What happened to the modeling urban thread?

[allaircooled]

What happened to the thread about modeling urban with graffiti on freight cars?  I was really interested in knowing why some modelers are so opposed to this and why its such a sore topic here.  I am planning on trying some graffiti on some of my cheap cars that I picked up at a show.  With a little graffiti, some weathering and dirt I think it will make a very realistic car.  Just trying to learn from you guys so please don't take this as me trying to convince you to change your opinion. 

[Red Horse]

My Guess would be that the thread was getting out of hand and the powers that be stepped on it before it got out of hand, I've seen it happen befor, oh well.

 

 

[MisterBeasley]

Yes, Jesse is probably right.  Forum rules forbid discussions of politics and religion, and maybe grafitti (and lawsuits among train manufacturers) are good topics to avoid as well.  It seems to be difficult to have a polite discussion of these topics.

[loathar]

The same thing that should happen to ALL graffiti threads. (FLUSH!) I think the words Graffiti and Tagging should be added to the cuss word list that gives you all ****when they post.

[Red Horse]

You crack me up with your replies "Flush" , yup, that thread did seem to be going into the gutter rather fast!!!

[tomikawaTT]

And now you know why there's a report abuse clicky at the lower right of each post.

I have used it in the past to alert the moderators to threads in inappropriate forums (full-scale train crashes in the MR forum instead of the Trains forum, toy train questions here instead of Classic Toy Trains.

Last night, when Mr. Spray-Can flamed Steinjr I figured it was time to pull the plug, and so informed the powers that be.  Apparently, the Moderator on Duty drove a stake through its heart.

As to why I am adamantly opposed to grafitti:

• I was taught as a very young child to respect the property of others.
• I learned as a very young man that any horse's butt can destroy, but only the creative can create.
• I followed a career track (traditional in my family) where conforming to standards is mandatory and deviation brings undesired consequences.
• My sub-career (aircraft maintenance) is even less tolerant of deviation from standards.
• I am aware that cleaning up after 'taggers' costs me money - a line item on my city utility bill.
• Finally, I model a prototype that existed in a time and at a place where socially unacceptable conduct was not condoned.  A 'tagger' would have found himself the immediate center of attention of a hard-nosed, no-nonsense O-Marisan and an unsympathetic magistrate.

Is it a surprise that the Old Sarge is opposed?  Not to anyone with one functional brain cell.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with one finger on the report abuse button)

[maxman]

I still say that the polite thing to do if a thread is to be removed is to allow the thread subject title to remain but remove all the postings.  The postings could be replaced with a posting stating that they had been removed, explanation optional.  That would help us old guys who forget where we saw stuff remain somewhat sane.

[selector]

That isn't a bad idea at all, Maxman, except that it would impose an inordinate amount of work on the mods.  Remember, we volunteer our time and service to you and the membership.  If we had to also sanitize entire threads, some of them eventually three and four pages long, but leave the title with an explanatory post below it, it would take some doing.  I suppose we could just delete the whole thing, and then repost on our own with the same title and the explanatory note...

[Rotorranch]

That's one thing I really don't like about this forum. Kalmbach is way too sensitive about things. If you post a link to something that may be a competitor of the big K, it gets pulled. If you post something about a competitor of one it's advertisers, it get's pulled. If you post something negative about MTH, it gets pulled.

I don't think the entire thread needs to be deleted, just the offending posts. Too many threads with good info get totally removed, denying the readers of what may have been useful to them.

I don't see this very much on the other model railroad forums I frequent.

I wish Kalmbach would lighten up a bit.

Just my

Rotor

[maxman]

That isn't a bad idea at all, Maxman, except that it would impose an inordinate amount of work on the mods.  Remember, we volunteer our time and service to you and the membership.  If we had to also sanitize entire threads, some of them eventually three and four pages long, but leave the title with an explanatory post below it, it would take some doing.  I suppose we could just delete the whole thing, and then repost on our own with the same title and the explanatory note...

I'm not suggesting that anything be sanitized.  If the thread needs to be exploded, so be it.  But if someone is going to be responsible for being the policeman or arbiter of what is correct, I don't think that the one extra step of at least acknowledging that the topic existed at one time would require that much more effort.  An example is: http://cs.trains.com/forums/9883/ShowPost.aspx

I don't know what could have been explosive about this topic, but that's not my business.  At least I could see that if there was something that caught my eye in the morning but didn't attempt to view until later had been deleted, I wouldn't be wasting a lot of time trying to find it under the three broad forum headings.

