Hi Folks,
I'm sure somewhere in here this topic has been discussed before. I've got some really nice soil from my yard that I'd like to use with other scenery materials. I'm pretty sure I read that it would be advised to "bake" it first - to remove any potential organisms, etc.
Thanks in advance for pointing me in the right direction.
-Greg
trainmasterg Hi Folks, I'm sure somewhere in here this topic has been discussed before. I've got some really nice soil from my yard that I'd like to use with other scenery materials. I'm pretty sure I read that it would be advised to "bake" it first - to remove any potential organisms, etc. Is this truly necessary? Yes, the problem can be from the living things in there that may cause a staff infection or a respiratory infection during the handling and sifting process. Once you in case in glue after soaking with rubbing alcohol the hazard to you is gone. Best methods? About 1 hour at 350 is the general rule Hazards in baking process? other things that may be in there such a lead from fishing weights if you got your gravel from a creek bed Drawbacks? (long term discoloration, cracking, etc) None I know of Anyone have photos of their results? Nope still looks the same Also, be sure to run a magnet to get all of the iron based particles out of it that may play havoc with the electronics ratled
Also, be sure to run a magnet to get all of the iron based particles out of it that may play havoc with the electronics
ratled
Modeling the Klamath River area in HO on a proto-lanced sub of the SP “The State of Jefferson Line”
I use a LOT of natural scenery materials. I have never baked dirt, nor checked with a magnet, and haven't had an issue despite the many sources of dirt I've used. I do tend to store it in airtight containers (5 gallon buckets, plastic kitty litter containers, etc.) for some time before use however.
Rob Spangler
Personally, I'd sift it and then microwave it for 60 seconds just to be safe.
Enjoy
Paul
Hazard? Yes, you're wife's gonna smack you hard over the head with a frying pan when you wreck her oven!
I've seen this discussion several times and NO ONE I can remember has ever actually claimed or described an actual bad effect in reality from NOT baking dirt.
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
I wonder if freezing it would accomplish the same thing.
Steve S
The sun bakes dirt here in Arizona. I've used lots and lots of dirt on both a large HO scale club layout and an HO scale home layout and have never baked it or run a magnet over it.
I mix the finely sifted dirt with plaster, water, white glue, and acrylic paint. Once it dries nothing is going to grow in it, and if there are any particles that may be attracted to a magnet, I don't think they're going to be a problem with it firmly glued down.
The only thing I've ever ran a magnet over is some very finely powdered copper smelter slag, which does have quite a bit of residual copper and other metals in it.
Steven S I wonder if freezing it would accomplish the same thing. Steve S
No. Freezing doesn't kill microorganisms, just makes them less active for a while. Nor does keeping it in an airtight container. Even an inch of air space on the top would provide months or years of respiration for many creatures (some of them don't breath oxygen, and can set up a cycle of life inside a sealed container).
And while I've never actually heard of anyone who had "bad things happen" from using dirt which has not been baked (or microwaved) and had a magnet run over it, I wouldn't want to be the first person, either. It's just good common sense, and it's not hard, so why skip it?
It's not hazardous if you take minimal precautions (no more so than roasting your Thanksgiving turkey). 350 degrees (which is too cool to ignite dead leaves or sticks) for 30 minutes will do it, or 10 minutes on high in the microwave.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I baked mine at 400 F. for an hour or so. I used my wife's best cookie sheets and heaped up the dirt on the two of them to about 10cm deep. I am not sure how baking dirt would ruin an oven but I think next time I'll put the cookie sheets on the natural gas barbecue outside at 400F. as the smell in the house wasn't exactly Prime Rib. Even with the fan on.
After it cooled I sifted it all through about four or five different sized kitchen strainers and have it all sorted into different coffee cans waiting to be used. The cookie sheets just washed off and the oven stayed clean as dirt doesn't seem to splatter. My wife just rolled her eyes at me as I returned the strainers and cookie sheets to their appropriate spots.
I was looking for that mucky Alberta foot hills, cattle range, spring thaw look. I am happy with how it has gone so far. Below is real dirt and static grass.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hi,
Personally, while I would use "real" sand and rocks, I would hesitate to use soil on the layout. But, it is done by others and with varying degrees of success. I actually tried it years ago, but it just didn't look right.
Anyway, a good practice to get it layout ready is to:
- Screen the soil first to remove debris. Remember, a shovel full or so will likely be all you need.
- Run a fairly strong magnet through the screened soil. You would be surprised at the ferrous material in the ground, which can attach itself to your locos and cars and has a definite damage potential.
- Spread it thinly on a baking (cookie) sheet and bake for about an hour at 250 degrees F. This will kill anything in the soil, and take out all the moisture as well.
- Let it cool, and then screen it again - and "apply as needed".
