Hi everyone, looking for some input on a trestle I'm starting to work on. This trestle is a jv models curved trestle 2016 which can span 36inches and can have bents 18 inches. Could be me just complicating things but its been a real chore figuring out the terrain to trestle connections. I've been a bit leary even starting this but went ahead and got a styrene jig made up so getting the longest bents built. The deck rails that I will need is the other issue which I'm troubled with, how do those of you's that have made bridges curved or straight deal with the rail on the stringers? I really hate the idea of buying single rails and trying to nail them down or glue them down and at the same time have the guage correct. All my calculations for bent footings upto the rail needs to be in place before I can proceed with mounting the bents and filling in the scenery.
Thanks for all suggestions
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Laying track on a bridge is one of those tasks that can sound worse than it actually is.
This in-progress scene shows rail spiked to wood ties on a deck girder bridge, but the process is similar for any bridge or trestle with wood ties. The process I used here is as follows:
Rob Spangler
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Don't build the bents to fit the terrain; rather, build the terrain to fit the bents. In other words, build the bridge first, with an idea of where the terrain will meet the bottom of the bents. Once this is done, then build an open frame that will eventually support the structure and scenery. Place the trestle in its location and build up to the base of the bents with wooden piers. If you’re going to have the bents set atop foundations, don’t forget to add these before building up the support structure under the trestle. For the final piece that will actually sit directly under the bents or the foundations for the bents, I use a rectangular block. This block is cut so that it sets about 1/4th inch below the bents without touching them. Then I take this block and draw a diagonal line along the long dimension of the block that has one end 3/8th s higher than the other. Once I have drawn this line, I saw along the line so I get two blocks that when fit back together will slide along each sawn edge making the rectangular blocks into adjustable parallels. This is how you can make the final adjustment to the risers and precisely meet the bottom of the bents.
Once you have the bridge in place and supported by the piers, remove the trestle and add and complete the scenery where the trestle will be located, being sure not to get any scenery atop the support piers as this would shim-up your trestle and throw everything off.
Notes: For some reason, on model railroads, the bent uprights always seem to be built from milled lumber, square in shape (this is what Campbell's provides in their trestle kits). Where I live the bent uprights are/where always round timbers. Also, I have forgone Nut Bolt Washer details, as in HO, they simply seem too small to show up. I've also noted that it doesn’t take very long before the creosoted dark brown colors of the timbers have faded to mostly gray and black colors.
I had a thread on building a trestle here on the MR Forums; but don’t seem to be able to find it anymore! It was entitled “Building a Trestle for Deep Gulch”.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I hand made a trestle that spanned about 25". Micro Engineering makes flex-track especially made for bridges.
Micro Engineering bridge flex-track
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I’ve blown up this photo as it shows Peco Code 100 flex track laid straight on to a scratch built trestle by my late friend Hans Hubner. It may be hard to see but he used track nails on about every 11th sleeper but I’m not sure if he used any adhesive as well. BTW, this trestle curve would be about an eighteen inch radius. Cheers, the Bear.
Thanks JaBear for the great photo, two thumbs up to your friends work. So are you telling me the track is actually Peco flex track off the shelf and not individually placed wooded ties then single rails spiked down to the ties?
