RDG1519 On the Team Digital site. Look on the right column. You will see "Signals" and than "more Signals" click this one. Go to Southern Pacific ABS. I am not smart enough to figure out a direct link to this. Don't forget to look at Logic Rails description as well.
On the Team Digital site. Look on the right column. You will see "Signals" and than "more Signals" click this one. Go to Southern Pacific ABS. I am not smart enough to figure out a direct link to this. Don't forget to look at Logic Rails description as well.
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/
Rich
Alton Junction
I found the Team Digital we site earlier, but where on the site is there "some good technical and easily understood disciptions of ABS, CTC etc". Can you link to that info?
www.teamdigital1.com
www.logicrailtech.com
The guys at Logic Rail are also good on the explanations. This is the first time I understood that ABS on a single track main still requires train orders.
Dual track territory where each direction of traffic has ABS to show what is in the up coming blocks can also use an official timetable to convey right of use. For example a passenger line that runs on a timetable. The problem starts when you hve a piece of the main out of service and you route trains moving in one direction over trackage that is for opposing trackage.
RDG1519 If you go to the Team Digital website they have some good technical and easily understood disciptions of ABS, CTC etc. They have a paticularly good disciption of ABS systems used on single track scenarios. Search light , 3 Color "G", dwarf signals are also well descibed. I never really understood the search light signal aspects that are shown in my Reading Company book of rules until I studied the team digital website. Dwarf signals can also be considered as search light signals, etc.
If you go to the Team Digital website they have some good technical and easily understood disciptions of ABS, CTC etc. They have a paticularly good disciption of ABS systems used on single track scenarios. Search light , 3 Color "G", dwarf signals are also well descibed. I never really understood the search light signal aspects that are shown in my Reading Company book of rules until I studied the team digital website. Dwarf signals can also be considered as search light signals, etc.
A lot of good stuff here. If you go to the Team Digital website they have some good technical and easily understood disciptions of ABS, CTC etc. They have a paticularly good disciption of ABS systems used on single track scenarios. Search light , 3 Color "G", dwarf signals are also well descibed. I never really understood the search light signal aspects that are shown in my Reading Company book of rules until I studied the team digital website. Dwarf signals can also be considered as search light signals, etc.
They also make the signal controllers and block detectors I use. I use ATLAS HO scale "G" 3 color signals. These have a common cathode as opposed to common anode LEDs. Something else to keep in mind as you study signals and signal control systems
Hope some of this is helpful.
Dave, thanks again, very informative.
Maybe. Maybe not.
Prototypical answer.
Remember its ABS, if a train pulls up to a crossover the crossover should "always" be lined for straight away move. The crew should "never" find the crossover lined for crossover movement. If the train is going through a crosover they have a train order/track warrant that will tell them to run on the other main track, they will stop at the crossover, line the switches, make the crossover move. Stop. Line the switches back normal and then proceed.
I can't find an example of two main tracks ABS handy (it wasn't as common as double track). On double track ABS you might only have two signals (or none).
Model answer.
That's typically what people do. They treat the signals like CTC.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Thanks, Dave, for that explanation.
So, I have a two main track ABS.
And, even though I am only using signals for turnout indication, I should have signals facing both directions for crossovers connecting the two mainline tracks.
richhotrainDave, I am not sure that I know the difference between two main track ABS and double track ABS.
LION does not know either, but in some places you have a two track main line (double line) where each track is signaled for one direction, in which case a train running against the traffic would be "wrong railing". In the other situation you have a real two track main line with both lines signaled in both directions. In that case a train would not be said to be "wrong railing".
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Double track is signalled for movement with the current of traffic. On the eastward track, there are only signals for eastward movement. There are no signals for westward movement on the eastward track. Movement against the current of traffic was considered movement in "dark" territory.
Two main tracks are signalled in both directions on both tracks. It will have signals facing both directions and movement is in block territory on both main tracks.
Double track was extremely common in the US up into the 1960's and 1970's when the railroads converted the double track ABS to two main track CTC.
