I've officially gone Nuts! ...just consider my new track plan

[vsmith]

Been discussing this elsewhere, thought I'd share my insanity over here as well...

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/HOUSE-Outdoor%20Layout%201-27-07.pdf

I am considering this for my outdoor layout, its R1, & has 5% grades.

I should point out that some of my favorite RRs are the Uintah RR, the Gilpin Tramway, the Mt Tam RR, and the Darjeeling Himalayan RR. All renown for their insane trackage and grades. Sorry, but that's what I really like and have always wanted to model.

Now rolling stock will be small lokies hauling smaller ore cars, I've been testing my stuff on a 7%+ grades and its been A-OK so far.

Max. vertical distance should be about 20 inches total. Stepping stones will be placed throughout during construction and yes that is a fence behind. I should have easy access to most all of the layout.

The way I envisioned operation, Heckaweh is the mining center, Borracho the freight center. I want to keep the trains short and light. At Heckaweh the ore trains (Loco & 3 or 4 empty ore cars) would be assembled at Heckaweh, run up the mountain, and then switched onto the siding and leave the string there at the mine. If I had to pick up a string of loads while delivering empties, the "brakes" (an icepick jambed in the ground behind the cars) would be set, the engine uncoupled, then when the loco has picked up the "loaded" cars, they would couple on the empties on the end then drag then up and switch them onto the mine siding for loading. Then the train would either back down the hill to Heckaweh to drop off cars on one of the sidings, or continue over the mountain to drop off the car at the mills near Borracho. The 'loaded' cars dropped off at Heckaweh would the be moved either back over the mountain or thru the tunnel to the Borracho mills. Freight trains (larger loco & 2 or 3 freight cars)would be 'assembled' (actually or just set down like a staging siding) at Borracho and run up the mountain to make 'flag stops' (stop for a short time) at the various places on the route, occasionally to drop a supply car off at a mine using the switching 'technic' described above. the train would then run thru to Heckaweh, where if I chose the engine would transfer to the back of the train and would then pull it back over the mountain back to Borracho, or just thru tunnel 4 back to Borracho.

Tunnel #4 is the 'cheat' point. If I want to run a more prototypical point to point operation the thru point of the tunnel doesnt exist. But if I want to run continuously, tunnel 4 is my way to do so. Best of both worlds? I still have some more trackwork to do at the Borracho yard, namely a passing siding. I'll figure it.

I also have some real issues with just what am I going to do under the track, I think I might want to consider either a wood or concrete substructure to give the track additional support although the rock 'mountains' might be more than sufficient support, well see.

 

The voices in my head keep encouraging me

[Anonymous]

Vic;

Don't do it mate, i have 4 % with an R2 curve and several R3 curves and i wish i didn't have them, many problems as time goes on and you wish to different things.

Even having these types of grades is a good argument for MTS, ie maximum voltage improves totque and the MTS memory function will stop runaways.

You will find the amount of waggons you can pull will be reduced and the effect of dirty tracks will be amplified out of all proportion. As well you will have your trains tend to run backward down hill if you stop and take the power off.

Would you like to send me your details and i will see what i can do to offer alternatives.

Rgds Your mate Ian

[ttrigg]

I am considering this for my outdoor layout, its R1, & has 5% grades.

.......Sorry, but that's what I really like and have always wanted to model.

Now rolling stock will be small lokies hauling smaller ore cars, I've been testing my stuff on a 7%+ grades and its been A-OK so far.

The voices in my head keep encouraging me

Knowing that you fully understand the draw backs of high slopes mixed with tight curves, and are willing to play within that very limited rule set. Plus the fact that you have established "test track" to check the functionality of your equipment, however, you did not state if you had included any R1 trackage in this "test slope". If you did not include the cure in your test, then I would ask you to go back and test it again.

With your extensive Loco bashing skills, I'm sure you could easily "bash in" a "cog/rack" gearing system. Much as I plan on doing for the streetcar/tram line to the top of Rosebud Falls. When I did my "slope testing" I included a 6.5 ft diameter curve in my test track, as that was the predetermined curve leading into the grade.

Why apologize, if this is truly what you want to do then go for it.

Think I've been hearing the same little voice! 

 

Almost forgot - The plan - looks like a lot of fun packed into such a small place! 

 

I know Ian is going to lambaste me for tell you to go for it, but I believe you have enough experience in this hobby to fully understand the limitations you are imposing upon yourself. Go have fun!!!!! Want lots of pics!!!!!!!!!!! 

[ttrigg]

Upon closer examination of the plans, I would ask one question. Is that the rusting carcass of an old engine I see down in the distance at Salt Canyon near Bridge 1?

[underworld]

It does look cool on paper....I'm not sure about the grades.

underworld

[vsmith]

I figure given the short consists i plan to use I should be OK, but next up will be full sized mock ups of a couple of the worst spots and then experiments with various stock, we'll see how that goes. I'm not going to rush this layout.

