Dan,
My thinking regarding using 2X4 lumber is that is overkill but to each is own. I remember seeing a layout that was built with 2X6'a so The size is in your choice and budget. Getting knot free pine lumber is getting to be more of a challenge. That is why I would encourage your thinking of the plywood strips. It is very cost effective for the price. If you had to buy say 10 1X4s @ 3.00 that would 30.00. finding a 4 to 6 ply plywood sheet at $30.00 would give you 11 strips of lumber. That is one free I know there are math heads out there who are thinking that you should get 12 pieces. But you have to take in account the bite of the saw blade. The savings would even improve with the choice of going to 1X3s 15 per sheet.
If you are going to put hardboard on the egde you can use rougher faced plywood and not the sanded smooth stuff which is a little more costly.
While moving numerous times, all over the eastern half of U.S., I've built 9 layouts, always using 1x4 pine, topped with 1x2 furring strips to make a "L" girder, and 1x2 pine, configured to a "L" shaped leg, through all sorts of humidity and heat/cool problems, in basements, attics, and garages....and reused them over and over in the rebuilds when I've moved. Never a problem....
To the guy that considered the "exotic" woods, best think again.... that "hard stuff" when it really ages is virtually impossible to work with later, and no matter how hard you plan, it's inevitable that you will want to move some structural piece at a later date....
Hobo Joe
usi
Other thoughts, based on British modeller Iain Rice's experience:
- you can use l-girders for portable sections in these ways:
1) separate the l-girder from the portable sections (see Kalmbach's Model railroad planning 2006 page 23). The sections can than, if need be, be bolted to the l-girder yet they are easily movable in case of a move of house or just from or to the workbench.
2) use plywood for l-girders. Those that want to be safe can use 3/4 " thick and 6 " high strips and screw and glue them together. Cut out circular or oval holes to make things lighter without sacrificing strenght (see Kalmbach's Small, smart & practical track plans page 12).
- It is not the individual strength of each piece of wood that makes things practical but the way everything fits together. In effect you build a bridge.
Remember, as long as you do not sleep on it, walk on it, lean on it or swing from it, it does not need to carry that much weight. Particularly not with todays use of foam for a scenery base, let alone glueshell scenery (one of my favourites).
greetings,
Marc Immeker
As my layout has to be easily movable, I'm using 3x1 fro the framing and 1/2" thick ply sheet on the top. I can't use L girder construction on this, because it needs to be portablle. A hint for those who need portable layouts is to cut a 4"-5" slot on each of the outer members to allow you to get hold of the layout easily and move it (mine is 2' 8" wide)
Dennis
I build classic L-girder benchwork and used 1x3 and 1x2 for my L-girders, I use 1x3 for joists, and 1x2 for risers. I used soft pine. It takes drywall screws without pilots.
Linn Wescott's book, "How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork" has a chart that shows what size lumber to use for a given span of distance between supports. I highly recommend this book.
Keep in mind the challenge in MRR benchwork is not strength.. its rigidity. Most benchwork is more then strong enough to support the weight put on it.The trick is to keep everything rigid so there is no sag or wobble. That has more to do with technique of construction then with using out-sized lumber. One more reason to consider the previously mentioned book.
Good luck!
Chris
Pasadena Sub el-capitan And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges. Sure you can! All of my benchwork is constructed using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped into 1x3" boards. All of my front boards are installed by driving 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws through the front board and into the ends of the wall bracket arms:
el-capitan And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges.
Sure you can! All of my benchwork is constructed using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped into 1x3" boards. All of my front boards are installed by driving 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws through the front board and into the ends of the wall bracket arms:
I should expand on my original statement:
And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges, if you are building your layout to support my weight.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
John_PWH Jamie, Did you counter-sink and/or pilot drill into the plywood to keep it from splitting?
Jamie,
Did you counter-sink and/or pilot drill into the plywood to keep it from splitting?
Yes, I predrilled pilot holes and countersunk every screw that went into the benchwork. Otherwise, as you indicate, the top layer of the plywood will just get a nasty split. BTW, for any considerable size job I highly recommend one of these:
My quick-change drill/driver is made by Ryobi and really saves time so you do not have to keep switching betweent the countersink bit and the driver. Just drill, flip, and drive.
Don Z Just because you 'can' screw into the end grain of solid wood or into the ply end of plywood doesn't mean you 'should' do it....using a fastener (nail or screw) in this manner results in a very weak joint. Using pocket hole joinery in your situation would result in much stronger joints. Don Z.