NP2626 Don't build the bents to fit the terrain; rather, build the terrain to fit the bents. In other words, build the bridge first, with an idea of where the terrain will meet the bottom of the bents. Once this is done, then build an open frame that will eventually support the structure and scenery. Place the trestle in its location and build up to the base of the bents with wooden piers. If you’re going to have the bents set atop foundations, don’t forget to add these before building up the support structure under the trestle. For the final piece that will actually sit directly under the bents or the foundations for the bents, I use a rectangular block. This block is cut so that it sets about 1/4th inch below the bents without touching them. Then I take this block and draw a diagonal line along the long dimension of the block that has one end 3/8th s higher than the other. Once I have drawn this line, I saw along the line so I get two blocks that when fit back together will slide along each sawn edge making the rectangular blocks into adjustable parallels. This is how you can make the final adjustment to the risers and precisely meet the bottom of the bents. Once you have the bridge in place and supported by the piers, remove the trestle and add and complete the scenery where the trestle will be located, being sure not to get any scenery atop the support piers as this would shim-up your trestle and throw everything off. Notes: For some reason, on model railroads, the bent uprights always seem to be built from milled lumber, square in shape (this is what Campbell's provides in their trestle kits). Where I live the bent uprights are/where always round timbers. Also, I have forgone Nut Bolt Washer details, as in HO, they simply seem too small to show up. I've also noted that it doesn’t take very long before the creosoted dark brown colors of the timbers have faded to mostly gray and black colors. I had a thread on building a trestle here on the MR Forums; but don’t seem to be able to find it anymore! It was entitled “Building a Trestle for Deep Gulch”.
Thanks for taking the time to do such a well thought out post, you did a good job as I do understand what your saying and will follow your lead. I'll also do some searching for your post entitled “Building a Trestle for Deep Gulch”, I'm very interested.
Thanks
NP2626,
Trestles can be round pilings or cut timber(bents). What you are describing is usually round timbers driven into the ground with a pile driver. The height of the trestle is limited to the length of the timbers available.
Trestles assembled out of milled 'bents' can be stacked much higher and usually are supported by a masonary foundation. They normally have horizontal cross bracing between each of the assembled bents(but not always).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Medina1128 I hand made a trestle that spanned about 25". Micro Engineering makes flex-track especially made for bridges. Micro Engineering bridge flex-track
Thanks Marlon I looked through your photo album but couldn't find it.I see they have code 83 where as I'm using 100.
I have built a trestle where I put down bridge ties and spiked rail to the ties and I have bought and used Micro Engineering bridge track. The easier method is using the Micro Engineering bridge track. If your trestle is curved, you will need the bridge track to be flexible and I am unsure of other bridge tracks being flexible. However, I know for a fact that Micro Engineering’s bridge track is flexible.
If you’re going to spike rail to the bridge ties, this is done while the bridge track will lay flat on your bench with the stringers underneath and before the bents are attached. Rail can also be glued on.
jrbernier, I think the "bents" are called that, whether made from round pilings or milled timbers. As far as milled lumber having the ability to build a taller bent, that would make sense. I had a trestle which had been used as a part of the Heartland Trail, here in the Park Rapids area and was torn down two years ago. This trestle had round uprights "Pilings” in the bents that where at least 45 feet tall, not including the buried part in the ground. So pretty tall trestles where built with one chunk of timber. This would have been on the Great Northern branch from Wadena through Park Rapids, then turning east to Walker, where the tracks merged with the Northern Pacific!
NP2626 I have built a trestle where I put down bridge ties and spiked rail to the ties and I have bought and used Micro Engineering bridge track. The easier method is using the Micro Engineering bridge track. If your trestle is curved, you will need the bridge track to be flexible and I am unsure of other bridge tracks being flexible. However, I know for a fact that Micro Engineerings bridge track is flexible. If your going to spike rail to the bridge ties, this is done while the bridge track will lay flat on your bench with the stringers underneath and before the bents are attached. Rail can also be glued on. jrbernier, I think the "bents" are called that, whether made from round pilings or milled timbers. As far as milled lumber having the ability to build a taller bent, that would make sense. I had a trestle which had been used as a part of the Heartland Trail, here in the Park Rapids area and was torn down two years ago. This trestle had round uprights "Piles"
I have built a trestle where I put down bridge ties and spiked rail to the ties and I have bought and used Micro Engineering bridge track. The easier method is using the Micro Engineering bridge track. If your trestle is curved, you will need the bridge track to be flexible and I am unsure of other bridge tracks being flexible. However, I know for a fact that Micro Engineerings bridge track is flexible.