Oh, as a side note........ in my travels around the US I have seen soil colors ranging from jet black to yellows to reds to grays and countless combinations. It would be a good idea to get the soil (w/o getting arrested) from the area you are modeling.....................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Rob
I agree with you as I used many pounds (at times I would have thought it was Tons) of sand/dirt from the side of the roads around here for years -
both on my home layout and my local club layout - with never a problem!
And both of these layouts are located in basements with humidity levels much higher that what I would like!
This is another one of those Model Railroad Urban Myths - that ONE person MIGHT have had a problem and NOW - EVERYONE IS HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM ! ( I love this ME-TOO attitude ).
If you are so worried about this so called problem - use PLAY SAND - it is sanitized for you and already sifted and bagged.
I am using it now on my current layout as I moved and the local roads around here do not have the same levels of sand/dirt I used in the past.
It is just easier to go to the Big Box Stores and buy a bag for $5.00 or so and use it straight out of the bag - no Cooking - no Magnets - no Sifting.
And it can be tinted with any latex type of paint - if you really have to - I just cover everything with ground foam and it looks great!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
wp8thsub I use a LOT of natural scenery materials. I have never baked dirt, nor checked with a magnet, and haven't had an issue despite the many sources of dirt I've used. I do tend to store it in airtight containers (5 gallon buckets, plastic kitty litter containers, etc.) for some time before use however.
Most of my buddies in the hobby and myself have used real dirt and rocks for years without baking and magnets. No problems with bugs, microbes, iron in motors etc...The trick is to glue it down.
The biggest problem for me is that the color darkens considerably when glue is added. I use dry grey pigments and fine grey sifted dirt to color adjust the dirt to get the proper look when I glue it down.
One more trick is to sand the dirt after the glue has dried. Brings up a nice dusty look.
Here is a pic. of natural dirt in use:
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
If you do decide to "cook" the dirt, an oven is more sure than a microwave. For example, if you were to microwave dry sand it would probably not heat up at all. Microwaves generally need water or a conductor to heat; its generally the water in foods that heats. On the other hand, conductive metals in your dirt can cause effects ranging from nothing at all up to causing a fire or destroying the microwave.
While germs probably have some moisture in them and so can be cooked, I'm not sure about viruses.
In any event, heating the soil to 350 degrees F in an oven will pretty much kill plant seeds, molds, fungi, germs, bugs, etc.
Alan
I think we are all forgetting the most important thing here about cooking or baking dirt in an oven or microwave. Discussing it with the woman of the house first. Especially if she is the OP's wife or mother. I know my wife would not want/allow me to cook dirt in our microwave or oven, even if I did ask or discuss it with her.
OP you may want to discuss this with the woman of the house before you go forward with this idea. Otherwise you may find yourself in trouble when she finds out. And believe me she WILL find out.
Another thing is if the dirt is from your yard there could be tetanus bacteria in it. Tetanus is from animal *** and lives in the ground. It is more common on farms and rural areas. You cannot get tetnau from a rusty nail unless an animal crapped on it, it was stuck in the ground and exposed to the bacteria first. Tetnau can occur from animal *** in cities nad towns as well. Mainly those with dogs and outdoor cats.
Hi again,
Baking your dirt (1 hr at 250F) just makes good sense. If there is any dangerous micro-organisms in there, they will be toast. And, the moisture will be removed from the dirt, making it easier to manage.
I have used a cookie sheet - with a tin foil base (to appease the other half), and it works like a charm. Remember, you are going to need a relatively small amount and its just not that big of a deal.
I've never had a problem using real dirt, sifted of course to remove out-of-scale particles. I've developed a technique that works well for me, at least...I use an old modeling paint brush, which I dip into a 50/50 white glue/water mix. I then dip the brush into my container of loose soil, and "paint" the layout surface. I repeat as necessary. This works especially well when adding soil to slopes...for a runoff erosion effect, just add more of the glue/water mix. When dry, the soil looks loose but is completely bonded to the homasote, foam, plywood or whatever.
Since I model Oklahoma railroading, but live in Kansas City, I have to make "dirt" runs down home to Okie land every so often. I use the fine red dirt. My wife, a true KC woman, gets out along oil lease roads when we go down home, and collects coffe cans of that fine red dirt while I watch for the fuzz and those big fuzzy spiders that my wife doesn't know about. We bring it back to KC, I run a magnet, sift it, bake it in the oven and store it in containers. Most visitors recognize it as Oklahoma when they come into the room and visit for the first time.
Have been doing it for over 20 years, no adverse effects.
Bob
SUX V R40 Rider I think we are all forgetting the most important thing here about cooking or baking dirt in an oven or microwave. Discussing it with the woman of the house first. Especially if she is the OP's wife or mother. I know my wife would not want/allow me to cook dirt in our microwave or oven, even if I did ask or discuss it with her.