CTC is different than ABS in the number of signals and thier placement. In CTC the dispatcher controls the signals and the switches at major locations. In ABS all the switches are hand operated and the signals are automatic and not "controlled". At the end of a siding in CTC there will be 3 signals. One on each track leading into the switch. At the end of a siding in ABS there will be just two signals, both beyond the points of the switch on the single track main, one for each direction. There will be no signal "in the siding". In CTC the signals control the movement over the switch and into the block beyond, in ABS the signals control movement into the block beyond (all movements over the switch are in hand throw control).
Double track ABS is a train moving machine, the trains flow as fast as their speed restrictions will allow. That is until something happens or a train stops. Then it becomes very cumbersome to operate the single track around the problem. That's why double track has center sidings but two main track CTC tends not to. When I worked in OpCon for the UP Northern region we had a jornal failure on a westward train about 100 miles west of Fremont, NE. I had just started on that territory and the old heads told me to call the CNW ASAP and shut off the trains at Fremont. Since I had never worked on double track I couldn't understand why, but sure enough within an hour or two, things were backing up for 50 miles behind the incident.
dehusman Are you modeling two main track ABS, two main track CTC or double track ABS? Different answer for the type of authority you are using on the main track. Most modelers only know about CTC and so most answers you will get are CTC answers.
Are you modeling two main track ABS, two main track CTC or double track ABS? Different answer for the type of authority you are using on the main track. Most modelers only know about CTC and so most answers you will get are CTC answers.
But my layout follows the C&NW double mainline protocol where trains on the outer mainline track run counter clock wise and trains on the inner mainline track run clock wise.
There are several crossover on the layout, permitting outer mainline track trains to reach yards and sidings inside of the inner mainline track.
I use 2-head search light signals on the mainline tracks at all crossings as simple turnout indications.
Should I be using two search light signals instead of one so that the signal lights can be seen from either direction?
How would the prototype deal with this situation?
Hi NILE
Sounds like a signal cabin might be needed as well Atlas make a nice one.
also a large or medium relay shed as well not sure who does those
Are you able to post a track diagram of the area you wish to signal.
I am thinking that perhaps the siding could have a switch lock ground thow with point indicator I have seen a referance to a detail casting for the switch lock somewhere.
signals go in front of and a short distance from the switches as this is part of the hazard the trains are being protected from.
Dwarf signals usualy control a switching move. so can be used in fully signaled territory as well as from non signaled to signaled area, opperational needs are what govern which and how many signals are used.
regards John
I used Tomar Ind. signals. My layout is a small "L" shaped "dog bone", with about a 50' continuous run single track main line, and one passing siding that also serves as access to my small yard, and industrial tracks. I used a total of 6 signals, with 8 signal heads, some with "snow hoods" to represent a change to a "newer" style. I set up the signals as the prototype in my area does, SOO/WC/CN. All my turn outs are hand throws, I didn't use any detection circuitry, and I power each head with a rotary switch. In the future, I want to add some dwarf signals on the yard and industrial tracks, and a couple of dwarf signals on the passing siding, showing position of the turn outs.
If I was to build a bigger, and more complex lay out, I would use the dectection and automated circuitry devises that control the signals, but for now, the rotary switches work just fine.
Adding signals is a great extra detail that adds to the overall effect.
Mike.
My You Tube
NILE I have been reading a lot about signals over the holidays and it basicailly sounds like I can do whatever I want. All the railroads seem to have different rules and different types of signals, although modern ones seem to be more standardized.
I have been reading a lot about signals over the holidays and it basicailly sounds like I can do whatever I want. All the railroads seem to have different rules and different types of signals, although modern ones seem to be more standardized.
