richhotrain Frank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top?
Anything You say!
I wasn't trying to critisise....only to get You out of Your sometimes overthinking mode.
I remain, Frank
It isn't what I say, it is what the forum administrator deems to be relevant content as opposed to repetitive comment. Last I checked, you were neither the moderator nor the forum administrator. So, I don't think that it is up to you to decide when it is time to move on.
If this thread bothers you so much, contact Steven Otte and ask him to review it. Meanwhile, I am looking for answers, and the helpful forum members still seem willing to provide help, and I appreciate that.
modelmaker51 zstripe I'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper. Woodland Scenic Cement is eccentialy the same as matte medium.
Woodland Scenic Cement is eccentialy the same as matte medium.
Woodlands Scenic cement is a water based adhesive, seals product on layout, dries to matte finish (flat).
richhotrainFrank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top?
Try spraying the surface with Lysol, it may kill the mold and is a little safer than bleach.
Also matte medium has talc in it, it may be the talc coming out.
richhotrain Carnegie Falls Rich, can you describe what's under your ballast? If it's picking stuff up from the substrate then it would be beneficial to know - foam, wood, paint, sealant/stain, homasote... The ballasted track sits on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed which sits on top of 1/2" plywood. Rich
Carnegie Falls Rich, can you describe what's under your ballast? If it's picking stuff up from the substrate then it would be beneficial to know - foam, wood, paint, sealant/stain, homasote...
Rich, can you describe what's under your ballast? If it's picking stuff up from the substrate then it would be beneficial to know - foam, wood, paint, sealant/stain, homasote...
The ballasted track sits on Woodland Scenics foam roadbed which sits on top of 1/2" plywood.
Mentioned it passing somewhere on page one. easier to repeat than dig for. I was thinking that you could thin down some paint and airbrush it over the ballast that's discolored. You wouldn't want it so it covers, just so it tints and evern then not enough to make it look even. So it could be a very thin wash and repeat if not enough after it dired and you've had a chance to evaluate.
On the other hand, not sure if this would result in a decent appearance. Seems easier than redoing a lot of ballast, though, so maybe worth a try.
If you want something premixed that would work, I've been using Testors CreateFX Acrylic Wash. The Basswood would be close tgo what you have, but there are several other shades that are close you might consider since you're looking at what you have and I only have a pic to go by. The stuff is nice, but not cheap. Was $6.49 at HL, but didn't seel, so were blowing it out at half off or better a few months ago. I picked up some and really like it, as they have it just right as it comes from tfhe bottle. I use a brush to apply, but it woiuld spray easily. Could also be diluted even further.
zstripeI'm sorry.... Woodland scenic's ballast cement and denatured alcohol mix. Dries pretty quick, compared to other ways and is solid. Can be removed very quickly with plain denatured alcohol. I use the denatured alcohol a lot, use it on all the Tamiya acrylic's that I air brush with so I get it by the gal. sizes, which are cheaper.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Frank, if it's time to move on, why post another reply and bump the thread to the top?
I am trying to resolve my problem by removing the discoloring if possible, not just cover up the problem by painting over it. That's why I am asking for advice, not criticism.
Sorry if I am taking up your valuable time.
I read the exact same article You described, two days ago.
Were it Me......I would just air-brush right over the discolored area with solvent base paint and forget about it......no air brush? Use a flat bristle 1/2 inch artist brush and put it on just like ballast glue and also forget about it. It's not like we are trying to fix a Rembrandt....time to move on as Steven would say. LOL.
The paragrph you copied said that washing the substrate first usually prevents most discoloration.
I think it means that the MM is picking up any dust or other particles that accumulated during the time between laying the track and installing ballast.
If there has been alot of time between laying the track and ballasting (about 95% of model railroads I assume) that tells me we should wash the track-on-roadbed first to get the dust off right before we ballast.
I assume its the dust, and not anything about WS foam and would happen no matter what kind of roadbed was used.
How it can be fixed now? I don't know. I agree though, the yellowish color is kind of the wrong color to fade to. Simply getting darker or lighter would have been better.
EDIT: To fix the color, you could try to lay a thin coat of new ballast over the existing layers. We see only the top layer anyway. And secure it with white glue mixture this time.
- Douglas
mlehman And I did mention maybe trying to treat it with a wash to see if that helps the discoloration.
And I did mention maybe trying to treat it with a wash to see if that helps the discoloration.
Mark,
Well beauty, art, and model railroading are in the eye of the beholder. That pic did look kinda ugly -- to me.
I think you've found the answer, personally. That sounds like what you're seeing and straight from the horse's mouth. At least you know you're not alone if it merits mention by the mfg. No one else has mentioned having the issue, but let's give this thread a few months to percolate and it wouldn't surprise me if we find other cases.
It's also the sort of thing you'd probably never notice with anything but lightly colored ballasts.
To a certain degree, Mark does have a point. And I did mention maybe trying to treat it with a wash to see if that helps the discoloration. On the other hand, this is the sort of things those in the hobby try to make a certain way to please what we believe is the right way to depict something -- so it's a little irritating when this happens. At least we know there's a reason other than mold, which is good as paranoid as some folks are about that.
Do you truly feel this discoloration is a problem? Personally, I don't think I would spend much time worrying about it. The color of the ballast in the photo (of your real track) looks fine to me. If the discoloration was to be blaze orange or some other bright color, then I would be concerened.
I must not be seeing the actual problem, as no other poster to this thread has felt this to be a non-issue, like I have. In fact, I think Rich is pulling our collective legs with a belated April Fools Joke!
I started Googling late last night to see what I could find out about discoloring of matte medium, and I came across some commentary on the Liquitex web site.
There is a phenomenom called Substrate Induced Discoloration (SID). It essentially applies to the surface that is painted upon by artists, but I now have to wonder if this is what I am experiencing on my ballasted track.
To paraphrase the Liquitex web site on SID, when acrylic mediums are used as a size for some primed or unprimed cotton, linen, wood or hardboard, the water content may draw impurities out of the support as it dries. A yellow or brown discoloration in the medium may occur over time. It will only be noticeable in areas that are left unpainted. It occurs with all acrylic mediums currently used by major fine art paint manufacturers. Washing the canvas before use can greatly decrease or eliminate SID. It is not a problem if the mediums are mixed with paint or painted over.
The amount of discoloration in the acrylic medium will vary depending upon:
1. Quality of the acrylic medium. The unique resin formulation used in all Liquitex® paints and mediums is clear, flexible and non-yellowing.
2. Thickness of the medium application. Gel mediums are more susceptible to SID than fluid mediums. They are thicker, contain more water and take longer to dry.
3. Substrate used. Different surfaces contain different colorants and contaminants.
What do you all make of this?