True enough.
Or you can bypass the issue. Do what I did - buy a cheap toaster oven for modelling use. There are lots of uses for a small amount of managed heat in modelling. And your RR doesn't end up smelling of garlic and oregano
I had a problem using real dirt in a diorama. Unwanted things started growing including some sort of mold looking stuff.
Since then I take a 5 gallon bucket fill it about half way with dirt. I fill it with water and a couple drops of dawn. Anything that isn't dirt floats and can be skimmed off the top. I stir it with a board until nothing else floats. Then I let it settle for a couple hours and pour off the water. I take a pie plate and fill it with wet dirt. Kinda looks like a big mud pie. I use an old microwave and cook it until all the water is gone. What I'm left with is clean dry dirt. After that I use different screens and sift it. That way I have a couple containers with unsifted, large, medium, small, fine and super fine dirt.
I've gotten a bit of negative criticism for doing all this to dirt. I've also been told it's completely unnecessary. Since I've been doing this I haven't had any problems with "stuff" growing in my dioramas. I've also noticed that it takes glue better when its cleaned dirt vs. raw dirt.
My pictures: http://public.fotki.com/DaveInTheHat/
My videos & slideshows: http://www.youtube.com/user/daveinthehat/videos
My book: http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/411321
Dave in the Hat,
May I digress from the dirt issue.......... Your streets/sidewalks are outstanding! What can you tell us about them?
Thanks! My roads and sidewalks are made with plaster. I put together a "How-To".
http://journals.fotki.com/daveinthehat/how-i-make-roads/
Thanks for the input everyone. I'm going to bake some dirt today. I simply feel more comfortable not having any chance of organisms lurking (even if there aren't any)
Going to try 350 for about a half hour. That should be long enough. Using an old 9" pan that was donated by the master chef of the house for model railroad use. That was her only concern.
Happy Railroading.
I read some good advice, that was if you have a substantial amount of dirt prep to do, go to your local thrift store (Goodwill, Salvation Army, St Vincent, etc.) and by a used Toaster Oven and any pans or trays you might need to do the work, most can be had for under $10 keep that in your work area and use it to bake for dirt, rocks soil etc.
Its not just to get rid of microbes or water, you want to make sure you kill any mold or fungus spores that might be in the soil, especially if your in a humid climate, add such soil to a a humid indoor location you can quite literally get giant scale 20' high mushroom monsters sprouting up on your layout. I also prevents possible microbe or spore cross over into the stove you do your cooking in, ewww!
Also as mentioned earlier, a small toaster oven can have other uses, just a thought.
Have fun with your trains
Cook it in your bar-b-que outside. Trust me - baking dirt can give off a rather odd smell that the "boss of the kitchen" would not approve of !
I only baked my dirt once, but never bothered with subsequent dirt acquisitions. I glue dirt down just like ballast by misting it with wet water, then dribbled thinned white glue on it. Being totally saturated, anything in the dirt is completely sealed by the glue.
Been on the layout for over fifteen years and nothing has taken root on its own.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Yes - this is another Model Railroading Urban Myth!
I have soil on my layout that has been there for 10 years and my Basement Humidity level is quite high even with a good dehumidifier and haven't had any bugs YET!
I usually use the WHITE PLAY SAND found at the Big Box stores and at $3.00 a 50 lb bag.
It is sanitized for those that JUST have to WORRY about BUGS and the like!
I too have never baked my 'soil', and I have used my sifted and rather sandy garden soil for two layouts now. However, I do mix it with plaster of Paris to keep it in firm and in place, and I do wet it initially with isopropyl alcohol as a surfactant. I expect that first treatment, after it is rolled and shaped prior to gluing it and adding ground foam or tufts, doesn't do any resident beasties a heckuva lot of good.
Crandell
That's just it, though...although I use the alcohol as a wetting agent prior to over-spraying with a light glue solution, it has the salutary benefit of sterilizing the soil in all respects except for the hardiest of critters and seeds. So far, not one seed has erupted on my layout...at leat, none that I have encountered.
Baking should be just fine. I'm too lazy, and I want quicker results, and when coupled with the main intent of pre-wetting...two birds with the one solution.
selector That's just it, though...although I use the alcohol as a wetting agent prior to over-spraying with a light glue solution, it has the salutary benefit of sterilizing the soil in all respects except for the hardiest of critters and seeds. So far, not one seed has erupted on my layout...at leat, none that I have encountered. Baking should be just fine. I'm too lazy, and I want quicker results, and when coupled with the main intent of pre-wetting...two birds with the one solution. Crandell
I also use the 70% ISO to prewet the scenery base!
And I agree in the - "Work SMARTER - NOT HARDER" idea!
Some seem to go to such extremes to build a Layout and wonder WHY it takes so long or is so expensive!
To each his own!