Has anyone done a cost comparision between using 2x4 and 1x4 for layout constuction? Even though the 2x4's are more expensive, is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's? Is warping and bowing more of a problem with 1x4's? I've also read about cutting 4'x8'x3/4" plywood into 4" strips in place of the 1x4's. Is this a realistic alternative? Any thoughts you guys have would be very much appreciated.
Thanks,
Dan
2x4s are pretty much overkill, structurally. And very heavy to boot. My layout is movable, so my goal was sturdy, lightweight construction.
I have modules built using 1x4 frames and 1x2 joists that are 15 years old, and neery a sign of warpage. My new construction is 3/4" ply ripped into 3 1/2" widths. The oldest of these modules are 6 years old and still straight and square.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
The only way that I would use a 2x4 would be to rip it into an L-girder shape, then use the strip that was cut out of it as the joists.
Otherwise, use 1x4's or 3/4 inch plywood ripped into 3 1/2 inch strips. The best plywood is birch furniture grade plywood. It is also more expensive, but it is straight and flat. You might want to take a look at it just so you know what it is and to compare prices. Sometimes it does go on sale and can be cheaper than the regular 3/4 inch plywood.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
My previous layout was all 1x4 lumber with 2" foam on top. Very sturdy. My new modules are 1x4's with 1x3 stringers, so the foam top will be slightly inset inside the lengthwise 1x4's. I'll have pictures - this is going to be totally documented. Plenty strong. 2x4's might be cheap, but that's for messy looking and probably warped stud-grade. Also as Nick says - HEAVY. Definitely overkill, Even if you need soemthign strong enough to stand on periodically - you don't need to build the benchwork from 2x4's.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
danadrienHas anyone done a cost comparision between using 2x4 and 1x4 for layout constuction? Even though the 2x4's are more expensive, is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's? Is warping and bowing more of a problem with 1x4's? I've also read about cutting 4'x8'x3/4" plywood into 4" strips in place of the 1x4's. Is this a realistic alternative? Any thoughts you guys have would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Dan
Hmmm. Around here, 2"x4"s are a lot cheaper than comparable lengths of 1"x4". Don't use strapping-grade 1"x4"s, as they're full of knots, definitely not dry, and very prone to warping. Instead, use #1 or Select grade pine - clear of large knots and kiln-dried, and you should be able to find plenty of straight ones. While I did use 2"x4"s for legs on the layout, (I just "happened" to have lots "left-over" from building my house) as well as to support shelving beneath it, all of the layout is framed with 1"x4" pine assembled into an open grid using drywall screws. When I eventually get around to doing the second level, my plan is to use 1"x2" clear pine, with a tabletop of 3/8" sheathing grade plywood.
Wayne
danadrien Has anyone done a cost comparision between using 2x4 and 1x4 for layout constuction? Even though the 2x4's are more expensive, is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's? Is warping and bowing more of a problem with 1x4's? I've also read about cutting 4'x8'x3/4" plywood into 4" strips in place of the 1x4's. Is this a realistic alternative? Any thoughts you guys have would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Dan
I use 1x3's with 2x2" legs and 1/2" plywood. My layout is sturdy enough for me to climb on it, if needed. Yes, ripping a 3/4" sheet of plywoood is doable and might be cheaper.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
I used 2x4's (I just realised recently 2x4's are really 1 1/2" X 3 1/2", I never bothered to check because I figured the name matched the description) probably an overkill but my layout was meant too be mobile... Either would work well.
The biggest problem with re-sawing wood (ripping) is the risk of the pieces twisting or bowing. This is due to the stresses in the wood. Knot holes and funky grain are good for this. I went a little overboard myself and made I-beams from 1/4" luan and 1x2 fir strip. They are 4 1/2" x 96" and only need support at the ends. They are straight, won't warp, and can support my weight (180lbs) with only 1/4" deflection. I figured I could run a couple Big Boys on that. . Costs were $18 for a 4x8 sheet of luan and 1x2s were .89c.
LocoMy local lumber yard will "rip" 2x4's free of charge and they will be perfect for legs and such. Might want to check this out. Think that's what I'll be doing.
2 bys are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2"; when this local lumber yard "rips" these is it done along the 1 1/2" or the 3 1/2" side?
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
tinman1 The biggest problem with re-sawing wood (ripping) is the risk of the pieces twisting or bowing. This is due to the stresses in the wood. Knot holes and funky grain are good for this.