Just because you 'can' screw into the end grain of solid wood or into the ply end of plywood doesn't mean you 'should' do it....using a fastener (nail or screw) in this manner results in a very weak joint. Using pocket hole joinery in your situation would result in much stronger joints.
Don Z.
True, but depending on the situation, you can get into "overbuilding" real fast. For example, the front boards that I show above will only support the front edge of any scenery (which is only 16" deep at the deepest point, except for corners) and provide lateral stability to the arms of the wall brackets. As it is, I would feel secure displaying my prize cinder block collection on these shelves And no, I would not go into the end grain of a standard dimensional lumber (such as pine), but the comment I was referencing specifically targeted plywood boards. Jamie
CLICK HERE FOR THE CSX DIXIE LINE BLOG
Pasadena SubSure you can! All of my benchwork is constructed using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped into 1x3" boards. All of my front boards are installed by driving 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws through the front board and into the ends of the wall bracket arms:
Research; it's not just for geeks.
Of course, where extra support is needed I also try to use a join block of some type, but this is usually to provide a more convenient angle for driving the screws. Even in this piece screws have been driven into the edge of a board ripped from plywood:
Just use good judgement and you will end up with a sturdy design. Jamie
And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges.
I use blocks where the 2 pieces of plywood meet. Screws go in the blocks and not the ends.
For my 40x100cm n-scale modules (www.america-n.de) now abuilding I use 9mm plywood 10 cm high. I use 2 stiffeners to keep everything square and support the 9mm roadbed. It is quite sturdy once the roadbed is screwed on and 2 modules have already been moved by train across my (admittedly small) country.
When I built my layout, I had the lumber yard rip sheets of 3/4" plywood into 3 inch strips. I also had them cut enough 4 inch strips to frame the outside of my layout. I used the 3 inch strips for the inside framing then attached the 4 inch strips to the outside with the bottom edges being the same. All joints were nailed, glued & braced as necessary. That gave me one inch between the top of the inside framing and the top of the outside pieces. I filled this with a 1/4 inch sheet of luan paneling and then a sheet of 3/4 inch sheet of blue foam. This made up the extra inch and everything was level at the sides.
I used 2x4s for the legs with some 1x2s cut for bracing. The layout is six years old and is rock solid.
Here's a link to my blog posting about building my framework. http://thecourier.typepad.com/alongtherightofway/2007/09/building-the-la.html
dlm
I spent alot of time ripping 2x6's into 4 pieces for my layout just to save money. When I build my next layout I won't be. It was a waste of time. Spend the money for 2x4's or 1x4's and be done with it. Either 2x4 or 1x4 is going to cost about the same. And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges.
danadrien ... is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's?
... is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's?
Your spacing of members is going to be the same regardless of 1x or 2x, so theres no savings there. Also based on the 2x's at my local Home Despot, I would say they are more prone to warpage than the 1x's as they appear to have alot more moisture retention. Also 1x's are FAR easier to handle, cut, and screw together.
Have fun with your trains
Dan, I did not read the answers that where posted I just skipped to reply.
DO NOT USE 2 X 4'S THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STRAIGHT ONE!!!!
If there where two things I could do over it would be the following.
No bench wider than 3 feet unless it is free standing.
Use 1 x 2 that are finished. Other words milled so they are straight.
Only thing worst than a 2 X 4 in model rail roading is a Tyco pancake motor engine.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Thank you all for the great ideas, especially about the metal studs. I'm an electrician, and have some experience using them. We'll see how it goes!
My Yuba River Sub is built with 1x3" all the way--legs, braces and supports. But I'm also using 2" extruded foam as a base (with bracing every 12" under the foam) and though it's a fairly large garage layout (24x24') I haven't had any problems with warpage or sagging. But then all my scenery (and it extends about 4' above the 0' elevation of the layout and track is supported by WS risers and foam forms. It's light weight, but I wouldn't recommend my type of construction for anyone using a plywood base--I'd go a little thicker on the bracing lumber. But for my 'foam' Sierra Nevada, it's worked very well for me for the past 7 years.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I used 4x8 sheets of 3/4 plywood that I ripped into 3 1/2" boards. I also made the legs from the same boards, arranged in an L shape. It saved me a lot of money and everything is square and straight. I would not recomend doing this unless you own a table saw. Also, It adds a lot of extra labor to the process. I was willing to spend the extra time in order to save the money, which I preferred to spend on other train goodies. I built 2x4 foot tables, that I bolt together with carriage bolts. Everything can be unbolted and disassembled, so that I never have to build bench work again. At least I hope so.