Obviously you can do whatever you want, but there actually is less variation on railroad signals that it seems. There are two basic types of prototype signals, route signals and speed signals. If the railroad has "diverging" aspects (approach diverging) then its a route road and if it doesn't and has all speed aspects (approach medium) its a speed road. Even then the net result of what the railroad is doing is essentially the same, its just there is a different arrangements of lights and different name. The intent of what they are telling the train to do is more or less the same. Whether its approach diverging or approach medium, the train is being told to slow down through turnouts or switches and be prepared to stop at the next signal. Same thing.
The multiple signal arrangements come from not all signals needing to display the same number of aspects. A signal at a major interlocking might need to display 10 aspects while a signal a basic one switch control point might only need to display 5. The major point might need 3 heads to display all of its aspects and the basic point might only need two. Both can display approach, its the same signal with the same indication, but there have to be two different aspects because one signal has 2 heads and the other 3.
I have double main line with two double crossovers and an interchange for the branch line. The crossovers are not used as part of the interchange, and the interchange does have a sideing. So if I were to use modern BLMA signals, or search lights... where do I place them? Do they go before the turnouts (crossovers) or after?
Basically the way CTC works is that there is a "control point" that is a collection of switches that the dispatcher's control and there is a signal on each track controlling entrance to that control point. In most cases you won't get good advice on complicated track arrangements unless you provide a drawing.
A plain jane universal crossover on two main track CTC will have 4 signals governing access to the control point. each main track there will be a signal for a train approaching the crossovers. Each signal would have at least two heads with 3 colors on the top and 2 or 3 colors on the bottom. On a real signal system each control point is tied into the previous 2 or 3 signals. If main track is 50+ mph and the signal at the crossover displays stop, the previous signal would display approach, the next signal before would display advance approach and the signal before that would display clear. So a train approaching the stop signal would see clear, then advance approach then approach then stop. Each signal would be about 1-2 miles (1-2 train lengths) apart.
I like dwarf signals too, and would like to use some. I thought those were used when going from an unsignaled area, like a yard, to a signaled area. However, this month's MODEL RAILROADER has an article where the author uses dwarfs to protect the turnouts. Thoughts?
Many model railroaders I have seen have decided that actual block systems signals are too expensive, complicated and they don't have enough room to make them work right (4-8 train lengths between control points), so what they do is just just signals a switch indicators, which is fine. Just realize that it isn't "prototypical" directly so the how would the railroad do this or what signal would the railroad use questions may not be relevant, it more of a how should I do this on my railroad.
What companies sell signal control systems? I don't want anything to cosmic but something with realistic fuctionality.
Be careful what you ask for. "Realistic functionality" is a really big bite and involved a whole lot of stuff that you don't need if all you want is to indicate whether a switch is normal or reverse direction. A $2 micro switch from Radio Shack (or $.50 microswitch from Amazon) will do that just as well.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brian-Solomon-Railroad-Signaling-2010-New-Trade-Paper-Paperback-/361083375396?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item54123f0f24
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
NILE I have been modeling for a long time and have a vast collection of HO engines, rolling stock, passenger cars, vehicles, and some buildings. My current layout is an around the room double main line with a branch junction at the passenger station. It is about 17' x 12' not includeing the staging yard which is where the branch line goes to. I would like to start modeling signals. I am looking at both BLMA and NJInternational brands, I don't care about specific type as it applies to authenticity of the railroad. I want something modern for the mainline and older for the branch line. I might even have just one single search light protecting the junction for the branch. How do I get started? I would like the signals to have some purpose, but not to detailed that I spend all the time worried about signals being correct and not operating trains. Can signals be on a curve? I have 27" and 32" radius curves which take of up a lot of space. If on the curve, are they on the inside and facing a little inwards so the train crew can see them from a distance? I model GTW and BN, with some other roads for run through power. Any help is appreciated, thanks and Merry Christmas.
I have been modeling for a long time and have a vast collection of HO engines, rolling stock, passenger cars, vehicles, and some buildings. My current layout is an around the room double main line with a branch junction at the passenger station. It is about 17' x 12' not includeing the staging yard which is where the branch line goes to.