The biggest problem with re-sawing wood (ripping) is the risk of the pieces twisting or bowing. This is due to the stresses in the wood. Knot holes and funky grain are good for this.
This is why I addressed to forummember loco which way his local lumberyard "ripped" his 2 bys. Despite the best efforts of the sawmill I am sure we have all seen 2 bys more crooked than a dog's hind leg!
Caveat: I live in the dessicated desert, where single-digit humidity is the norm and daily highs above blood temperature occur about 120 days out of the year. (The local weather weenies refer to 80 degrees F as, "Cool!") Out here, wood products tend to take on wierd and wonderful (not!!!) shapes. I have gone to steel studs for all my layout-building needs.
Advantages:
Disadvantages:
A little comment about bending stress. If you intend to climb up and dance on your benchwork, steel studs probably aren't a good choice. BUT, most benchwork is WAY overdesigned. We are supporting models whose weights are measured in ounces, not building floors for upstairs bedrooms.
For now, and for the future, the only wood products in use on my double-garage filler will be the plywood parts of my cookie-cut subgrade - and, where they tend to deviate from straight and level I beat them into submission with lengths of steel angle iron. Steel isn't the only answer, but it's the one that works for me.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I just completed all of the benchwork for my new layout (except for the helix) using 1x3s ripped from 8x4 sheets of birch plywood. Although the plywood was $50 a sheet, the costs were comparable when you consider that I could get about 18-20 boards out of one sheet. Also, the quality (no warping or twisting now) and strength (no warping or twisting later) can't be beat when compared to typical pine boards. Jamie
CLICK HERE FOR THE CSX DIXIE LINE BLOG
I've always used 1x4 pine for my layout legs and framing with never a problem. Heck, for the past 15 years or so I've used the same 1x4's for several layouts and game tables. Two 1x4's attached at a 90 degree angle using 2" wood screws is about as solid a leg as you can come up with.
Mainetrains
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
mainetrainsI've always used 1x4 pine for my layout legs and framing with never a problem. Heck, for the past 15 years or so I've used the same 1x4's for several layouts and game tables. Two 1x4's attached at a 90 degree angle using 2" wood screws is about as solid a leg as you can come up with. Mainetrains
That's what I have used also. Recently, I experimented with 1x3's for legs in the L shape because I had some and they work well also.
Enjoy
Paul
I used 4x8 sheets of 3/4 plywood that I ripped into 3 1/2" boards. I also made the legs from the same boards, arranged in an L shape. It saved me a lot of money and everything is square and straight. I would not recomend doing this unless you own a table saw. Also, It adds a lot of extra labor to the process. I was willing to spend the extra time in order to save the money, which I preferred to spend on other train goodies. I built 2x4 foot tables, that I bolt together with carriage bolts. Everything can be unbolted and disassembled, so that I never have to build bench work again. At least I hope so.
My Yuba River Sub is built with 1x3" all the way--legs, braces and supports. But I'm also using 2" extruded foam as a base (with bracing every 12" under the foam) and though it's a fairly large garage layout (24x24') I haven't had any problems with warpage or sagging. But then all my scenery (and it extends about 4' above the 0' elevation of the layout and track is supported by WS risers and foam forms. It's light weight, but I wouldn't recommend my type of construction for anyone using a plywood base--I'd go a little thicker on the bracing lumber. But for my 'foam' Sierra Nevada, it's worked very well for me for the past 7 years.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Thank you all for the great ideas, especially about the metal studs. I'm an electrician, and have some experience using them. We'll see how it goes!
Dan, I did not read the answers that where posted I just skipped to reply.
DO NOT USE 2 X 4'S THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STRAIGHT ONE!!!!
If there where two things I could do over it would be the following.
No bench wider than 3 feet unless it is free standing.
Use 1 x 2 that are finished. Other words milled so they are straight.
Only thing worst than a 2 X 4 in model rail roading is a Tyco pancake motor engine.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
danadrien ... is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's?
... is the cost made up by using less of them than 1x4's?
Your spacing of members is going to be the same regardless of 1x or 2x, so theres no savings there. Also based on the 2x's at my local Home Despot, I would say they are more prone to warpage than the 1x's as they appear to have alot more moisture retention. Also 1x's are FAR easier to handle, cut, and screw together.
