wp8thsub zstripe ...I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails. I strongly suspect this as well. Unless something really unusual is at work, I just don't see wheels on any of the locos the OP listed being able to short on Atlas turnouts. I've never seen it happen. I went to my train room for grins and measured the gaps on Atlas code 100 and 83 turnouts, and none of them were anywhere near close enough for any of the wheels I have to short across them after departing the frog. I HAVE seen plenty of cases of contact being lost through the points, which, combined with the dead frog, results in hesitation as the affected side of the loco has one truck on the frog and the other on the dead point rail. This problem can be exacerbated by the tendency of Atlas frog castings to be too high, which leads to further loss of contact as the truck goes over the frog and lifts wheels off the adjacent rails (unless you file the casting flush). This issue especially affects three axle trucks. Proper diagnosis is key. I hope the OP takes the advice previously given above to rule out an open before modifying to correct a short that isn't there.
zstripe ...I believe He is experiencing loss of power at the unpowered frog of the Atlas turnout and He is calling it a short, rather than an open....Loss of power. I have never experienced any type of shorts on Atlas custom line turnouts, in all the umteen yrs. I've been using them...especially wheel threads bridging rails.
I strongly suspect this as well. Unless something really unusual is at work, I just don't see wheels on any of the locos the OP listed being able to short on Atlas turnouts. I've never seen it happen. I went to my train room for grins and measured the gaps on Atlas code 100 and 83 turnouts, and none of them were anywhere near close enough for any of the wheels I have to short across them after departing the frog.
I HAVE seen plenty of cases of contact being lost through the points, which, combined with the dead frog, results in hesitation as the affected side of the loco has one truck on the frog and the other on the dead point rail. This problem can be exacerbated by the tendency of Atlas frog castings to be too high, which leads to further loss of contact as the truck goes over the frog and lifts wheels off the adjacent rails (unless you file the casting flush). This issue especially affects three axle trucks. Proper diagnosis is key. I hope the OP takes the advice previously given above to rule out an open before modifying to correct a short that isn't there.
Sorry to be so late, I thought I had the problem solved, but it has re-appeared.
I am running six wheeled trucks, and the problem appears when the lead wheel of the lead truck crosses the frog. Since these are insulated (dead) frogs, I am wondering how best to power them, in place, since they are already mounted.
Can I solder a wire to the frog, and use the Tortoise contacts to power it? Are the metal frogs made of Nickle silver or "pot metal?" I have the ability to drill through the roadbed and bench work.
RicZ
Solder will not work. Get some 3-48 screws and tap the frog for them. then just solder the feeder wire to the screw. Atlas sells a 3-48 screw and brass contact strip just for this...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
RicZCan I solder a wire to the frog, and use the Tortoise contacts to power it? Are the metal frogs made of Nickle silver or "pot metal?"
Follow Jim Bernier's advice on using screws. Atlas frogs are pot metal and will not accept solder (unless you have access to a plating tool and can apply plating to the pot metal).
Rob Spangler
jrbernier Solder will not work. Get some 3-48 screws and tap the frog for them. then just solder the feeder wire to the screw. Atlas sells a 3-48 screw and brass contact strip just for this...
Pretty sure I just used Hob-Bits 1-72 brass screws for my turnouts. Didn't have to tap the hole, just screwed them in, but I did it at the workbench and made sure I was not putting pressure on the frog - it was supported by the bench. I did mine upside down, ran the screw in until the bottom was flush with the top of the frog, and hit the exposed surface with flat black to hide the brass color.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Randy, I tried the 1-72 screws and they are too loose; 3-48 screws are way too large, so tried to tap the hole with a 2-56 tap -- it works, and the hole is large enough to allow a 1/16 drill to fit. I can drill through the sub-toad bed and 1/12 inch plywood to string the wire up through to be soldered to the screw.
Comments?