mainetrainsI've always used 1x4 pine for my layout legs and framing with never a problem. Heck, for the past 15 years or so I've used the same 1x4's for several layouts and game tables. Two 1x4's attached at a 90 degree angle using 2" wood screws is about as solid a leg as you can come up with. Mainetrains
I've always used 1x4 pine for my layout legs and framing with never a problem. Heck, for the past 15 years or so I've used the same 1x4's for several layouts and game tables. Two 1x4's attached at a 90 degree angle using 2" wood screws is about as solid a leg as you can come up with.
Mainetrains
That's what I have used also. Recently, I experimented with 1x3's for legs in the L shape because I had some and they work well also.
Enjoy
Paul
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
I just completed all of the benchwork for my new layout (except for the helix) using 1x3s ripped from 8x4 sheets of birch plywood. Although the plywood was $50 a sheet, the costs were comparable when you consider that I could get about 18-20 boards out of one sheet. Also, the quality (no warping or twisting now) and strength (no warping or twisting later) can't be beat when compared to typical pine boards. Jamie
Caveat: I live in the dessicated desert, where single-digit humidity is the norm and daily highs above blood temperature occur about 120 days out of the year. (The local weather weenies refer to 80 degrees F as, "Cool!") Out here, wood products tend to take on wierd and wonderful (not!!!) shapes. I have gone to steel studs for all my layout-building needs.
Advantages:
Disadvantages:
A little comment about bending stress. If you intend to climb up and dance on your benchwork, steel studs probably aren't a good choice. BUT, most benchwork is WAY overdesigned. We are supporting models whose weights are measured in ounces, not building floors for upstairs bedrooms.
For now, and for the future, the only wood products in use on my double-garage filler will be the plywood parts of my cookie-cut subgrade - and, where they tend to deviate from straight and level I beat them into submission with lengths of steel angle iron. Steel isn't the only answer, but it's the one that works for me.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tinman1 The biggest problem with re-sawing wood (ripping) is the risk of the pieces twisting or bowing. This is due to the stresses in the wood. Knot holes and funky grain are good for this.
The biggest problem with re-sawing wood (ripping) is the risk of the pieces twisting or bowing. This is due to the stresses in the wood. Knot holes and funky grain are good for this.
This is why I addressed to forummember loco which way his local lumberyard "ripped" his 2 bys. Despite the best efforts of the sawmill I am sure we have all seen 2 bys more crooked than a dog's hind leg!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
LocoMy local lumber yard will "rip" 2x4's free of charge and they will be perfect for legs and such. Might want to check this out. Think that's what I'll be doing.
2 bys are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2"; when this local lumber yard "rips" these is it done along the 1 1/2" or the 3 1/2" side?
The biggest problem with re-sawing wood (ripping) is the risk of the pieces twisting or bowing. This is due to the stresses in the wood. Knot holes and funky grain are good for this. I went a little overboard myself and made I-beams from 1/4" luan and 1x2 fir strip. They are 4 1/2" x 96" and only need support at the ends. They are straight, won't warp, and can support my weight (180lbs) with only 1/4" deflection. I figured I could run a couple Big Boys on that. . Costs were $18 for a 4x8 sheet of luan and 1x2s were .89c.
I used 2x4's (I just realised recently 2x4's are really 1 1/2" X 3 1/2", I never bothered to check because I figured the name matched the description) probably an overkill but my layout was meant too be mobile... Either would work well.
danadrien Has anyone done a cost comparision between using 2x4 and 1x4 for layout constuction? Even though the 2x4's are more expensive, is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's? Is warping and bowing more of a problem with 1x4's? I've also read about cutting 4'x8'x3/4" plywood into 4" strips in place of the 1x4's. Is this a realistic alternative? Any thoughts you guys have would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Dan
Has anyone done a cost comparision between using 2x4 and 1x4 for layout constuction? Even though the 2x4's are more expensive, is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's? Is warping and bowing more of a problem with 1x4's? I've also read about cutting 4'x8'x3/4" plywood into 4" strips in place of the 1x4's. Is this a realistic alternative? Any thoughts you guys have would be very much appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan
I use 1x3's with 2x2" legs and 1/2" plywood. My layout is sturdy enough for me to climb on it, if needed. Yes, ripping a 3/4" sheet of plywoood is doable and might be cheaper.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/