Have fun with your trains
I spent alot of time ripping 2x6's into 4 pieces for my layout just to save money. When I build my next layout I won't be. It was a waste of time. Spend the money for 2x4's or 1x4's and be done with it. Either 2x4 or 1x4 is going to cost about the same. And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
When I built my layout, I had the lumber yard rip sheets of 3/4" plywood into 3 inch strips. I also had them cut enough 4 inch strips to frame the outside of my layout. I used the 3 inch strips for the inside framing then attached the 4 inch strips to the outside with the bottom edges being the same. All joints were nailed, glued & braced as necessary. That gave me one inch between the top of the inside framing and the top of the outside pieces. I filled this with a 1/4 inch sheet of luan paneling and then a sheet of 3/4 inch sheet of blue foam. This made up the extra inch and everything was level at the sides.
I used 2x4s for the legs with some 1x2s cut for bracing. The layout is six years old and is rock solid.
Here's a link to my blog posting about building my framework. http://thecourier.typepad.com/alongtherightofway/2007/09/building-the-la.html
dlm
el-capitan And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges.
And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges.
I use blocks where the 2 pieces of plywood meet. Screws go in the blocks and not the ends.
For my 40x100cm n-scale modules (www.america-n.de) now abuilding I use 9mm plywood 10 cm high. I use 2 stiffeners to keep everything square and support the 9mm roadbed. It is quite sturdy once the roadbed is screwed on and 2 modules have already been moved by train across my (admittedly small) country.
greetings,
Marc Immeker
Sure you can! All of my benchwork is constructed using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped into 1x3" boards. All of my front boards are installed by driving 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws through the front board and into the ends of the wall bracket arms:
Of course, where extra support is needed I also try to use a join block of some type, but this is usually to provide a more convenient angle for driving the screws. Even in this piece screws have been driven into the edge of a board ripped from plywood:
Just use good judgement and you will end up with a sturdy design. Jamie
Jamie,
Did you counter-sink and/or pilot drill into the plywood to keep it from splitting?
Pasadena SubSure you can! All of my benchwork is constructed using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped into 1x3" boards. All of my front boards are installed by driving 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws through the front board and into the ends of the wall bracket arms:
Just because you 'can' screw into the end grain of solid wood or into the ply end of plywood doesn't mean you 'should' do it....using a fastener (nail or screw) in this manner results in a very weak joint. Using pocket hole joinery in your situation would result in much stronger joints.
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
John_PWH Jamie, Did you counter-sink and/or pilot drill into the plywood to keep it from splitting?
Yes, I predrilled pilot holes and countersunk every screw that went into the benchwork. Otherwise, as you indicate, the top layer of the plywood will just get a nasty split. BTW, for any considerable size job I highly recommend one of these:
My quick-change drill/driver is made by Ryobi and really saves time so you do not have to keep switching betweent the countersink bit and the driver. Just drill, flip, and drive.
Don Z Just because you 'can' screw into the end grain of solid wood or into the ply end of plywood doesn't mean you 'should' do it....using a fastener (nail or screw) in this manner results in a very weak joint. Using pocket hole joinery in your situation would result in much stronger joints. Don Z.
True, but depending on the situation, you can get into "overbuilding" real fast. For example, the front boards that I show above will only support the front edge of any scenery (which is only 16" deep at the deepest point, except for corners) and provide lateral stability to the arms of the wall brackets. As it is, I would feel secure displaying my prize cinder block collection on these shelves And no, I would not go into the end grain of a standard dimensional lumber (such as pine), but the comment I was referencing specifically targeted plywood boards. Jamie
Pasadena Sub el-capitan And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges. Sure you can! All of my benchwork is constructed using 3/4" cabinet grade plywood ripped into 1x3" boards. All of my front boards are installed by driving 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws through the front board and into the ends of the wall bracket arms:
I should expand on my original statement:
And cutting the plywood into strips can work, except I wouldn't because u can't put screws into the edges, if you are building your layout to support my weight.
I build classic L-girder benchwork and used 1x3 and 1x2 for my L-girders, I use 1x3 for joists, and 1x2 for risers. I used soft pine. It takes drywall screws without pilots.
Linn Wescott's book, "How to Build Model Railroad Benchwork" has a chart that shows what size lumber to use for a given span of distance between supports. I highly recommend this book.
Keep in mind the challenge in MRR benchwork is not strength.. its rigidity. Most benchwork is more then strong enough to support the weight put on it.The trick is to keep everything rigid so there is no sag or wobble. That has more to do with technique of construction then with using out-sized lumber. One more reason to consider the previously mentioned book.
Good luck!
Chris