Again, the reasons for the deletions don't really require an explanation, except in maybe a few isolated instances.  An example of that would be a recent thread where one of the manufacturers was being taken to task.  That thread disappeared.  But then the "what happened to ..." thread also disappeared.  I personally think that the 53,000 or so members of this forum certainly deserved some explanation.  But then, that's my opinion.

Regards!

Edit: when I said I didn't know what could have been explosive about the topic, I was referring to the one in the link, not the modeling urban topic.

[doctorwayne]

I am as disgusted with graffiti as Chuck and many others here, but it is a (sad) fact of the times.  It goes back a long way, too.  While I don't mind if someone wishes to model this on their railroad, the original poster was, in my opinion, not especially competent and his attitude much too confrontational for a hobby forum.  That said, some of our experienced Members, again, in my opinion, reacted a little too fervently.  The point could have been made about disliking this type of activity in a more polite fashion, then the direction of the confrontation steered back towards the topic at hand, which was "ANYBODY MODEL URBAN!!!!!" (Sorry if I didn't use the correct number of !s. )  As I noted in my post there, urban means different things to different people, and we did get (a few) good pictures of urban modelling.  However, we let this one go down the tubes by rising to the bait of the OP, rather than rising above it.  

Wayne 

[dehusman]

Sad fact is that graffitti exists.  If you are modeling post 1980's and want to do it accurately you pretty much have to include it.

I model the 1900-1905 era and virtually all my fulled detailed models have chalk marks all across the bottoms of the sides.  Why do that?  Because that was the way they looked.

While I secretly wish somebody would go tag the cars and houses of all those who support graffitti as "art", I don't have a problem with it being on model cars in the appropriate era.  I model trash and debris piles.  Same thing.

Dave H.

[steinjr]

I am as disgusted with graffiti as Chuck and many others here, but it is a (sad) fact of the times.  It goes back a long way, too.  While I don't mind if someone wishes to model this on their railroad, the original poster was, in my opinion, not especially competent and his attitude much too confrontational for a hobby forum.  That said, some of our experienced Members, again, in my opinion, reacted a little too fervently. 

<snip> 

However, we let this one go down the tubes by rising to the bait of the OP, rather than rising above it.  

Wayne 

 

 

 Wayne, as always you make sense.

 

 CCrider's reaction was perhaps intemperate, but I acknowledge that an honest person justifiably can get angry about being accused of deliberately fishing for negative comments, if he or she is actully not deliberately trying to create a flamewar. 

 I do wish I had left my remarks to just trying to answer the general question posed by allaircooled - "why do some threads about grafitti cause such strong emotions?", and not in the same post having said anything about any specific posters.

 For making the error of judgement, I do apologize to the the forum members and to the moderators.

 And I agree that I would very much like to see a thread about "modelling urban railroading". 

 Stein

 

 

[tstage]

That's one thing I really don't like about this forum. Kalmbach is way too sensitive about things. If you post a link to something that may be a competitor of the big K, it gets pulled. If you post something about a competitor of one it's advertisers, it get's pulled. If you post something negative about MTH, it gets pulled.

I don't think the entire thread needs to be deleted, just the offending posts. Too many threads with good info get totally removed, denying the readers of what may have been useful to them.

I don't see this very much on the other model railroad forums I frequent.

I wish Kalmbach would lighten up a bit.

Just my

Rotor

Rotor,

Locking and/or deleting a thread is usually the last resort taken by the moderators.  If a thread can be "cleaned up" - i.e. the offending post or posts removed from the thread - by all means, that's the preferred method taken.  However, there are times when this is not practical because 1) the amount of posts needing deleted is just too many, and 2) deleting too many posts often fragments a thread until it becomes disjunct and/or difficult to follow and understand.

The few threads that are locked or deleted do become obvious to everyone.  However, there are often times threads that remain on the forum - where the offending posts have been removed - and sometimes the only one or ones who know that any infraction has even taken place is the moderator and the offending party.

As far as Kalmbach, EVERY forum has its rules and regulations.  Yes, Kalmbach may be more "strict" than other forums on the Net but that's the position they have taken.  They are a business and we are their guests.