I'll have to pull one of my turnouts and take the screw out (I never hooked the frog powe rup - ended up not needing to, even my smallest loco ran over the dead frogs no problem). I am quite sure it is a 1-72, it's smaller than the 2-56's used for kadee couplers. My turnouts are Code 83 ones, there may be a difference. A 1-72 most definitely was not too loose, it actually took a little effort to drive it in. A 2-56 tap took up almost the entire circle of metal, and as brittle as that stuff is it probably would have broken out. May be a difference between the different items, again, my turnouts were custom line code 83 #4's from prior to the move to China. If yours are newer or older, or code 100, might be different.
rrinker I'll have to pull one of my turnouts and take the screw out (I never hooked the frog powe rup - ended up not needing to, even my smallest loco ran over the dead frogs no problem). I am quite sure it is a 1-72, it's smaller than the 2-56's used for kadee couplers. My turnouts are Code 83 ones, there may be a difference. A 1-72 most definitely was not too loose, it actually took a little effort to drive it in. A 2-56 tap took up almost the entire circle of metal, and as brittle as that stuff is it probably would have broken out. May be a difference between the different items, again, my turnouts were custom line code 83 #4's from prior to the move to China. If yours are newer or older, or code 100, might be different. --Randy
i'll give them another try. Not sure about the origin of my turnouts as they were purchased (for the most part) during Atlas' move into China. 2011-2013.
(Friday, 11/4/16) I checked several turnouts last night and found that there is a difference in the size of the hole. Using the butt end of a 1/16 Jan drill bit, which fit through the first turnout, I tried it on two additional turnouts. The drill bit fit in the second turnout, but would not fit in the third.
Based on this, I think the 1-72 screw would fit the smaller hole, but the 2-56 screw did fit the first and second turnouts (after carefully tapping). There definitely is a difference.
Since the turnouts are already mounted on the layout, I plan to tap the holes and solder a wire to the screw to power the turnout frog.
Thoughts?
On a second note, what are the similar problems encountered on Walthers turnouts (I have one double crossover), and Peco turnouts ( I have 2 code 83 curved turnouts)?
See previous note.
That frog casting is designed for a 3-48 screw - Get a set of taps and tap it with 3-48 threads. I can jam a 2-56 screw in there, but half of the time the casting break.
BTW, Atlas was making track in China long before 2011. That shortage was due to having to leave the Kador factory and setup their own factory...
Jim, I am a bit confused. Isn't the diameter of a 3-48 larger than a 2-56?
RocZ
Yeah, you have it backwards Jim. The next smaller than a 2-56 is a 1-72 (in commooonly available US measurement sizes). 3-48 is getting big. 0 and 00 are the real tiny ones. It's opposite of wire - screws, the smaller the number, the smaller the diameter, but wire, the bigger the number, the smaller it is.
If clear Atlas changed something in the process. Mine are all older and all took the 1-72 (wonder if they changed the hardware they include with the Snap Relay). That's another way to do it - Atlas used to, hopefully still does, sell the nut, bolt, and brass strip that is used to connect the Deluxe Undertable machine to the frog (the Delux machine has contacts built in, as well as the pin for the throwbar). If you're able to tap the holes your idea should work fine, it's just that it will be fairly visibile, However, short of ripping up the turnout and applying a wire from the bottom there's not much else you can do.
Older Walthers and the Shinohara branded turnouts are more complex and need more work. Check the Wiring for DCC site, it shows what needs to be done. Newer Walthers it's only a matter of soldering a wire to the frog, it's made of the same material as the rails and thus takes solder like a piece of track.
Thanks, Randy and Jim. You guys have been a great help.
I am a bit late to this thread, but wanted to throw my in. I model in N scale and use exclusively Peco "#6" (medium radius) turnouts. I have the same problem as stated in the original post--shorts past the frog--as stated in the original post. My problem is not a dead spot as some above have suggested. I use automotive lightbulbs for "short management" so I know exactly when there is a short. What I figured out was that is was only Atlas locomotives that shorted across the diverging rails past the frog. I used the fingermail polish trick and voila, no more short.
Ron
Owner and superintendant of the N scale Texas Colorado & Western Railway, a protolanced representaion of the BNSF from Fort Worth, TX through Wichita Falls TX and into Colorado.
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