I would like to start modeling signals. I am looking at both BLMA and NJInternational brands, I don't care about specific type as it applies to authenticity of the railroad. I want something modern for the mainline and older for the branch line. I might even have just one single search light protecting the junction for the branch.
How do I get started? I would like the signals to have some purpose, but not to detailed that I spend all the time worried about signals being correct and not operating trains. Can signals be on a curve? I have 27" and 32" radius curves which take of up a lot of space. If on the curve, are they on the inside and facing a little inwards so the train crew can see them from a distance?
I model GTW and BN, with some other roads for run through power. Any help is appreciated, thanks and Merry Christmas.
First off you should have concidered signals at the planning stage particularly since you want them to have a purpose other than just looking good.
As some form of interlocking to prevent opposing signals and points being set different to signals, oh and an auto stop for the trains is a good idea.
On the full size railways signals are where ever they are required if on a curve the heads are angled to give maximum warning to the driver so he has a chance to obey the signal.
Some railroads have there signals on the LHS and some on the RHS
Which ever is the case for the railroads you are interested in is the general rule for that line but there are exeptions it all comes down to signal sighting so some are short, some are very tall with with the same indications top and bottom this is done to help with a viual obstruction say a bridge.
It is quite OK to mix old and new signals as when a brand new instalation is done
The latest tech often goes in even when the rest of the section is old tech.
traffic density might have increased or a new junction to serve a new customer may have been built.
As long as it all makes sense you can do what you like.
Your branch junction will have at least three signals one protecting the main line
a two headed junction signal that lets you on to the branch it also indicates which way the route is set and the third signal is on the main to protect the branch line
from the main line trains in the trailing direction.
Remember you have up and down trains on the mainline and trains on and off the branch all of which have to be protected from each other.
You won't be able to do full signaling I don't know anyone with a big enough layout to do that, but a few well placed working signals that do more than look good can certainly portray the impression of a properly signaled railroad.
Nile, if you haven't seen it, BLMA's site has a nice, pretty thorough selection of signal circuitry systems and if you go to each, you'll get enough info. to blow your mind (unless you're already an electronics guy)!
Even though you would like to mix 'em up with different signal styles, roads and eras, if you ever want to have your friends come over to operate/switch cars, have meets, etc. it helps them to have the signals all the same design just as it did with old heads on the prototypes.
But sometimes on a layout, one's sense of aesthetics/design wins out because that's what tickles us or growing up, we wanted to "try everything".
I had the gracious help of a forum member to at least get me started by having my Tortoises show turnout throw direction/indications via a simple toggle switch. I'm thinking about a block/occupancy signal arrangment down the road but I have to study and save up-a lot.
I'm sure I'm going to have to have someone else wire in and install them for me when that time comes. I'm decent at every other level on the layout build and but electrical/electronics-I just don't seem to have inherited that gene.
Best of luck with your signaling project. Please let us know how it goes?
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Hi, Nile
There's another thread in General Discussion that has some additional signal info. I posted some photos of my installations there as well.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/243185.aspx
rogerhensley Ok, some say that you can't use turnouts for control of your signals. I do, and it is quite successful. Here is a shot of three signals all controlled by my turnout controls.
Ok, some say that you can't use turnouts for control of your signals. I do, and it is quite successful. Here is a shot of three signals all controlled by my turnout controls.
I agree whith you and do the same on my Nscale layout, this simplify many things.
On my layout the conductor follow his train and must obey to the signals, because they are tiny in Nscale big leds on the fascia reports the aspect of the signals, the position of the turnout also light block signal a few feet before and after the turnout on the main.
Turnout are controled whith Tortoise and Switchmaster motors which give contacts to relay or directly to the signals.
Adding signals to a model railroad should not be done "any way you like", but should be done with thought and planning.
1- Decide on what types of signals you want to use, and where they should go in different situations, and stick to that. Most RR's have their signals on the right, but some did have them on the left. Be consistent.
2- Look at other RR's and how they placed their signals in special situations that you may encounter on your layout.
3- Develop a signal plan.