If your going to spike rail to the bridge ties, this is done while the bridge track will lay flat on your bench with the stringers underneath and before the bents are attached. Rail can also be glued on.
jrbernier, I think the "bents" are called that, whether made from round pilings or milled timbers. As far as milled lumber having the ability to build a taller bent, that would make sense. I had a trestle which had been used as a part of the Heartland Trail, here in the Park Rapids area and was torn down two years ago. This trestle had round uprights "Piles"
Thanks this is some very good information, I am presently doing some research on the micro engineering bridge flex track. How does it differ from the Atlas flex track other than the fact that the ME track stays bent into its curve once it has been gently bent that way?
Bridge track has the ties closer spaced and has longer ties. The Micro Engineering bridge track comes with Code 83 rails and Code 70 guard rails. It also comes with wood outside guard rails which are glued to the track after the rails are glued down.
wickman So are you telling me the track is actually Peco flex track off the shelf and not individually placed wooded ties then single rails spiked down to the ties?
Cheers, the Bear.
I basically built the bridge compleatly and put in place. Built the scenery to match. Still had to do a litle shimming or cutting out but ended up great.
Thanks guys for the helpful responses. Seems my best avenue to go down would be the ME bridge flex track and it is in stock in Toronto hobby shop.I'm using code 100 Atlas flex track, I realize I would have to use the rail joiners that go from 100 to which ever code I go to , I'm thinking the code 80 as if I go less it may look goofy going from the 100 to say 70. What code do you guys use?
wickmanSeems my best avenue to go down would be the ME bridge flex track...
The biggest challenge you may face with the bridge flex track is painting it to fit in with your otherwise wood structure. It can be done, but you're trading the challenge of learning to lay track on wood ties with the potentially greater challenge of figuring out how to paint plastic ties so they don't look out of place on a wood trestle. There's also the issue of gluing dissimilar materials to attach the slippery engineering plastic from the flex track ties to wood.
I used Micro Engineering code 83 bridge flex track on this steel trestle. Dry-brushed acrylics weathered the ties to mimic wood, but then again I wasn't attempting to match wood elsewhere on the bridge.
I'm using code 100 Atlas flex track, I realize I would have to use the rail joiners that go from 100 to which ever code I go to , I'm thinking the code 80 as if I go less it may look goofy going from the 100 to say 70.
Once painted and weathered, the transitions in rail shouldn't look bad.
Coming off the turnout at right is a transition from code 83 to code 55 - that's a greater difference than what's you'd be seeing between 100 and 83.
wickman So are you telling me the track is actually Peco flex track off the shelf and not individually placed wooded ties then single rails spiked down to the ties? Yes, sorry Lynn I should have made myself clearer. It is Peco SL-100, Code 100 flex track straight from the packet. A link to NP2626 Deep Gulch trestle thread..... http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/202778.aspx Cheers, the Bear.
Thanks for the link, its a very interesting read, has anyone been able to find Pliobond?
wickmanAlso wondering is it the same 3 foot rail in a new section if flex track as what I would receive if I were to order the individual rails from somewhere?
To answer this separately - every manufacturer's rail is different. If you're attempting to match Atlas code 100 rail, another brand is likely to have a different cross section, so you'd have to make allowances for that when connecting the two. The simplest way to effect the transition may be to strip rail from another piece of Atlas flex track, as that would guarantee everything matches up.
Thanks Rob as for the painting of the ties, I've done some research on that part and seems alot less painful than trying to tack a rail in place on a 22 radius and keep in guage.
wp8thsub wickman Also wondering is it the same 3 foot rail in a new section if flex track as what I would receive if I were to order the individual rails from somewhere? To answer this separately - every manufacturer's rail is different. If you're attempting to match Atlas code 100 rail, another brand is likely to have a different cross section, so you'd have to make allowances for that when connecting the two. The simplest way to effect the transition may be to strip rail from another piece of Atlas flex track, as that would guarantee everything matches up.
wickman Also wondering is it the same 3 foot rail in a new section if flex track as what I would receive if I were to order the individual rails from somewhere?