Rotor, if I were to come over to your house, should you not expect me to comply to the rules that you have laid down for your household?  That's exactly the way it is here.  Kalmbach has graciously allowed us to "come into their home" and use their forum to discuss trains and model railroading.  We (and that includes the moderators) must comply with the rules that the "homeowner" has laid down.

As Walter Cronkite used to say, "And that's the way it is..."

Tom

[Driline]

I am as disgusted with graffiti as Chuck and many others here, but it is a (sad) fact of the times.  It goes back a long way, too.  While I don't mind if someone wishes to model this on their railroad, the original poster was, in my opinion, not especially competent and his attitude much too confrontational for a hobby forum.  That said, some of our experienced Members, again, in my opinion, reacted a little too fervently. 

<snip> 

However, we let this one go down the tubes by rising to the bait of the OP, rather than rising above it.  

Wayne 

 

 

  For making the error of judgement, I do apologize to the the forum members and to the moderators.

 And I agree that I would very much like to see a thread about "modelling urban railroading". 

 Stein

 

 

Apology accepted Captain Needa

[Driline]

That's one thing I really don't like about this forum. Kalmbach is way too sensitive about things. If you post a link to something that may be a competitor of the big K, it gets pulled. If you post something about a competitor of one it's advertisers, it get's pulled. If you post something negative about MTH, it gets pulled.

I don't think the entire thread needs to be deleted, just the offending posts. Too many threads with good info get totally removed, denying the readers of what may have been useful to them.

I don't see this very much on the other model railroad forums I frequent.

I wish Kalmbach would lighten up a bit.

Just my

Rotor

As far as Kalmbach, EVERY forum has its rules and regulations.  Yes, Kalmbach may be more "strict" than other forums on the Net but that's the position they have taken.  They are a business and we are their guests.

Tom

I can't tell if its Kalmbach thats "strict" or just you and Crandell. How are we to know?

[allaircooled]

Sad fact is that graffitti exists.  If you are modeling post 1980's and want to do it accurately you pretty much have to include it.

I model the 1900-1905 era and virtually all my fulled detailed models have chalk marks all across the bottoms of the sides.  Why do that?  Because that was the way they looked.

While I secretly wish somebody would go tag the cars and houses of all those who support graffitti as "art", I don't have a problem with it being on model cars in the appropriate era.  I model trash and debris piles.  Same thing.

Dave H.

 

That is what I was thinking.  I am trying to model the current time.  Figured graffiti is on the trains I see.  Don't necessary like it but its there.  I think for a little more realism it does the job.  I don't support graffiti just thought I would model it just like I don't necessary think dirty trains look good but they are in fact dirty!  I can understand how people are disgusted buy the real thing but this is just a model and I am not in some gang.

Thanks for the replies.  I will try to post pics of my graffitied car when I get one done so it can be bashed. 

[Driline]

Sad fact is that graffitti exists.  If you are modeling post 1980's and want to do it accurately you pretty much have to include it.

I model the 1900-1905 era and virtually all my fulled detailed models have chalk marks all across the bottoms of the sides.  Why do that?  Because that was the way they looked.

While I secretly wish somebody would go tag the cars and houses of all those who support graffitti as "art", I don't have a problem with it being on model cars in the appropriate era.  I model trash and debris piles.  Same thing.

Dave H.

 

That is what I was thinking.  I am trying to model the current time.  Figured graffiti is on the trains I see.  Don't necessary like it but its there.  I think for a little more realism it does the job.  I don't support graffiti just thought I would model it just like I don't necessary think dirty trains look good but they are in fact dirty!  I can understand how people are disgusted buy the real thing but this is just a model and I am not in some gang.

Thanks for the replies.  I will try to post pics of my graffitied car when I get one done so it can be bashed. 

You might want to try "modeltrainsweathered" forum and check them out. They are master model weather craftsman and they also model grafitti quite well. When I want to increase my modelling skills I post there.

[BlueHillsCPR]

That's one thing I really don't like about this forum. Kalmbach is way too sensitive about things. If you post a link to something that may be a competitor of the big K, it gets pulled. If you post something about a competitor of one it's advertisers, it get's pulled. If you post something negative about MTH, it gets pulled.

I don't think the entire thread needs to be deleted, just the offending posts. Too many threads with good info get totally removed, denying the readers of what may have been useful to them.

I don't see this very much on the other model railroad forums I frequent.