4- Decide on how far you want to take your signal system. Do you want it all (CTC), or just turnout indications, or just block occupancy indications? (ABS).
5- Now you can decide on what equipment you will need to make your signal system work. Building a CTC system will most likely take a computer to control them. Some ABS type systems may not need a computer to work. Different manufacturers make different type systems, most of which all do the same job. Some are easy to understand and some are not. All have instruction manuals on-line that you can download and study before you make a purchase.
The link that I gave you in my previous post has a lot of information and other links that will answer the questions that you are asking.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
So I believe some sort of block signaling is what I would like to do. I have been reading a lot about signals over the holidays and it basicailly sounds like I can do whatever I want. All the railroads seem to have different rules and different types of signals, although modern ones seem to be more standardized. It does seem that if I want to have signals on the right side of the tracks for multiple tracks, then I need to have mulitple posts. Otherwise, I should put the signals overhead.
I appreciate everyones comments, I think I am getting closer to a plan.
Thanks again.
I love signals. So far, they are all simply turnout position indicators, driven by Tortoise or Peco machines, or by latching relays attached in parallel with Atlas machines.
This is an Oregon Rail Supply signal bridge, controlling two tracks from both directions.
As I recall, this bridge did not come with lights, so I bought a package of Miniatronics LEDs with red, green and yellow. There are 10 lights on the bridge, so I used Magnet Wire to connect everything because it's very thin and doesn't make the inside of the steelwork look like a bowl of spaghetti.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
There are two kinds of signals. Block Signals protect the train ahead of you from your running him down. You would both be traveling in the same direction, otherwise the home or interlocking signals would not have allowed you onto his track. Block Signals are automatic, controlled by train occupancy in the block.
You are more likely looking at "Home" or Interlocking signals such as are found protecting the interlocking plant. (A nice interlocking machine is shown in the current MR). The entire interlocking plant: Track, switchpoints, the locks, the signals and the interlocking machine, model board and tower are all produced by a single company. They work together. In practice a bell in the tower would announce the arrival of a train (still a few miles off) and the tower operator would align the switches through the plant and then clear the signals.
A searchlight signals is nothing more than a micro semiphore inside a housing that displays a single color to the train, this is why they too are going away: like semiphores they are basically a mechanical device. The advantage is that they always fail to the STOP position. You can count on gravity for that.
The NORMAL position for home or interlocking signals is RED. They move to green only when the operator clears the route. If you want to emulate the operations of a tower, then you would want to join this practice, even if your tower is only a few toggle switches on the fascia. Before a train can move onto a single track the towers at each end of the track must agree to that movement.
If, on the other hand, all you want or need is a scenic element that looks plausable, then all you need is a signal tied in to your switch motor. Tortoise machines are best for everything, but especially if you want them to work the signals. Twin coil machines will not support signals very well.
The use of LED signals simplifies the construction and wiring of signals. If you are buing ready made signals, they are what they are.
Maybe LIONS are too complicated for most layouts, but the LION *likes* the layout of him, with all of its relays and hundreds of signals heads.
The signal that you choose needs to be correct for its era, and for the type (brand) of interlocking equipment that is being used at least in this particular interlocking plant, although railroads want all of their stuff to be the same so as not to confuse train crews. In the modern era, with computers having taken over the role of the interlocking machine, any brand of signal may be mated to the system. A good thing, because of the merger of so many railroads. And that will give you the ability to mix and match different kinds of signals on your layout, just so long as you do not try show a Darth-Vader signal to a civil war engine.
Roger Hensley= ECI Railroad - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/eci/eci_new.html == Railroads of Madison County - http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =
Modeling Avery, Idaho 1971
P48 O scale
This link may be helpfull:
http://waynes-trains.com/site/Signals/Model-Railroad-Signaling.html
NILE, how do you control your turnouts?
Manual ground throws or electronic like a Tortoise?
Besides BLMA and NJ International, Tomar Industries makes very nice single and double search light signals.