Rob I'm not quite sure what your suggesting here but I am interested to better understand. I do have a few new atlas code 100 flex tracks available if you have an idea?
wickmanI've done some research on that part and seems alot less painful than trying to tack a rail in place on a 22 radius and keep in guage.
Sounds like you're approaching the idea of hand-laying with a great deal of trepidation. Using an NMRA gauge and/or other gauges, keeping rail in gauge is a total no-brainer. You could try spiking onto scrap material for a test. Use the right materials and it will go fast. I can spike rail to a wood bridge far quicker than I can try to glue plastic ties on and get everything painted the same. If you can assemble a wood kit (and judging from the photos in your other layout thread you can do that just fine), you can hand lay rail.
wickmanob I'm not quite sure what your suggesting here but I am interested to better understand. I do have a few new atlas code 100 flex tracks available if you have an idea?
I'm just suggesting you could pull the rail from some Atlas flex track and lay that on your bridge. One rail should slide right out, while the other may need to be broken out of the ties.
wp8thsub wickman ob I'm not quite sure what your suggesting here but I am interested to better understand. I do have a few new atlas code 100 flex tracks available if you have an idea? I'm just suggesting you could pull the rail from some Atlas flex track and lay that on your bridge. One rail should slide right out, while the other may need to be broken out of the ties.
wickman ob I'm not quite sure what your suggesting here but I am interested to better understand. I do have a few new atlas code 100 flex tracks available if you have an idea?
Ah ok I see what you mean, I've done this a few years back by simply as you say remove a rail and or its under plastic joint and sandwich them together, worked fine on a straight bridge but I have my doubts it would work so well on a 22 Radius curve. I remember reading some time ago of how campbell trestle or maybe bridge kits had the maker use there flex track with plastic ties removed and nail the rails to the campbell kit wood ties.
And yes I do have great trepitation about handlaying rail. Probably part of the issue is its easier for me to order the ME bridge track then it is to find the rails and nails here in canada. I might add my fat fingers and bad eyes don't help any.lol
There are also transition track sections that go from Code 100 to Code 83;
https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/948-898 You can also modify Code 100 rail joiners to do this.
I painted my bridge track the same way and color as I painted my other track work. However, bridge track might be better taken care of, to simulate this, I used a black wash on my bridge ties.
wickmanI've done this a few years back ...worked fine on a straight bridge but I have my doubts it would work so well on a 22 Radius curve.
Not to worry. It will hold up EXACTLY the same. Sharpness of the curve makes no difference.
Still undecided Rob, I'm going to contactthe two hobby shops that I know of in toronto to see if they carry the single rails, even if I took a 3 foot atlas flex track apart I would still have to order spikes which I'm sure are not your standard nails?
wickman...if I took a 3 foot atlas flex track apart I would still have to order spikes which I'm sure are not your standard nails?
Standard track nails aren't useful for handlaying rail. They're far too long and the heads aren't an appropriate shape. You can attach rail using contact cement, flexible CA like Poly Zap or Microbond, or home-made spikes cut from ordinary staples. Even on a 3-foot long bridge, you won't need a whole lot of spikes.
wp8thsub...Even on a 3-foot long bridge, you won't need a whole lot of spikes.
Hey, Rob, let's not promote slap-dash construction. We'll expect to see at least four spikes per tie, and that's just for the running rails, and let's not forget the tieplates, either.
As you can see, the standards for guard rails are somewhat more relaxed.
Wayne
doctorwayne wp8thsub ...Even on a 3-foot long bridge, you won't need a whole lot of spikes. Hey, Rob, let's not promote slap-dash construction. We'll expect to see at least four spikes per tie, and that's just for the running rails, and let's not forget the tieplates, either. As you can see, the standards for guard rails are somewhat more relaxed. Wayne
wp8thsub ...Even on a 3-foot long bridge, you won't need a whole lot of spikes.
The weathering looks excellent