[MTCarpenter]

The voices are correct.  The voices are ALWAYS correct :)

Looks like a cool challenge.  I say go for it and PLEASE post pics as you go along.

[underworld]

For the steep grades you might consider a cog railway.

 

 

underworld

[ttrigg]

I figure given the short consists I plan to use I should be OK, but next up will be full sized mock ups of a couple of the worst spots and then experiments with various stock, we'll see how that goes. I'm not going to rush this layout.

Vic;
Nice to see your plan, but you got me in trouble.  I printed it and was looking at during the commercials on the tube last night.  The wife wanted a look, and then asked "Why doesn't ours go all twisty and turney like this?"  To which I replied "It could but that would mean filling in the Koi Pond!"  She responded "NO you don't, but maybe we could find some ground over on the other side of the patio."  THANKS A WHOLE BUNCH, VIC!  As it is it will take me another 3~4 years to finish the current plan, and now she wants to add more!  Again THANKS A WHOLE BUNCH!


But she did say she would look into getting a "cog"/rack engine in the near future after I told her that LGB had discontinued production of their rack drive engine. 

[underworld]

The cog railway should be a lot of fun!!!

 

underworld

[Anonymous]

Tom mate.

I am not going to lambaste you because i don't fully know what it means but i have a fair idea though.

I still would advise against it, not just the grades and the curves but to have a dozen sets of points in that area would be a nightmare, really good expensive points will alleviate the situation some though but it will still be trouble.

Vic you Americans have invented a type of layout called a double or folded dog bone and it is the best you can have for a small layout; i have one in my area 3 and it has its problems but basically it works well.

If you are interested i will get a set of pics posted for you top ahve a look at. 60 m track in 21 m2 and it looks good. I can also advise of the page in the bible where it is drawn up.

Rgds Ian

[vsmith]

I figure given the short consists I plan to use I should be OK, but next up will be full sized mock ups of a couple of the worst spots and then experiments with various stock, we'll see how that goes. I'm not going to rush this layout.

Vic;
Nice to see your plan, but you got me in trouble.  I printed it and was looking at during the commercials on the tube last night.  The wife wanted a look, and then asked "Why doesn't ours go all twisty and turney like this?"  To which I replied "It could but that would mean filling in the Koi Pond!"  She responded "NO you don't, but maybe we could find some ground over on the other side of the patio."  THANKS A WHOLE BUNCH, VIC!  As it is it will take me another 3~4 years to finish the current plan, and now she wants to add more!  Again THANKS A WHOLE BUNCH!


But she did say she would look into getting a "cog"/rack engine in the near future after I told her that LGB had discontinued production of their rack drive engine. 

This is a historic first here....someone's wife wants to expand the layout and he's complaining about it..LMAO

[vsmith]

Tom mate.

I am not going to lambaste you because i don't fully know what it means but i have a fair idea though.

I still would advise against it, not just the grades and the curves but to have a dozen sets of points in that area would be a nightmare, really good expensive points will alleviate the situation some though but it will still be trouble.

Vic you Americans have invented a type of layout called a double or folded dog bone and it is the best you can have for a small layout; i have one in my area 3 and it has its problems but basically it works well.

If you are interested i will get a set of pics posted for you top ahve a look at. 60 m track in 21 m2 and it looks good. I can also advise of the page in the bible where it is drawn up.

Rgds Ian

[vsmith]

Just so you all understand just what my vision is...maybe these will help

Darjeeling RR

http://www.dhr.in/PHOTO%20GALLERY/SOME%20PHOTOGRAPHS%20OF%20DHR/loop3.jpg

http://www.dhr.in/PHOTO%20GALLERY/SOME%20PHOTOGRAPHS%20OF%20DHR/batasia.jpg

Uintah RR

http://home.bresnan.net/~bpratt15/images/UintahMoroCastle.jpg

Mt  Tam Scenic RR

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/mrtama01.jpg

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/mrtama04.jpg

http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/mrtama03.jpg

Cass Scenic RR

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7dc20b3127cce816fe3e10f7400000016109QZOXDhs4U

Gilpin RR

http://www.gilpintram.com/images/gilpin-tram-5.jpg

http://www.gilpintram.com/images/castleton%20mone%20and%20castle%20rock.jpg

Arizona Copper Co. RR

http://www.vintagephoto.com/reference/coppercreekarticle/cc3.jpg

http://www.vintagephoto.com/reference/coppercreekarticle/cc2.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

Ah well, good luck anyway.

Rgds Ian

[underworld]

I've always liked the Darjeeling....that pic of the Cass looks more like a shot of a roller coaster!!!

underworld

[ttrigg]

Vic;

Like I said, that plan is going to be a challenge to build.  Keeping the rails level with all those curving slopes.  But after construction and tweaking it a bit, it should be tons of fun to run.