I wish Kalmbach would lighten up a bit.

Just my

Rotor

 

HEAR HEAR!!!

[tomikawaTT]

In the case of the thread in question, if only the offending posts had been removed the entire thread would have fallen apart.  You can't just cut down the trunk and leave the rest of the tree standing.

I do regret losing the city scenes that were deleted - but we all overlooked the obvious.  Just because there hasn't been too much Troll activity lately doesn't mean we should forget the most obvious precaution...

Don't feed the Troll.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[BRJN]

Hmmmm, I posted a (roughly) on-topic reply and head off for a good night's sleep; when I come back the next day the whole thread is gone and people say it's been exploded.

I have struck again.  Bwa-ha-ha. 

[Courage8]

I'd like to see more of any photos people might have of night operations - those neon-looking signs were great!

[tstage]

As far as Kalmbach, EVERY forum has its rules and regulations.  Yes, Kalmbach may be more "strict" than other forums on the Net but that's the position they have taken.  They are a business and we are their guests.

Tom

I can't tell if its Kalmbach thats "strict" or just you and Crandell. How are we to know?

Frank,

Here's the link to the Forum policy page.  We use that as our guideline and have to abide by it just like everyone else.

Tom

[steinjr]

 Guys -

 I know that metathreads about the moderators, freedom of speech, manners, cost of living and so and so forth usually goes on far, far longer than threads about actual model railroading.

 Nevertheless - I have tried to atone somewhat for my part in having the previous modelling urban thread implode by creating a new thread in the Layouts and layout building where I invite people to post about modelling urban scenes.

 I have started out by posting links to a few good books on the subject and links to 10 urban railroad modelling layouts I have found inspirational, and I invite others to post their links and their thoughts on the subject in that thread.

 Direct link to the new thread: http://cs.trains.com/forums/1523271/ShowPost.aspx

 Sorry for the interuption - you may now continue down the usual track for round 437 of the great "my freedom of speech should not be impinged upon in any way by anyone" vs "freedom of the press belongs to those who actually go to the effort to buy and set up their own press" debate

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[selector]

<quoted material not included>

I can't tell if its Kalmbach thats "strict" or just you and Crandell. How are we to know?

There is a surefire way to find out.  Report us, just as you would report an abuse of another sort, and ask Bergie to look into it.  You are sure to get a reply.  None of the user-mods is above the policy.  We work as closely with Bergie as we can.  When we stray, he lets us know right quick.  If anyone reading here feels the mods are too heavy or personal in their approach to their service, you are invited to submit a complaint via PM, email, or a report of abuse using the links provided.

[doctorwayne]

Personally, I find that the quality of the Forum has improved since we got the Mods.  There are fewer arguements and confrontational situations, and fewer people bashing someone else's efforts.  It's almost as if some of us needed only to be reminded of our manners.   As a result, I think that this is a much nicer place to visit and to share information.

Wayne

[loathar]

Personally, I find that the quality of the Forum has improved since we got the Mods.  There are fewer arguements and confrontational situations, and fewer people bashing someone else's efforts.  It's almost as if some of us needed only to be reminded of our manners.   As a result, I think that this is a much nicer place to visit and to share information.

Wayne

Mega Ditto!!

[allaircooled]

You might want to try "modeltrainsweathered" forum and check them out. They are master model weather craftsman and they also model grafitti quite well. When I want to increase my modelling skills I post there.

Thanks for pointing me to that site. Bookmarked it in my favorites.

[Driline]

<quoted material not included>

I can't tell if its Kalmbach thats "strict" or just you and Crandell. How are we to know?

There is a surefire way to find out.  Report us, just as you would report an abuse of another sort, and ask Bergie to look into it.  You are sure to get a reply.  None of the user-mods is above the policy.  We work as closely with Bergie as we can.  When we stray, he lets us know right quick.  If anyone reading here feels the mods are too heavy or personal in their approach to their service, you are invited to submit a complaint via PM, email, or a report of abuse using the links provided.

Well then. You are correct. Its not your strict heavy hand but Bergies style of forum management.

[marknewton]

I will try to post pics of my graffitied car when I get one done so it can be bashed. 

I don't think people "bashed" ccrider because he posted pics of a graffitied car. It was because he presented as an utter twerp, and his modelling was very ordinary, contradicting his claim to be a well-paid professional.

Cheers,

Mark.