Now get out there (after the rain passes) and start playing in the mud!

[Anonymous]

I am with you on that one Tom, and I cannot stress enough the importance of getting your camber correct particularly with regard to points (switches).

Rgds ian

[John Busby]

Hi Vic

Is it possible to do it with a min radius of R2 instead of R1.

You might consider some of these in 45mm gauge 

http://www.ipengineering.co.uk/page85.html 

regards John

[Railfan1]

  I've gone nuts!

It happens

[underworld]

How is the project coming along???

 

underworld

[Railfan1]

[vsmith]

Hi all,

I've just been testing items in my 5%+ test track, I need to add a transition piece ffrom level to grade and test my larger stock on it, I might need to fabricate a verticly curved transition peice. Anyway, as I said, I'm in no hurry, so testing continues....

John, R2s would increase the layout by 20%, and I just dont have the real estate.

[vsmith]

Testing reveals a few (not so) surprises.

I built a "test rig" consisting of a full circle of R1 track that simply ends above where it begins, with an elevated straight track on the up side and a curve off at the bottom. Its based on a plywood deck,w/ 1x legs cut to size and layed on the concrete floor of the garage, its a perfect torture rack to test my stock.

While I can run all of my 4 wheeled and geared type locos over the kink created when level track turns to the grade, my rod engines will require some sort of transitional easement. I'll have to try bend a straight or a curve to get about a 1/2" vertical transition on each one and see just how hard that is. My other option is to simply buy short sectional peices, LGB sells shorts where 4 short peices will make up a 12" straight or R1 curve. That way I just let the small amount of vertical flex at the joints create my transitional easement. More to come on this.

My Buddy L engine is going for sale if anyone's interested. It was a crapper that always needed perfect dead level track or the drivers would get lifted off the track by the pilot and trailing wheels. By you should see it flail on the torture rack! It was OK enough for my original flat dogbone, but on this it will be worthless, it doesnt even like the R1 curves - so off it goes!

Tested the 4-4-0 and all it looks like it will need is a transitional easement of about 1/2 inch verticaly curved from level to grade to allow the pilot wheels to track. If I get the 4-4-0 to run trouble free then the Annie should also be OK, but I'll double check. I figure the Annie will be the biggest rod loco to run on the layout. Otherwise so far what I've tested passes the worst kink test.

Next thing to "BIG" issue to consider, to keep everything "on the bubble" I'm going to need some sort of stringer support under the track to hold grade and level issues in check, now what to use is th $64 dollar question. I'm going to need a "stringer and post" system to support the track, I dont think concrete would be practical given the twist and grades of my line. I like the plywood underlayment on my torture rack, its cut to shape easily connected and the 1x legs under would be a great way to anchor the track into the ground, I was thinking of simply adding another 1x stringer under the plywood between the legs, coating the whole thing in wood preservative before installation. I dont know how many years of use I'd get out of it.

I'm too tight radiuswise to consider a ladder system, do you want to try bending even 3/4" wood to a 24"R ? Neither do I. Too bad the track systems like Mainline Enterprises all seam to have gone under, I might have considered that....

Try to post some pics of the torture rack.

[vsmith]

Plan updated, more detail with grades shown.
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/HOUSE-Outdoor%20Layout%2002-07-07.pdf

[underworld]

Looks like you are coming right along!!!

underworld

[dwbeckett]

That is a very aggressive track plan. I would use 1x6 ceader fence boards for track support with side elevation on the turns. to help with the transitions attach all sub-sections to each other, such as a complete loop starting and ending with a strate. wet down the wood and start adding spacers till you get the hight you need, then repeat .weting the ceader will allow it to bend.try it you will like the results.

 

 

[vsmith]

Just a couple of pics of the torture track. This is the worst grade on the layout, so far I've found a couple engines I'll need to add weight to for better traction. The last pics shows the kerfed rails on the easment section from grade to level, theres another corved easement at the bottom going into a reverse S curve, I wont have any but I figure thats a great way to test my engines

[dwbeckett]

look's good so far BUT

---

I hope you are not planing to use chip board outside it will NOT last long. I am currently replacing 15/32" chip board with 3/4" ply ( leftover's from some built-in projects ). post some more Pix when you have some.

[S&G Rute of the Silver River]

I like it big grades, small stock, I can see it now......  

                                          (warning BS story comming)

                   ...... The headlines of the Borracho News (the paper) Engeneer fired for spilling coffie!!  Will "can do" Tomelson was fired yesterday after taking the owner of the (incert RR name here) railroad in his private inspection car and traveling up the spectacular five persent grades the new coffie machene fell over and sailed out the back wall. It was later recovered but not before old Mr. Tomelson had lost his olny job. Forentally this event has caused an uproar in the local union and undoubtly this will be setteled peacifully.   

Now wasn't that a good story?